Rough Attempt at an All-Time Ranking

[tobydawq]

Which is why 'all WT races and nothing else' is a seriously flawed metric no matter what you're trying to measure. Does anyone really think CEGORR or the Tour of Guangxi is a bigger deal than Kuurne or Emilia?

I actually hadn't seen that the CEGORR (we need a shortening for the shortening) was listed above those two races. I guess there are small things to tweak.

I would also say that the Canadian races are far harder to win than the Australian one - the field is elite for those two.

 

[Kaptain Kool]

IMHO whether KBK (4) gets less points that Cadel's Race (8) is nitpicking on minor details for low differences of points. Also, the UCI awards more points for those races, too, so they're objectively more valuable. Which they should since they have the courage to invite all of the top tier teams.
If KBK or Emilia want to be an 8 pointer in the Danish system, they should try to get the courage to move up to World Tour as well. Simple as that.

 

[Pantani_lives]

That Danish list looks rather good, better than most lists, although there are a few weaker points too. Monuments are undervalued compared to the world's, which explains why De Vlaeminck isn't in the top 10. Races like Kuurne, Brabantse Pijl and Emilia should be awarded points because of their historical importance, even if they're currently not in the World Tour. The UCI wants to spread WT races over many different countries, which means that some of the semi-classics in traditional cycling countries aren't included, even if they have a higher quality than some of the WT races.

And yes, I'll do an update after the Tour. The battle for first Slovenian will be close, and there might be a new Danish entry.

 

[Netserk]

If you want to compare across eras, races outside of Europe should not give any points.

 

[Pantani_lives]

Here's an update of the biggest changes in the top 180, compared to the end of 2022. In case of an ex aequo the biggest win makes the difference, so a Tour winner beats a Giro winner if they have the same amount of points.

Jonas Vingegaard is the only new entrant. He's now the second highest Dane, behind Rolf Sörensen at #98. He's still two places below the first double Tour winner Lucien Petit-Breton.

(136) 132. Arnaud Démare 202
(128) 131. Stefano Garzelli 202
(/////) 130. Jonas Vingegaard 202
(127) 129. Denis Menchov 203
(126) 128. Lucien Petit-Breton 203
(133) 127. Richard Carapaz 204

A Dutchman jumps over his father by winning two monuments, but he's still behind a Welsh E3 winner.

(121) 123. Adrie van der Poel 211
(177) 118. Mathieu van der Poel 219
(122) 111. Geraint Thomas 228

Remco Evenepoel enters the top 100 and takes a rest between two Tour winners. At the age of twenty-three he's already bigger than Bradley Wiggins.

(083) 84. Bradley Wiggins 279
(108) 83. Remco Evenepoel 280
(082) 82. Philippe Thys 280

Van Aert jumps over Alaphilippe. He could have been five places higher by not giving away Gent-Wevelgem.

(73) 71. Julian Alaphilippe 307
(69) 70. Abraham Olano 308
(68) 69. André Leducq 308
(79) 68. Wout Van Aert 311
(67) 67. Pedro Delgado 312

Is it karma or a weird coincidence? The two Slovenians are tied in points! The ex aequo rule favors Pogačar. These two are surrounded by four more riders of the current century.

(26) 28. Peter Sagan 520
(25) 27. Tom Boonen 525
(28) 26. Primož Roglič 563
(39) 25. Tadej Pogačar 563
(24) 24. Vincenzo Nibali 584
(23) 23. Alberto Contador 599

A complete update will follow at the end of the season.

 

[Netserk]

Leaving cardinality aside, what is the order of the prestige of victories currently? If we can agree on that, it should make a ranking easier.

A first attempt:

Tour de France
Giro d'Italia
Vuelta a España
Olympic Games Road Race
World Championships Road Race
Paris - Roubaix
Ronde van Vlaanderen
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Giro di Lombardia
Milano - Sanremo
Dauphiné Libéré
Tour de Suisse
Paris - Nice
Itzulia
Tirreno - Adriatico
Volta a Cataluña
Amstel Gold Race
Gent - Wevelgem
Tour de Romandie
Olympic Games Time Trial
Flèche Wallone
World Championships Time Trial
Tour de France Green Jersey
E3 Harelbeke
Strade Bianche
San Sebastian
Tour de France Polka Dot Jersey
European Championships Road Race
Omloop
GP de Québec
GP de Montréal
UAE Tour
Tour de Pologne
Benelux Tour
Tour Down Under
Giro dell'Emilia
Milano - Torino
Dwars door Vlaanderen
Bretagne Classic
Kuurne - Brussel - Kuurne
De Panne
Hamburg Cyclassics
Frankfurt
Tre Valli Varesine

I'll add more races and the secondary classifications of the Giro and Vuelta later.

 

[topcat]

Leaving cardinality aside, what is the order of the prestige of victories currently? If we can agree on that, it should make a ranking easier.

A first attempt:

Tour de France
Giro d'Italia
Vuelta a España
Olympic Games Road Race
World Championships Road Race
Paris - Roubaix
Ronde van Vlaanderen
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Giro di Lombardia
Milano - Sanremo
Dauphiné Libéré
Tour de Suisse
Paris - Nice
Itzulia
Tirreno - Adriatico
Volta a Cataluña
Amstel Gold Race
Gent - Wevelgem
Tour de Romandie
Olympic Games Time Trial
Flèche Wallone
World Championships Time Trial
Tour de France Green Jersey
E3 Harelbeke
Strade Bianche
San Sebastian
Tour de France Polka Dot Jersey
European Championships Road Race
Omloop
GP de Québec
GP de Montréal
UAE Tour
Tour de Pologne
Benelux Tour
Tour Down Under
Giro dell'Emilia
Milano - Torino
Dwars door Vlaanderen
Bretagne Classic
Kuurne - Brussel - Kuurne
De Panne
Hamburg Cyclassics
Frankfurt
Tre Valli Varesine

I'll add more races and the secondary classifications of the Giro and Vuelta later.

I mostly agree. I would have wcrr above ogrr and I would have msr above lombardia and lbl.

 

[Red Rick]

Subrankings within race category should be reasonably close anyway.

The one I really disagree with is that the WCITT and OGITT should be much higher, especially the Olympic ITT. Those races get targeted by some of the best riders in the world, and in cases like Dumoulin or Evenepoel, even sways GT scheduling at times.

 

[Netserk]

Subrankings within race category should be reasonably close anyway.

The one I really disagree with is that the WCITT and OGITT should be much higher, especially the Olympic ITT. Those races get targeted by some of the best riders in the world, and in cases like Dumoulin or Evenepoel, even sways GT scheduling at times.

Enough so that Tony Martin is one of the greatest riders of his generation?

Personally, I don’t rate Michael Rogers at all.

Van Aert revealed last year just how highly he rated it.

 

[Red Rick]

Enough so that Tony Martin is one of the greatest riders of his generation?

Personally, I don’t rate Michael Rogers at all.

Van Aert revealed last year just how highly he rated it.

Depends on where your cutoff is, but I easily put him ahead of Simon Gerrans. IMO there's a bias against TT specialists

I also never said Worlds ITT should equal a monument, but to me putting Olympic ITT below frigging Romandie is just taking the piss.

 

[Netserk]

If we focus on one-day races, would you have both the OGTT and the WCTT between Sanremo and Amstel?

 

[Netserk]

If I was Cancellara, I’d happily trade the WCTTs for four Amstel victories.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Leaving cardinality aside, what is the order of the prestige of victories currently? If we can agree on that, it should make a ranking easier.

A first attempt:

Tour de France
Giro d'Italia
Vuelta a España
Olympic Games Road Race
World Championships Road Race
Paris - Roubaix
Ronde van Vlaanderen
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Giro di Lombardia
Milano - Sanremo
Dauphiné Libéré
Tour de Suisse
Paris - Nice
Itzulia
Tirreno - Adriatico
Volta a Cataluña
Amstel Gold Race
Gent - Wevelgem
Tour de Romandie
Olympic Games Time Trial
Flèche Wallone
World Championships Time Trial
Tour de France Green Jersey
E3 Harelbeke
Strade Bianche
San Sebastian
Tour de France Polka Dot Jersey
European Championships Road Race
Omloop
GP de Québec
GP de Montréal
UAE Tour
Tour de Pologne
Benelux Tour
Tour Down Under
Giro dell'Emilia
Milano - Torino
Dwars door Vlaanderen
Bretagne Classic
Kuurne - Brussel - Kuurne
De Panne
Hamburg Cyclassics
Frankfurt
Tre Valli Varesine

I'll add more races and the secondary classifications of the Giro and Vuelta later.

A list like this is only going to evoke needless discussion, as long as it isn't divided into categories per points. Surely not every race in the list is accredited with fewer points than the race one place higher on the list, so why present it as such. Also for me green jerseys or polka dots have no place in this list. Green jersey winners already get the points from their actual stage placings/wins, so you would be awarding them twice for the same effort. So that is completely different from an overal GC win. And past decades polka dots have turned into a mickey mouse rating for the least talented climber who is riding for a team that has nothing better to do. Rating it above WT stage races is a farce.

 

[theyoungest]

A list like this is only going to evoke needless discussion, as long as it isn't divided into categories per points. Surely not every race in the list is accredited with fewer points than the race one place higher on the list, so why present it as such. Also for me green jerseys or polka dots have no place in this list. Green jersey winners already get the points from their actual stage placings/wins, so you would be awarding them twice for the same effort. So that is completely different from an overal GC win. And past decades polka dots have turned into a mickey mouse rating for the least talented climber who is riding for a team that has nothing better to do. Rating it above WT stage races is a farce.

Prestige is difficult to measure, but I think a polka dot jersey has more prestige than winning the Tour Down Under or De Panne. I think most cycling fans will at least be able to name a few of the recent winners of the polka dot jersey. But not the TDU (in fact, I had to think long and hard to remember who won it this year).

 

[Netserk]

A list like this is only going to evoke needless discussion, as long as it isn't divided into categories per points. Surely not every race in the list is accredited with fewer points than the race one place higher on the list, so why present it as such. Also for me green jerseys or polka dots have no place in this list. Green jersey winners already get the points from their actual stage placings/wins, so you would be awarding them twice for the same effort. So that is completely different from an overal GC win. And past decades polka dots have turned into a mickey mouse rating for the least talented climber who is riding for a team that has nothing better to do. Rating it above WT stage races is a farce.

So it made no difference to Cavendish that he won green in 2011 for the first time?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Prestige is difficult to measure, but I think a polka dot jersey has more prestige than winning the Tour Down Under or De Panne. I think most cycling fans will at least be able to name a few of the recent winners of the polka dot jersey. But not the TDU (in fact, I had to think long and hard to remember who won it this year).

They will know because they have been watching the TDF regardless. But not because they have been watching the TDF because of the polka dots. If that were the deciding factor, you might as well include Super Combativité. Also De Panne isn't a WT stage race.

What is a polka dot jersey anyway. And if it doesn't result in high GC or stage placings, what is the use of it? It's not about being the best climber, because those guys actually go for GC. This would rate a guy who doesn't have the talent to go for a top 10 and goes for polka dots instead, higher than a guy actually finishing inside the top 10.

 

[Netserk]

In 1969 Merckx as the only rider won all three jerseys in the Tour, but that feat was without any value in itself, compared to his other Tour victories. Okay.

 

[theyoungest]

They will know because they have been watching the TDF regardless. But not because they have been watching the TDF because of the polka dots. If that were the deciding factor, you might as well include Super Combativité. Also De Panne isn't a WT stage race.

What is a polka dot jersey anyway. And if it doesn't result in high GC or stage placings, what is the use of it? It's not about being the best climber, because those guys actually go for GC. This would rate a guy who doesn't have the talent to go for a top 10 and goes for polka dots instead, higher than a guy actually finishing inside the top 10.

No, De Panne isn't a stage race (anymore). It is Worldtour though (doesn't deserve to be, but it is).

The polka dot jersey has way more prestige than Super Combativité. I don't think there's any discussion about that. That the jersey in itself has become a bit more meaningless, well, same goes for the green jersey, I suppose. This year it just happened to be won by the best sprinter, just like last year the best climber won polka dots.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

No, De Panne isn't a stage race (anymore). It is Worldtour though (doesn't deserve to be, but it is).

The polka dot jersey has way more prestige than Super Combativité. I don't think there's any discussion about that. That the jersey in itself has become a bit more meaningless, well, same goes for the green jersey, I suppose. This year it just happened to be won by the best sprinter, just like last year the best climber won polka dots.

As i said, the green jersey is (unlike the polka dots) not meaningless, because you can only win it by finishing high in stages or even better, winning stages) however, rewarding the green jersey in an all times ranking, means you reward those riders twice for the same thing, as they will already get points for stage wins and high placings.

 

[Netserk]

As i said, the green jersey is (unlike the polka dots) not meaningless, because you can only win it by finishing high in stages or even better, winning stages) however, rewarding the green jersey in an all times ranking, means you reward those riders twice for the same thing, as they will already get points for stage wins and high placings.

Sagan won 12 stages in the Tour, Cav won more stages even if you only count from 2012 onwards. Who got most out of the Tour from 2012-2021? It’s not a close call, but good luck capturing that without valuing the green jersey.

 

[Red Rick]

Sagan won 12 stages in the Tour, Cav won more stages even if you only count from 2012 onwards. Who got most out of the Tour from 2012-2021? It’s not a close call, but good luck capturing that without valuing the green jersey.

IMO you can value points jerseys or KOM jerseys in GTs like a bonus stage win.

 

[Netserk]

I wanted to put a Tour stage win in the ranking as well, but couldn’t quite decide where to put it. Probably between TDU and KBK. At the very least above Frankfurt.

That’s quite a bit lower than the green jersey.

 

[Netserk]

I think the green jersey is by far Michael Matthews’s greatest achievement, and I’m sure he wouldn’t trade it for another stage win.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

I don't understand how it's possible to think the green jersey isn't worth more than a stage win. For the likes of Sagan and Zabel, their green jersey hauls are far, far more career-defining than their arrays of stage wins, but they naturally have less of the former. I also don't think there's a single green jersey winner who would have traded that achievement for a stage win.

The KOM jersey has admittedly lost much of its shine but it was a huge deal for decades, so in an all-time ranking you have to place a fair amount of value on it. If you're only looking at this century, then yes, it isn't worth more than a stage win, but that's not what the discussion was about.

On the other hand, the OCTT and WCTT definitely go above all one-week stage races for me. The latter are never much more than preparation races, the former can be season-defining targets. At the very least, they should be on par with the biggest non-monument classics - Amstel, GW, Flèche - and IMO they're worth slightly more than those too.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

I also don't think there's a single green jersey winner who would have traded that achievement for a stage win.

On second thought, Cavendish probably would... but that's only because one more stage win would make him the sole record holder, not because of the value of an individual stage win.