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Rough Attempt at an All-Time Ranking

Page 33 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Again. Riders already get points towards their all-time ranking for the stage wins or stage placings which resulted in them getting a green jersey. The green jersey in this ranking would only give them double points for the same results. Then lets also give extra points for the rider who finished the season #1, 2, 3 on the UCI ranking. Because it's exactly the same thing. Giving points for a ranking that is the result of achievements which are already factored into this ranking in the first place.
 
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I don't understand how it's possible to think the green jersey isn't worth more than a stage win. For the likes of Sagan and Zabel, their green jersey hauls are far, far more career-defining than their arrays of stage wins, but they naturally have less of the former. I also don't think there's a single green jersey winner who would have traded that achievement for a stage win.

The KOM jersey has admittedly lost much of its shine but it was a huge deal for decades, so in an all-time ranking you have to place a fair amount of value on it. If you're only looking at this century, then yes, it isn't worth more than a stage win, but that's not what the discussion was about.

On the other hand, the OCTT and WCTT definitely go above all one-week stage races for me. The latter are never much more than preparation races, the former can be season-defining targets. At the very least, they should be on par with the biggest non-monument classics - Amstel, GW, Flèche - and IMO they're worth slightly more than those too.
Zabel and Sagan are remembered as green jersey winners because they rode around them for 6 and 7 years without huge competition for it while not winning all that many stages.

When Sagan won green without winning a stage in 2015 it was a huge disappointment even though he probably gained the most exposure that Tour.
 
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Zabel and Sagan are remembered as green jersey winners because they rode around them for 6 and 7 years without huge competition for it while not winning all that many stages.

When Sagan won green without winning a stage in 2015 it was a huge disappointment even though he probably gained the most exposure that Tour.
If Sagan had won a single stage but not the green jersey in 2015, it would also have been a huge disappointment. Perhaps an even bigger one.
 
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Again. Riders already get points towards their all-time ranking for the stage wins or stage placings which resulted in them getting a green jersey. The green jersey in this ranking would only give them double points for the same results. Then lets also give extra points for the rider who finished the season #1, 2, 3 on the UCI ranking. Because it's exactly the same thing. Giving points for a ranking that is the result of achievements which are already factored into this ranking in the first place.
And stage wins and stage placings don't contribute to the overall GC? Especially when there are bonus seconds involved? Why single out the points classification as the only one that should be omitted?
 
If Sagan had won a single stage but not the green jersey in 2015, it would also have been a huge disappointment. Perhaps an even bigger one.
Sagan bottling green would be an extraordinary achievement.

Green jersey and KOM get the most exposure compared to how prestigious they actually are IMO. Green jersey is basically never competitive and just a farming exercise depending on how the UCI the points system set up this time around. And it's been changed a lot over the years as well.

Every year there's a lot of speculation how about 5 riders may compete for green and then basically 1 or 2 actually try in the first place.
 
If we focus on one-day races, would you have both the OGTT and the WCTT between Sanremo and Amstel?
Yes exactly actually!
From within cycling a monument is higher prestige than gold IMO
Its only the prestige from outside of cycling the gold matters so much.

Also the fact that its only every 4 years makes it more 'flukey' - you need to be in your prime, so probably only have 2 realistic chances, AND the course needs to suit.
 
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Sagan bottling green would be an extroardinary achievement.

Green jersey and KOM get the most exposure compared to how prestigious they actually are IMO. Green jersey is basically never competitive and just a farming exercise depending on how the UCI the points system set up this time around. And it's been changed a lot over the years as well.

Every year there's a lot of speculation how about 5 riders may compete for green and then basically 1 or 2 actually try in the first place.
That is down to the fact that no one cares about 2nd in the point classification. If you can't win it, why fight for getting 3rd? (Yet that still happens).

Cavendish fought with what he got for the green jersey against Hushovd and Petacchi.
 
And stage wins and stage placings don't contribute to the overall GC? Especially when there are bonus seconds involved? Why single out the points classification as the only one that should be omitted?
Other than some of Roglic' wins, how many high profile GC's are won on bonis?

Adding the green jersey to this list is giving points for the same achievement that already awarded points BY DEFAULT.

A GC is still a GC even if that GC can only be won on bonis (like Tour of Quatar etc). A GC is still the main classification.
 
That is down to the fact that no one cares about 2nd in the point classification. If you can't win it, why fight for getting 3rd? (Yet that still happens).
If 2nd is worthless, and only one guy tries, why is it so prestigious lol.

Don't even get me started on the fact that point system changes have basically taken any competitiveness out of the classification in all 3 GTs.
 
If 2nd is worthless, and only one guy tries, why is it so prestigious lol.

Don't even get me started on the fact that point system changes have basically taken any competitiveness out of the classification in all 3 GTs.
Only dominance can intimidate others from going for the title.

If being an alpha-male of a pack is so valuable, why isn't it contested by everyone? Because a proper attempt is not free, and if you can't win you don't gain anything from trying.
 
Green jersey and KOM get the most exposure compared to how prestigious they actually are IMO. Green jersey is basically never competitive and just a farming exercise depending on how the UCI the points system set up this time around. And it's been changed a lot over the years as well.
Incorrect, they get the most exposure compared to how much you care about them.

Also, prestige is dependent in significant part on exposure.
 
Only dominance can intimidate others from going for the title.

If being an alpha-male of a pack is so valuable, why isn't it contested by everyone? Because a proper attempt is not free, and if you can't win you don't gain anything from trying.
Yes because the reverse implied odds of contesting intermediate sprints are getting your face kicked in by another male who's slightly bigger. That comparison doesn't make any sense. People not contesting it just means that getting 2nd or 3rd isn't worth ***, which speaks volume to the value of the competition.
Incorrect, they get the most exposure compared to how much you care about them.

Also, prestige is dependent in significant part on exposure.
People only care about green when it's a popular rider winning it. I really think people reverse causation on this. And it's just there to talk about for riders to big up riders who don't compete for GC. Like I don't ever see Valverde fans big up the 15 times Valverde won the Vuelta points jersey.

Also I wonder how many fans would legit trade Sagans 2020 Giro stage win up for Ciclamino with no stage win.
 
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Sagan bottling green would be an extraordinary achievement.

Green jersey and KOM get the most exposure compared to how prestigious they actually are IMO. Green jersey is basically never competitive and just a farming exercise depending on how the UCI the points system set up this time around. And it's been changed a lot over the years as well.

Every year there's a lot of speculation how about 5 riders may compete for green and then basically 1 or 2 actually try in the first place.
What changes would you make to the point system to make the Green Jersey a better competition? I agree with you, but curious as to your thoughts.
 
Could you explain that system and why it was better?

It favoured regularity far more instead of the current tilt towards stage wins. The breakaway often took all the intermediate points (there were 2 or 3 intermediate sprints per stage), so a rider had to join the break or have it brought back to take points in them. The smaller differences in points meant that it was open for longer between more riders, as the leader would lose a lot by missing out on a stage.
 
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It favoured regularity far more instead of the current tilt towards stage wins. The breakaway often took all the intermediate points (there were 2 or 3 intermediate sprints per stage), so a rider had to join the break or have it brought back to take points in them. The smaller differences in points meant that it was open for longer between more riders, as the leader would lose a lot by missing out on a stage.
Thanks!

On the one hand, I suppose it makes sense to give more points for a stage win, since that's actually the goal of sprinters.

On the other hand, that's also it's own reward, and I do agree that you want consistent good sprinting, not just a few lucky stage wins in the beginning driving the result.
 
Leaving cardinality aside, what is the order of the prestige of victories currently? If we can agree on that, it should make a ranking easier.

A first attempt:

Tour de France
Giro d'Italia
Vuelta a España
Olympic Games Road Race
World Championships Road Race
Paris - Roubaix
Ronde van Vlaanderen
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Giro di Lombardia
Milano - Sanremo
Dauphiné Libéré
Tour de Suisse
Paris - Nice
Itzulia
Tirreno - Adriatico
Volta a Cataluña
Amstel Gold Race
Gent - Wevelgem
Tour de Romandie
Olympic Games Time Trial
Flèche Wallone
World Championships Time Trial
Tour de France Green Jersey
E3 Harelbeke
Strade Bianche
San Sebastian
Tour de France Polka Dot Jersey
European Championships Road Race
Omloop
GP de Québec
GP de Montréal
UAE Tour
Tour de Pologne
Benelux Tour
Tour Down Under
Giro dell'Emilia
Milano - Torino
Dwars door Vlaanderen
Bretagne Classic
Kuurne - Brussel - Kuurne
De Panne
Hamburg Cyclassics
Frankfurt
Tre Valli Varesine

I'll add more races and the secondary classifications of the Giro and Vuelta later.
Presumably Milano - Torino is on this list based on what it was, not what it is now.
 
In order to make Green AND Yellow more attractive and give sprinters a chance to compete for the GC, I would introduce 2 intermediate sprints in every single flat / intermediate stage, but not only with more points for green in flat / medium hilly stages, but also with 60s / 40s / 20s for 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the intermediate.

This would increase the number of GC contenders, make for incredible come-backs, and more (tactical) racing among the GC favourites even on flat stages.

+ It would be the way to go for WvA to finally win the Tour.