Rominger......... any good?

[Escarabajo]

I figure Martin actually intended to put some Rominger posts here. This was being discussed in another thread, and it definitely changed my perception of Rominger before the EPO era.

It has not changed mine at all. Issoisso tried hard to portray him as a good talent but there have been more evidence and coincidences shown by other posters here. To add to the discussion, injuries are part of the sport and also part of being natural talented, so you have to take that into account when someone fails to have results.

To me he is a product of EPO but of course as somebody else mentioned, he is no Riis either.

 

[hrotha]

It has not changed mine at all. Issoisso tried hard to portray him as a good talent but there have been more evidence and coincidences shown by other posters here. To add to the discussion, injuries are part of the sport and also part of being natural talented, so you have to take that into account when someone fails to have results.

To me he is a product of EPO but of course as somebody else mentioned, he is no Riis either.

I used to think he was a bit of a Riis.

There's evidence that he doped, of course. He was a Ferrari client after all. But he definitely had talent, if not necessarily over three weeks. In my personal interpretation of things, that would put him in the same category as Bugno.

 

[pmcg76]

It has not changed mine at all. Issoisso tried hard to portray him as a good talent but there have been more evidence and coincidences shown by other posters here. To add to the discussion, injuries are part of the sport and also part of being natural talented, so you have to take that into account when someone fails to have results.

To me he is a product of EPO but of course as somebody else mentioned, he is no Riis either.

Recently there was a big thread on whether Indurain was a product of EPO or a natural talent enhanced by EPO. I think Rominger's palmares is quite comparable with Indurain pre 1990, Rominger showed up in both TTs and Mountains in GTs so the ability was there, hence the victories in races like T-A, Lombardy etc, putting it all together over 3 weeks seemed to be the problem.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Having watched and followed his career, I tend to agree with Issoisso. With exception to a handful of riders, between about 1993-2000, almost everyone was on EPO. Tony was no exception. But I think it's false to think he was a nobody, then when EPO came along he was first to jump on and bloomed. Maybe he responded better than others, but he was a talented rider throughout his career, from early on.

Rominger also did extreme altitude training leading up to the 1993 Tour, spending a few weeks in Leadville, Colorado, and riding up Mt. Evans a lot. No, not the same effect as EPO, but hardly anyone was doing training like that at the time. He was the one rider who really pushed Indurain and almost beat him.

 

[pmcg76]

Having watched and followed his career, I tend to agree with Issoisso. With exception to a handful of riders, between about 1993-2000, almost everyone was on EPO. Tony was no exception. But I think it's false to think he was a nobody, then when EPO came along he was first to jump on and bloomed. Maybe he responded better than others, but he was a talented rider throughout his career, from early on.

Rominger also did extreme altitude training leading up to the 1993 Tour, spending a few weeks in Leadville, Colorado, and riding up Mt. Evans a lot. No, not the same effect as EPO, but hardly anyone was doing training like that at the time. He was the one rider who really pushed Indurain and almost beat him.

And who did Rominger have with him on some of those trips, Dr.Ferrari. How do you think Ferrari perfected his techniques before Lance. Training in the US far away from Europe where nobody would know who they were.

 

[ElChingon]

These two identical threads are confusing.

Mods?

Its like they're blind at times, but I'm sure they'll ban a member for posting something out of context in some random thread deep in the pile of threads.

Rominger was cool (just so they don't say I posted a non related post to the title).

 

[pmcg76]

Its like they're blind at times, but I'm sure they'll ban a member for posting something out of context in some random thread deep in the pile of threads.

Rominger was cool (just so they don't say I posted a non related post to the title).

Well I think this is the mods fault, I had been part of the discussion on Rominger in another thread entitles Biggest Myths and then a mod decided to start a new thread including those posts related to Rominger. However, the new thread didnt include those posts and people just started posting their own thoughs on Rominger.

Then today this thread appeared which is the actual posts from the Biggest Myths thread which should have been put in the other thread. Now its a bit late to combine them even though they have the same title. One needs to be deleted. Probably this one.

 

[Exroadman24902]

It might be worthwhile remembering that Rominger started cycling late.
Here is a quote from wikipedia.

Tony Rominger (born 27 March 1961 in Vejle, Denmark) is a Swiss former professional road racing cyclist who won the Vuelta a España in 1992, 1993 and 1994 and the Giro d'Italia in 1995.

He began cycling late, allegedly spurred by competition with his brother.

I don't find that worthwhile because it isn't. I find the late 80s race results turned on their head when EPO arrived a much moire worthwhile issue to question and you should too

 

[pmcg76]

I don't find that worthwhile because it isn't. I find the late 80s race results turned on their head when EPO arrived a much moire worthwhile issue to question and you should too

Its relevant if part of your argument is he didnt do anything until he was in his 30s. Rominger didnt turn pro until he was 25, if he didnt take up the sport until his 20s, that is still a rapid progression. Finishing on the podium at T-A and Trentino as well as lying 2nd on GC after 2 weeks of a GT is pretty good for a second year pro regardless of age.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

That was part of my point exactly.

I wasn't trying to imply that he wasn't on EPO, or he wasn't one of Ferrari's early lab experiments before Lance. Just that he did have talent. Let's not also forget that Ferrari learned under Conconi, who already had a huge stable of both riders (Indurain was one) and disciples when Ferrari got started.

I mean, the same argument could of course apply to Lance. He was a decent racer through the early 90ls, and even though he probably doped his entire career, when Ferrari got a hold of him...

 

[roundabout]

When exactly did Rominger abandon in the 1987 Giro? He seemed to go flat after 15 stages with still a week (4 mountain stages and a TT) to go.

It was a very good performance for a 2nd year pro, but it seems (at a glance) that Rominger became consistent over 3 weeks only in the 90's.

 

[pmcg76]

When exactly did Rominger abandon in the 1987 Giro? He seemed to go flat after 15 stages with still a week (4 mountain stages and a TT) to go.

It was a very good performance for a 2nd year pro, but it seems (at a glance) that Rominger became consistent over 3 weeks only in the 90's.

Thats pretty much spot on, his first consistent 3 week GT was the Vuelta in 92.

In regards to the Giro, I think he was lying 2nd to Roche by 5 secs after stage 15, the first in a series of mountain stages. The next day he dropped over a minute but was still well placed, however the next day he dropped a lot of time and somewhere between there and the last stage he abandoned.

 

[Granville57]

Well I think this is the mods fault, I had been part of the discussion on Rominger in another thread entitles Biggest Myths and then a mod decided to start a new thread including those posts related to Rominger. However, the new thread didnt include those posts and people just started posting their own thoughs on Rominger.

Then today this thread appeared which is the actual posts from the Biggest Myths thread which should have been put in the other thread. Now its a bit late to combine them even though they have the same title. One needs to be deleted. Probably this one.

Actually, this thread was started on June 9th by issoisso, but then Martin started the other one a day or so later...but with the identical title. I PMed Martin about it but I'm assuming he just hasn't logged back in since.

Martin? You realize that there is a direct correlation between the time it takes to straighten this out and length of time we get to joke about it, right?

 

[ElChingon]

Funny thing is there's a mod commenting on the other one

Maybe if someone started to call others names they'd do something

 

[ultimobici]

To those of you who discount Rominger as a mere product of EPO, look at his palmares prior to 1991.
http://www.cyclingbase.com/palcoureurs.php?id=2301&idtitle=1

It is clear that he was a talented rider who progressed in the hilly races like Lombardia & Milano-Torino as well as Tirenno and the Ardennes.

That he used EPO is not in question, but the talent was there to see before it took hold in the peloton.

Contrast his record with that of Riis who turned pro at about the same time.
http://www.cyclingbase.com/palcoureurs.php?id=1572&idtitle=1
Riis's results in the first part of his career are non-existent compared to Rominger's.

 

[Berzin]

So what is the point of this thread?

It sounds like an Armstrong Apologist Treatise, only with Rominger as the test subject.

It goes like this-"Well, there's no disputing that he (Rominger) used EPO, but he was talented and showed great promise to win the races he won after being on a doping regimen".

This apologist crap seems to be sweeping the nation. What is the end game in defending this point of view?

Sounds like a silly game of semantics being played out-Rominger the talented, entitled grand tour winner, Riis the impostor.

News for you cats-anyone who took EPO to win a bike race falls under the same category of "cheater".

Which rider had more natural talent than the other doesn't make a difference except to those fanboys who want to believe their heroes were still deserving of their ill-gotten achievements.

Moral relativism at it's most vile.

 

[hrotha]

More news for you - we're discussing Rominger's results in the 80s here. I don't know about you, but when I talk about doping in the 90s I try to stay away from the ethical side and try to look at it from a historical perspective, so analyzing the career of a successful rider before EPO is useful to reconstruct the history of the sport and to understand what happened, unless you want to simplify and dumb down things.

 

[ultimobici]

So what is the point of this thread?

It sounds like an Armstrong Apologist Treatise, only with Rominger as the test subject.

It goes like this-"Well, there's no disputing that he (Rominger) used EPO, but he was talented and showed great promise to win the races he won after being on a doping regimen".

This apologist crap seems to be sweeping the nation. What is the end game in defending this point of view?

Sounds like a silly game of semantics being played out-Rominger the talented, entitled grand tour winner, Riis the impostor.

News for you cats-anyone who took EPO to win a bike race falls under the same category of "cheater".

Which rider had more natural talent than the other doesn't make a difference except to those fanboys who want to believe their heroes were still deserving of their ill-gotten achievements.

Moral relativism at it's most vile.

Not what I was driving at at all.

What Rominger won after EPO came into the sport is another matter entirely, as it is with Armstrong, Riis & any other rider you care to mention.

But what cannot be denied is that prior to EPO Rominger was a rider who had already won Lombardia in 1989 together with Tirenno-Adriatico twice, Tour of the Med and a stage of the Giro. No amount of amphetamine or any other pre-EPO dope is going to get results like that.

But when one looks at his career after that one has to wonder. His transformation wasn't as blatant as Armstrong's, as we'd already seen him climb, but it was a transformation nonetheless.

 

[pmcg76]

When exactly did Rominger abandon in the 1987 Giro? He seemed to go flat after 15 stages with still a week (4 mountain stages and a TT) to go.

It was a very good performance for a 2nd year pro, but it seems (at a glance) that Rominger became consistent over 3 weeks only in the 90's.

I did some more research to your question and it seems like Rominger dropped out on stage 19 with 3 days to go.

He lost 1.17 on stage 16 which still would have left him in the Top 5, the following day he lost 5+ minutes but was probably still Top 10. Stage 18 was a bunch sprint but on stage 19 according to the reports Rominger was 5 minutes down on an early climb so seems most likely he dropped out then.
The same day, the maglia bianca which Rominger had been wearing passed to Roberto Conti.

I had assumed the Maglia Bianca was for the best young rider but Rominger was 26 and then Conti wore it all the way to the finish ending up in 15th place overall but Eric Breukink was 3rd overall and the same age as Conti. Confusing.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...w-archives-the-1987-giro-d-italia-part-4.html

 

[roundabout]

Thank you. The reason I am asking the question is that I thought he might have gotten sick but it was a gradual decline so tiredness seems to be the bigger factor.

He was going very well on just about every tough stage before (as already mentioned).

6th in the prologue
7th in the mountain top stage 1(a)
4th in the Poggio downhill TT
6th to Terminillo
2nd in the uphill TT
2nd to Sappada

 

[Le breton]

I don't find that worthwhile because it isn't...........

Do I understand you correctly that for a to p level cyclist turning pro at age 25 is no excuse for not winning, say the Tour or the Giro at age 23 for example?

 

[pmcg76]

Thank you. The reason I am asking the question is that I thought he might have gotten sick but it was a gradual decline so tiredness seems to be the bigger factor.

He was going very well on just about every tough stage before (as already mentioned).

6th in the prologue
7th in the mountain top stage 1(a)
4th in the Poggio downhill TT
6th to Terminillo
2nd in the uphill TT
2nd to Sappada

He might have been sick, I couldnt find that info. Strange to drop out of a GT 3 days before the finish unless something is very wrong regardless of performances.

 

[indurain666]

Having watched and followed his career, I tend to agree with Issoisso. With exception to a handful of riders, between about 1993-2000, almost everyone was on EPO. Tony was no exception. But I think it's false to think he was a nobody, then when EPO came along he was first to jump on and bloomed. Maybe he responded better than others, but he was a talented rider throughout his career, from early on.

Rominger also did extreme altitude training leading up to the 1993 Tour, spending a few weeks in Leadville, Colorado, and riding up Mt. Evans a lot. No, not the same effect as EPO, but hardly anyone was doing training like that at the time. He was the one rider who really pushed Indurain and almost beat him.

+1, Tony Rominger was a true champion and a legend of cycling. Yes, he probably did use EPO, like many cyclists in the 90s did but EPO itself does not make you ride 55 kph on a road bike with aero bar and disc wheels nor it does makes you win Vuelta three years in a row.

"Clinic jedis" need to spend less time writing junk and riding more

 

[Exroadman24902]

Do I understand you correctly that for a to p level cyclist turning pro at age 25 is no excuse for not winning, say the Tour or the Giro at age 23 for example?

You've seen what I said. The Italian doping Dr connection is enough to do Lance. For me, aside from the doping Dr and that crazy hour record distance, Rominger's first major GC performances without bad days didn't happen till EPO arrived and when he was into his 30s. I don't believe he was clean. You can if you wish

 

[pmcg76]

You've seen what I said. The Italian doping Dr connection is enough to do Lance. For me, aside from the doping Dr and that crazy hour record distance, Rominger's first major GC performances without bad days didn't happen till EPO arrived and when he was into his 30s. I don't believe he was clean. You can if you wish

Has anyone in this thread at any point said Rominger was clean? No.

Has anyone in this thread said Rominger didnt benefit from EPO? No.

All that has been highlighted is Rominger came to cycling very late, thus lacks results at an early age but had good results before the advent of EPO. I think people feel that Rominger is unfairly lumped in with the likes of Riis/Chiappucci etc, guys who had no real results before EPO arrived. Therefore people are just highlighting the fact that Rominger was not a complete numpty before EPO. Simple really.