Roger Clemens Trial

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Dr. Maserati

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eleven said:
Because RR claimed that Armstrong was "far more popular" during the relevant period, pre trial, than Clemens. I pointed out that Clemens was the 7x Cy Young Award Winner, one of the top All Star vote-getters each year, and renowned nationwide as the best pitcher of his generation. I assure you more people are aware of Clemens pitching career than Armstrong's racing career.
Ya, and RR is right and you are wrong.

You even admit Clemens was popular - Armstrong even as things unravel remains somewhat popular not because of his sporting achievements but because of his 'cancer awareness'

eleven said:
No, the judge has not ruled. RR made it sound as if his ruling would be obvious, that this is clearly not double jeopardy. (I made no such claim of fact).

As proof, he cited a single case. That case is not the settled law, as legal experts and other case law demonstrate.
And you made it sound that the Judge had ruled.

Also your (proof) opinion was from a website that when I searched gave a very different view on what 'double jeopardy' is.
Will lawyers argue it, yes. Will they win - highly unlikely.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
What?
Why would someones popularity from years before have any bearing?
The only timeframe is when the claims were made against him.

Only insomuch as someone else claimed that Armstrong was "far more popular" than a 7x Cy Young award winner in America's most popular sport, a fan-vote all star starter for the better part of two decades and a man widely believed to be the greatest pitcher of his generation - who was disliked in exactly one city, where he was "in the twilight of his career".

To your second point - the judge has ruled, well that settles it - what did they rule?

If you actually read the previous posts, you'll see that I'm not the one claiming that the issue of Double Jeopardy is all but settled - that was, in fact, Race Radio. I simply pointed out that there is no settled case law and it is still an open question, as evinced by the cases and scenarios from Findlaw.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
Ya, and RR is right and you are wrong.
I certainly wouldn't expect anything else!

You even admit Clemens was popular - Armstrong even as things unravel remains somewhat popular not because of his sporting achievements but because of his 'cancer awareness'

Clemens was popular, yes indeed. More popular than Armstrong.


And you made it sound that the Judge had ruled.

Did you actually read a single word of what I posted? I don't think so. Instead of claiming factual proof of one scenario or another, I produced three separate versions of the current understanding of double jeopardy.

RR produced one.

And somehow I am the one making it sound as if the judge had ruled. Unreal.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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eleven said:

You are not American are you? If you were you would know that Baseball is far from "America's most popular sport". Both College and NFL football are far more popular. The Final 4 regularly has better ratings then the World series

You would also know that even during his playing days Bonds was widely disliked, even by his home town fans. Clemens has been a slow moving train wreak for the last 7 years. These days he is seen as a punch line then anyone to look up to.

My point was clear. Because the myth surrounding Armstrong is far stronger the prosecution has to be very sure of their case. As we have seen here on this forum people are often willing to suspend rational thought when it comes to Wonderboy. Barry and Roger do not have this luxury
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Race Radio said:
You are not American are you? If you were you would know that Baseball is far from "America's most popular sport". Both College and NFL football are far more popular. The Final 4 regularly has better ratings then the World series

Yes, I'm American. Baseball sells more tickets than any other sport. It has the longest history in the US and its players are top paid of any sport.

You would also know that even during his playing days Bonds was widely disliked, even by his home town fans. Clemens has been a slow moving train wreak for the last 7 years. These days he is seen as a punch line then anyone to look up to.

Bonds was loved in Pittsburgh and generally liked in SFO, though his interactions with the press made him far from loveable. But wildly popular.

Clemens was the greatest pitcher of his generation - adored by fans, the press and his team. He was routinely at the top of fan voting for the all-star game.

My point was clear. Because the myth surrounding Armstrong is far stronger the prosecution has to be very sure of their case. As we have seen here on this forum people are often willing to suspend rational thought when it comes to Wonderboy. Barry and Roger do not have this luxury

If you expect the prosecution to be "very sure of its case", I would suggest you don't know how the system works. Especially in these types of investigations. There are a laundry list of similar cases where the prosecution plied ahead with a less-than-certain case and used that uncertainty to provoke other illegalities.
 

Dr. Maserati

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eleven said:
Yes, I'm American. Baseball sells more tickets than any other sport. It has the longest history in the US and its players are top paid of any sport.



Bonds was loved in Pittsburgh and generally liked in SFO, though his interactions with the press made him far from loveable. But wildly popular.

Clemens was the greatest pitcher of his generation - adored by fans, the press and his team. He was routinely at the top of fan voting for the all-star game.
In baseball - as in most team sports that are affiliated with a city or district -players are 'liked' by the fans of that team and usually despised by everyone else. Which you acknowledge by listing cities.

Armstrong had broad appeal in the US because he was a US athlete against other nations - particularly the French, which he played up to.
Add to that the impression that he does a lot for cancer makes him a far more popular figure to neutral fans.

eleven said:
If you expect the prosecution to be "very sure of its case", I would suggest you don't know how the system works. Especially in these types of investigations. There are a laundry list of similar cases where the prosecution plied ahead with a less-than-certain case and used that uncertainty to provoke other illegalities.
Of course they will be sure of their case - otherwise they will not go ahead with it.
We have seen this case grow and that multiple agencies are now involved and that they have been fairly quietly gathering evidence and statements through the GJ system.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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eleven said:
Yes, I'm American. Baseball sells more tickets than any other sport. It has the longest history in the US and its players are top paid of any sport.



Bonds was loved in Pittsburgh and generally liked in SFO, though his interactions with the press made him far from loveable. But wildly popular.

Clemens was the greatest pitcher of his generation - adored by fans, the press and his team. He was routinely at the top of fan voting for the all-star game.



If you expect the prosecution to be "very sure of its case", I would suggest you don't know how the system works. Especially in these types of investigations. There are a laundry list of similar cases where the prosecution plied ahead with a less-than-certain case and used that uncertainty to provoke other illegalities.

Wrong, College football sells more tickets then any other sport.

It appears you still do not get it, perhaps intentionally? It does not matter what some fan thought about Barry or Roger 15 years ago, it matters what juries think of them today. As I said I think the Feds will not file as many charges as they could with Lance because there is a large section of the population that suspends rational thought when it comes to Lance. Barry and Roger do not have that luxury.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Race Radio said:
Novitzky is not a lawyer. Doug Miller runs the Armstrong case

How would "Double Jeopardy" come into play if there was no trial? Do you have a link for your claim of "over a 100 different federal investigators"? One that does not come from Clemens Media Disinformation campaign?

RR since you ask, you may not like the answer.

Jeopardy attaches once the jurors are selected and sworn in. So no doubt that jeopardy attachment is in play here.

Also if the Judge determines the prosecution / prosecutors intentionally made this “blunder” after the Judges warning then He may very well decide the prosecutors do not get a second chance.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Race Radio said:
Wrong, College football sells more tickets then any other sport.

Well now you're just being silly. Of course College football sells more tickets than any other sport - there are 120 schools in the FBS alone.

But I think it's pretty obvious that we're talking about pro sports here. If we expand it as you have done, we would probably conclude that little league baseball has more attendants than every pro sport combined.

It appears you still do not get it, perhaps intentionally?

I'm quite certain I get it just fine, your constant need to condescend aside.

It does not matter what some fan thought about Barry or Roger 15 years ago, it matters what juries think of them today.

I didn't bring up the popularity contest. That was you.

As I said I think the Feds will not file as many charges as they could with Lance because there is a large section of the population that suspends rational thought when it comes to Lance. Barry and Roger do not have that luxury.

you think the FDA and the IRS will because they are afraid the public will disagree? You can't be serious.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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eleven said:
Well now you're just being silly. Of course College football sells more tickets than any other sport - there are 120 schools in the FBS alone.

But I think it's pretty obvious that we're talking about pro sports here. If we expand it as you have done, we would probably conclude that little league baseball has more attendants than every pro sport combined.



I'm quite certain I get it just fine, your constant need to condescend aside.



I didn't bring up the popularity contest. That was you.



you think the FDA and the IRS will because they are afraid the public will disagree? You can't be serious.

Silly, you chose the measurement of tickets, not I.

public popularity is a key ingredient to any high profile prosecution. It would be foolish to pretend that it isn't. Clemens, and soon Armstrong, are banking on it to save them from prison as the facts are not in their favor
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Race Radio said:
public popularity is a key ingredient to any high profile prosecution. It would be foolish to pretend that it isn't. Clemens, and soon Armstrong, are banking on it to save them from prison as the facts are not in their favor

For the record here, RR: You're saying that the prosecution in these cases will file fewer charges because the person(s) being investigated are popular. Is that right?
 
Jul 14, 2009
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eleven said:
For the record here, RR: You're saying that the prosecution in these cases will file fewer charges because the person(s) being investigated are popular. Is that right?

One thing is for sure that some heads have rolled after Bonds Clemens and Casey Anthony snafus. Anthony was humanized when she didn't deserve it,displayed her in such a way that the jury wouldn't have the courage to put her to death. She was basically overcharged.

The athletes are all starting to look like they are hounded and overcharged. Some people on the jury are not going to like the piling on way the charges are stacked.
Novitzky is going to walk a fine line between looking detailed and obsessed. Spending millions on international travel and investigation for a 10 year old possible offense.

If the judge comes back and says that Clemens can't be tried a second time it will help Bonds and Armstrong. I would love to see the expense reports for the Balco to current, Clemens and Armstrong investigations..so far they got Marion Jones to do 6 months.

The charges in the Bonds case went from 13 to 5 a month before trial who knows if it's because of his fame or just lack of evidence
 

Mr. O'Clock

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Pretty good chance Jeff no Italy is trying to overcompensate for his dads coaching job at Usf basketball, do they dope, does Jeff know something the general populace about Colleenegiate basketball doping in the third tier?
 
Aug 13, 2009
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As expected the judge ruled that double jeopardy did not apply and the Clemens case will go forward. Clemen's lawyer is busy with another case so trail is set for April 17th of next year
 
Sep 5, 2009
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fatandfast said:
One thing is for sure that some heads have rolled after Bonds Clemens and Casey Anthony snafus. Anthony was humanized when she didn't deserve it,displayed her in such a way that the jury wouldn't have the courage to put her to death. She was basically overcharged.

The athletes are all starting to look like they are hounded and overcharged. Some people on the jury are not going to like the piling on way the charges are stacked.
Novitzky is going to walk a fine line between looking detailed and obsessed. Spending millions on international travel and investigation for a 10 year old possible offense.

If the judge comes back and says that Clemens can't be tried a second time it will help Bonds and Armstrong. I would love to see the expense reports for the Balco to current, Clemens and Armstrong investigations..so far they got Marion Jones to do 6 months.

The charges in the Bonds case went from 13 to 5 a month before trial who knows if it's because of his fame or just lack of evidence

Comparing LA's prospective indictments with Bonds and Clemens is like trying to compare chalk with cheese.

Bonds had immunity from prosecution as long has he was truthful in the BALCO investigation and Grand Jury/trial. The prosecution could only pursue him on the grounds that he committed perjury and obstructed justice during these processes.

Clemens problems arose from his testimony before a Congressional committee in 2008 whereafter the House committee recommended that Clemens be investigated for investigation of his inconsistent testimony.

Lance Armstrong is the alleged target for a multitude of indictments, some satisfying a RICO attachment, that could only later include the components of the cases against Clemens and Bonds if he was to perjure himself in front of a GJ, judge or Congressional committee.
 
May 18, 2009
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Race Radio said:
As expected the judge ruled that double jeopardy did not apply and the Clemens case will go forward. Clemen's lawyer is busy with another case so trail is set for April 17th of next year

This commentary jives with what I was saying upthread that it could not have been intentional since it happened so early in the trial.

http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/.../questions-answers-second-roger-clemens-trial

This whole situation is stupid, and shows what a farce the judicial system is at times. The judge should have struck the reference to Pettitte's wife from the record, and continued the trial. We would potentially be done with this crap by now. The judge overreacted.

Now, the same judge comes to the same logical conclusion based upon reasoning a clown like me stated in a cycling forum right after it happened. So Rangel says what Pettitte's wife says X the first or second day, and let's say the judge strikes it. Her name is never mentioned again. Who gives a rat's azz? Does anybody think that would have swayed guilt in this trial? :rolleyes:
 
Dec 7, 2010
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JRTinMA said:
Waste of taxpayers money. Clemens is 10x more popular than that idiot Armstrong. Its a shame he should have to go back to court while LA was allowed to walk. Leave Roger alone.
:D
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/dailypitch/post/2012/04/red-sox-fried-chicken-sign-popeyes/1

2012Spring041_crop_650x440.jpg
 
Dec 7, 2010
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JRTinMA said:
Lovely day for baseball and a marathon, 85 and sunny in April. To early for all out panic, I will wait until next week.

"prefer our chicken best"? That seems a lot like "somewhat unique". Popeye's over KFC any day.

I first moved up to Boston in 1987 and my first RedSox game was vs. the Oakland A's that year,,,,,not sure but I think the rocket was on the mound. I was young and more interested in the Celtics. I left Boston in 1989 to return to a more civilized and metropolitan area known as “the Coast” to locals but to you “outsiders” aka ”carpetbaggers” it is the Mississippi Gulf Coast. :eek:
Later in life……2004-2006 I moved back to Boston (North Andover). I could not take the lack of civilization again and moved down here to Houston! :D
Nahhhh Popeye's is the "best"---FACT... :D
I have not raced Boston in a long time. Even with qualifying I just never got back there to race. Maybe next year. Since I am an old man now my times have started to look better ….without my glasses of course.
 
May 18, 2009
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Check this out. WTF?

http://blog.chron.com/clemens/2012/04/judge-restrict-pettitte-testimony/

Walton barred Pettitte from testifying that he had received HGH from Brian McNamee because it might prejudice the jury against Clemens.

Walton ruled that the fact that McNamee allegedly gave HGH to Pettitte on at least one occasion was not “somehow significant enough that it would outweigh the prejudice” against the baseball star who faces six felony charges of lying to Congress in 2008, when he denied alleged use of drugs

This is crazy. This is the same judge that pulled the clown act by dismissing the first jury, I think.

There has to be something here that the stenographer missed when typing in his/her story. This is too bizaar.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Susan Westemeyer said:
If only all problems were so easy to solve..... ;)

Susan

"There comes a time in your life, when you walk away from all the drama and people who create it. You surround yourself with people who make you happy. Forget the bad, and focus on the good. Love the people who treat you right, pray for the ones who don't. Life is too short to be anything but happy."

Susan,

This is the quote I wanted to thank you for. It is lovely, and such a marked contrast to most of the other signature lines that are nasty, obnoxious, combative, too cute, etc. You are obviously a very nice person, but it does make me wonder how you can stand moderating this forum. This is not a description that could be applied to the majority of the posters. The venom being spewed by the LA haters so nauseates me I only visit very occasionally. Kind regards, Bill