Romain Bardet Discussion Thread

[meat puppet]

Re: Re:

There were no real expectations, but their failure to adapt to an unexpected race situation is very telling.

Fair enough.

AFAIC, I choose to see the glass as being half full. Yes, It's a new scenario (Sky beatable), and the end result for today is a failure. The other favorites and their DS couldn't capitalize. On the other hand, this is the first time that Sky has been manhandled like this since '12. And that's encouraging heading to the Alps.

Have you considered Bardet, Uran, Aru and Martin going all out when the climb got steep?
If (big if) they coorperated no way Froome would return and then Froome only has Landa to work with him.... and Meintjes ofcourse.... defending position 10.
It could've been possible to crack Froome at that point. They all chose to do nothing, afraid, holding their GC positions. They lack the mentality to win the TdF obviously.

This is a balanced view imo. Sure everyone was cranking. But that is when you attack. Dropping froome on the izoard is a dead end. Ambushes and going long is the only option. Risky, sure.

They should have just rolled the dice without looking back. No way froome comes back, or even close, if a bunch of top contenders commit and go for it.

 

[samhocking]

Dan Martin said, when AG2R were pushing it, it was full-gas and he was on his limit the whole time. He said the only team that could get back onto AG2R train pushing like that after a mechanical was Froome & Sky. Bardet tried to go about 60s after Froome latched back on with Landa but his attack was really only an acceleration. Everyone was already on the limit including Bardet.

 

[Fergoose]

I can only assume that the AG2R domestiques were on the limit on the Cat1 and the team were gambling on Froome not making it back up. I also think this was poor by the team personally and we may have seen Bardets only chance to win this, or any other TDF. Maybe they chose to neutralise the race for the yellow jersey

Most likely Bardet was on a bad day and thought he might have blown up. I can't really blame any of the other GC riders as with AG2R having a big team there the onus was on them.

 

[hrotha]

Dan Martin said, when AG2R were pushing it, it was full-gas and he was on his limit the whole time. He said the only team that could get back onto AG2R train pushing like that after a mechanical was Froome & Sky. Bardet tried to go about 60s after Froome latched back on with Landa but his attack was really only an acceleration. Everyone was already on the limit including Bardet.

Riders always say they're on their limit, even when they're strolling around in a 100-strong group. The simple fact is that AG2R was happy to let Gautier or whoever do the pacing for a long while, and to save Vuillermoz for later. You'll notice that, when Vuillermoz finally started to pull (too little, too late), the pace did go up, so there goes the theory.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Obviously they could have gone faster on that climb as Barguil wasn't that much slower. It might have reduced the group to only three GC riders, but Bardet still had Bakelants in front and Uran Van Baarle. Beyond ridiculous to not even *try*

 

[samhocking]

Dan Martin said, when AG2R were pushing it, it was full-gas and he was on his limit the whole time. He said the only team that could get back onto AG2R train pushing like that after a mechanical was Froome & Sky. Bardet tried to go about 60s after Froome latched back on with Landa but his attack was really only an acceleration. Everyone was already on the limit including Bardet.

Riders always say they're on their limit, even when they're strolling around in a 100-strong group. The simple fact is that AG2R was happy to let Gautier or whoever do the pacing for a long while, and to save Vuillermoz for later. You'll notice that, when Vuillermoz finally started to pull (too little, too late), the pace did go up, so there goes the theory.

Hardly a theory when a rider on another team has said it. Was a funny looking long strung-out line of riders just strolling along behind AG2R lol and AG2R riders peeling off totally spent, still with 38km to go when Froomes spoke snapped?

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Dan Martin said, when AG2R were pushing it, it was full-gas and he was on his limit the whole time. He said the only team that could get back onto AG2R train pushing like that after a mechanical was Froome & Sky. Bardet tried to go about 60s after Froome latched back on with Landa but his attack was really only an acceleration. Everyone was already on the limit including Bardet.

Riders always say they're on their limit, even when they're strolling around in a 100-strong group. The simple fact is that AG2R was happy to let Gautier or whoever do the pacing for a long while, and to save Vuillermoz for later. You'll notice that, when Vuillermoz finally started to pull (too little, too late), the pace did go up, so there goes the theory.

Hardly a theory when a rider has said it. Was a funny looking long strung-out line of riders just strolling along behind AG2R lol!

There were other riders in that group besides Dan Martin, though. They can't all have been on the limit when they were only marginally faster than Barguil who already had to go full gas on the first climb of the day.

 

[hrotha]

Me: "Riders say the darndest things"
You: "But Dan Martin said this!"
K?

Whatever Dan Martin wants to say, it doesn't trump what I saw with my own eyes.

 

[samhocking]

I think the fact that riders only began attacking on the descent and flat, kind of shows the pace was not a stroll up the climb. I mean Oliver Naesen did most of his effort out of the saddle before blowing up.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Re:

I think the fact that riders only began attacking on the descent and flat, kind of shows the pace was not a stroll up the climb. I mean Oliver Naesen did the whole of his effort out of the saddle before blowing up.

Naesen is not a climber.

 

[samhocking]

But his power is the same, he just blows up

 

[RedheadDane]

Re:

Me: "Riders say the darndest things"
You: "But Dan Martin said this!"
K?

Whatever Dan Martin wants to say, it doesn't trump what I saw with my own eyes.

What I saw with my own eyes was AG2R giving it a decent try, which - for whatever reason - didn't work out.

 

[hrotha]

Re:

I think the fact that riders only began attacking on the descent and flat, kind of shows the pace was not a stroll up the climb. I mean Oliver Naesen did the whole of his effort out of the saddle before blowing up.

Do you know what "hyperbole" means? I didn't say they strolled up the climb, I said riders say the same thing even if they're strolling up the climbs. I think the pace was moderately high - the group wasn't too enormous. But it was very clearly not as high a pace as AG2R could manage, and it was clearly not the pace of someone willing to take any risks to capitalize on a sudden favourable position.

What I saw with my own eyes was AG2R giving it a decent try, which - for whatever reason - didn't work out.

You might want to re-read everything that has been said on why it wasn't a decent try.

 

[samhocking]

It's fine though. Happy for everyone to view a line of AG2R as a stroll if it is the only explanation why Froome got back on while AG2R riders are peeling off every 2km.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

What I saw with my own eyes was AG2R giving it a decent try, which - for whatever reason - didn't work out.

You might want to re-read everything that has been said on why it wasn't a decent try.

You mean re-read what's been said on why some people doesn't think it was a decent try?

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

You mean re-read what's been said on why some people doesn't think it was a decent try?

Whatever. Which part of those arguments do you disagree with? Did you think Gautier's pace had any chance of being sufficient? Do you think a decent try involves not taking any risks whatsoever?

 

[samhocking]

When Froome's spoke broke, AG2R had 6 domestiques. By 6 minutes left to climb for Bardet 'all' AG2R domestiques had been used up. That is not riding a moderate tempo in my racing manual.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

You mean re-read what's been said on why some people doesn't think it was a decent try?

Whatever. Which part of those arguments do you disagree with? Did you think Gautier's pace had any chance of being sufficient? Do you think a decent try involves not taking any risks whatsoever?

I don't know what AG2R's plan what, coz - obviously - I didn't participate in their pre-stage meeting, and even if I had I probably wouldn't have understood it. However, it was pretty clear (to me) that they did have a plan, it's just; this is a race, there are million of reasons things might not have gone 100% according to plan, forcing them to basically make it up as they went along.
In essence, I disagree with the nothing came out of it, so it doesn't count argument.

 

[samhocking]

I think their plan was to simply protect Bardet up the climb keeping everyone near threshold. Clearly if a team is using up 6 domestiques up a 8.3km climb of 7-8% there is a plan, otherwise we would have seen other GC riders attacking. The plan looked to be to both protect Bardet on GC on the climb from Aru, and I assume if he felt good, he could launch, possibly with a team mate or two over the top. As it transpired, the plan shifted with Froome's spoke and they decided to try and gain time on Froome perhaps by using up all domestiques before Bardet was near the summit. Better for Bardet to be in 2nd behind Aru than 3rd behind Froome & Aru, so I don't think the plan changed much other than emphasis on gaining time on Froome.

 

[staubsauger]

At least Bardet somehow always tries something. Even if it doesn't quite work out all the time. Like yesterday and last Sunday as well. Maybe he's not strong enough to make that final move. Aru seems to be quite happy with 2nd place at the moment. I'm not even sure if he lost the yellow jersey by mistake since Astana can't control the race anyway. Bardet looks more aggressive actually.

There are 2 stages left for Bardet & Aru to try and win the race. It might lead to the weird scenario that unless last year Romain really could've won the Tour, but eventually finishes 5th or 4th. Maybe that convinces him to go for the pink jersey in 2018?

 

[IndianCyclist]

IMO Bardet is unnecessarily vilified. They got lucky that Froome got a mechanical. It is the DS who has an overall strategy in mind. He got caught in the excitement. So much so that they forgot they had Bakelants 8+ minutes upfront. As soon as Froome got dropped, Bakelants should have been radioed to slow down at the top of the hill. Meanwhile AG2R other Domestiques give full gas and get dropped. At 2.5-3 k Bardet has to go full gas himself link upto Bakelants at the Top and then he could easily recover and gain time on Froome and everybody else as Bakelants is super on the flats.
But everybody forgot about Bakelants and he finished 4 minutes ahead of the GC group and relying on others contenders was always risky. Either way blame Lavenu for forgetting Bakelants or Bakelants for doing a Landa.

 

[Tonton]

Re:

At least Bardet somehow always tries something. Even if it doesn't quite work out all the time. Like yesterday and last Sunday as well. Maybe he's not strong enough to make that final move. Aru seems to be quite happy with 2nd place at the moment. I'm not even sure if he lost the yellow jersey by mistake since Astana can't control the race anyway. Bardet looks more aggressive actually.

There are 2 stages left for Bardet & Aru to try and win the race. It might lead to the weird scenario that unless last year Romain really could've won the Tour, but eventually finishes 5th or 4th. Maybe that convinces him to go for the pink jersey in 2018?

The problem is, the sponsor has a say...Bardet is under contract until 2020 IIRC, he has no pull. A great TdF, as it's shaping up, means TdF next year. The sponsor, the public...too much pressure for Lavenu and Bardet. And ASO will pressure too by designing next year's route accordingly...

 

[Tonton]

Re:

IMO Bardet is unnecessarily vilified. They got lucky that Froome got a mechanical. It is the DS who has an overall strategy in mind. He got caught in the excitement. So much so that they forgot they had Bakelants 8+ minutes upfront. As soon as Froome got dropped, Bakelants should have been radioed to slow down at the top of the hill. Meanwhile AG2R other Domestiques give full gas and get dropped. At 2.5-3 k Bardet has to go full gas himself link upto Bakelants at the Top and then he could easily recover and gain time on Froome and everybody else as Bakelants is super on the flats.
But everybody forgot about Bakelants and he finished 4 minutes ahead of the GC group and relying on others contenders was always risky. Either way blame Lavenu for forgetting Bakelants or Bakelants for doing a Landa.

The Bakelants point is a very good one...unless the plan was to shake a struggling (the day before) Aru off contention and count on Sky to help towards the end. Except that it was Sky who got dropped. Or it was some psychological warfare, punch everybody in the mouth, see who drops now, who gets intimidated moving forward. Aru, Uran must have found themselves to be very lucky, having dodged a big bullet: with no team to speak off, they would have never come back. Froome's interview shows that he got a big scare too.

 

[Galic Ho]

Re: Re:

I think the fact that riders only began attacking on the descent and flat, kind of shows the pace was not a stroll up the climb. I mean Oliver Naesen did the whole of his effort out of the saddle before blowing up.

Do you know what "hyperbole" means? I didn't say they strolled up the climb, I said riders say the same thing even if they're strolling up the climbs. I think the pace was moderately high - the group wasn't too enormous. But it was very clearly not as high a pace as AG2R could manage, and it was clearly not the pace of someone willing to take any risks to capitalize on a sudden favourable position.

What I saw with my own eyes was AG2R giving it a decent try, which - for whatever reason - didn't work out.

You might want to re-read everything that has been said on why it wasn't a decent try.

I agree with your perspective.

It was hard. But nobody was dropped. Meintjes and Yates hung on. Contador also stuck in there and his Tour has been up and down at times.

AG2R clearly set a fast pace that caused the break. Froome was dropped and Sky brought him back in the narrow sections and then he lost a wheel again...had to bridge on his own and suffered a puncture.

AG2R kept their pace going, but the simple fact that once Kwiatkowski stopped and gave Froome his wheel revealed 2 speeds up the mountain; Froome's and the AG2R lead GC boys.

Who went faster? Froome was 40 something seconds down. He caught back up. Henao and Nieve burned all their matches in a short, but very ferocious pace setting section.

Then when they both stopped, Landa dropped back.

Nobody attacked then. Nobody attacked from the AG2R led group.

My take, was that the AG2R domestiques needed to do what Landa and Henao did. Burn everything instantly. Leave it to Vuillermoz and when he was done, then the GC boys ALL go together. I expected such a move, should in theory, match the pace of Henao and Nieve, thus keeping the gap they had on Froome.

I would expect, the top 4 GC blokes and Landa to match that pace...they are after all, the best placed riders bar Froome, in the race.

Not one did a thing. Yes it is a huge risk. But it's better to put Froome on the back foot, and face racing among Aru, Landa, Uran, Martin and Bardet for the win than Froome who has several Tour victories. They get a rest day...burn those matches then and there. 5 of them together at the top, with that 40 seconds gap to Froome and his Tour is in major trouble.

Plus it pushes the Landa card...Sky won't have him drop back for that. They can't risk it. That leaves Chris Froome, alone, on his own, pulling all the way to the line...yeah, he may get in a group with Contador, Meintjes and Yates (who should be expected to be dropped if the pace is actually super aggressive)...I think the risk is worth it.

Heck, if Contador was there GC wise, he'd have done it.

Was the AG2R pace slow? Of course not. But it wasn't the level of Aru's stage 5 move. Sorry, but the GC boys all needed to match Froome, Henao and Nieve's wattage/kg for that climb and push their gap. They didn't.

So worth it with a rest day ahead. Worst scenario is Froome bridges to you and then what? He probably would have been spent. Once he caught up...he drops his power output slightly. That helps him recoup. They simply, did not want to red line it for 30km...but they had to. Really had to.

Look at the blokes like Geschke and De Gendt helping Dan Martin...they had help up the road. They just have to want it and use the opportunity. This is the equivalent of Quintana last year getting a bottle and not chasing Froome on the descent...Bardet should have done the work with Aru and Uran. If everyone else can't keep up...too bad. If it doesn't work, he still had plenty of AG2R blokes behind.

Heck...he did it a few times last year and it did get him time. Froome is on the ropes and nobody threw a knockout punch. They backed off...

Yeah...they should do better. So what if Landa thumps you all if you do that? At least it's losing to Landa who looks brilliant on a bike and not Froome!! He really does have them by the balls to a degree.

When they get another chance, USE IT.

 

[Galic Ho]

Re:

IMO Bardet is unnecessarily vilified. They got lucky that Froome got a mechanical. It is the DS who has an overall strategy in mind. He got caught in the excitement. So much so that they forgot they had Bakelants 8+ minutes upfront. As soon as Froome got dropped, Bakelants should have been radioed to slow down at the top of the hill. Meanwhile AG2R other Domestiques give full gas and get dropped. At 2.5-3 k Bardet has to go full gas himself link upto Bakelants at the Top and then he could easily recover and gain time on Froome and everybody else as Bakelants is super on the flats.
But everybody forgot about Bakelants and he finished 4 minutes ahead of the GC group and relying on others contenders was always risky. Either way blame Lavenu for forgetting Bakelants or Bakelants for doing a Landa.

This here.

Bardet did have to go at some point.

He still does. Prime opportunity. Yes I expect Aru could in theory match him as well. Same with Uran. Landa would just follow wheels. How does a lone Chris Froome, bridge on his own?

His own interviews revealed (unless he is feigning his strength and intentions) said he thought it was race over.

It looked bad for him. Really bad. That's because it was.

I will have to rewatch this event, but it looked strangely to me, as though 6 AG2R blokes were 4. Yes 2 dropped off, but all of them needed to go to their max like Nieve and Henao and blow up earlier. Then leave Bardet to do his MAX all the way to the top.

Then link up with Bakelants. Time trial to the finish and recoup a bit on the descent (Bardet is a very strong descender).

That's how you win the Tour de France.

Waiting for the third week, when a golden opportunity presents itself is silly. Hopefully they learn and recovered well enough for more digs.

Their racing was good...it's what they didn't do once Froome had his puncture that was the only issue.