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Rough Attempt at an All-Time Ranking
Page 34 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Also for me green jerseys or polka dots have no place in this list. Green jersey winners already get the points from their actual stage placings/wins, so you would be awarding them twice for the same effort. So that is completely different from an overal GC win. And past decades polka dots have turned into a mickey mouse rating for the least talented climber who is riding for a team that has nothing better to do.
You have a point, but I do think these two jerseys add something to a career. Winning two stages + green is better than two stages without green. All those efforts of joining breaks in mountain stages and of sprinting for places of honor do deserve a reward, the equivalent of an extra stage win.
Nobody will claim that Ciccone was the best climber in this Tour, but the efforts he did, spread over three weeks, make him a deserving winner of the polka dot jersey. Van Impe is as much remembered for winning it six times as for winning the yellow once. So I think these secondary competitions still have their merit.
In order to make Green AND Yellow more attractive and give sprinters a chance to compete for the GC, I would introduce 2 intermediate sprints in every single flat / intermediate stage, but not only with more points for green in flat / medium hilly stages, but also with 60s / 40s / 20s for 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the intermediate.
This would increase the number of GC contenders, make for incredible come-backs, and more (tactical) racing among the GC favourites even on flat stages.
+ It would be the way to go for WvA to finally win the Tour.
I've proposed something similar on other threads. Regarding GT lesser jerseys: I valued them more before I acquired a better understanding of grand tour dynamics. I'd keep a sprinters' prize, however; if you design a route with 5-7 sprint stages there should be a significant reward for excellence.
You have a point, but I do think these two jerseys add something to a career. Winning two stages + green is better than two stages without green. All those efforts of joining breaks in mountain stages and of sprinting for places of honor do deserve a reward, the equivalent of an extra stage win.
Nobody will claim that Ciccone was the best climber in this Tour, but the efforts he did, spread over three weeks, make him a deserving winner of the polka dot jersey. Van Impe is as much remembered for winning it six times as for winning the yellow once. So I think these secondary competitions still have their merit.
They have merrit and meaning. That doesn't mean they have to be a part of a point based all time ranking. Is Ciccone's TDF more impressive than Rodriguez'? F* no, not even close. So if you want to give points for that, it should not be more than a 10th place in GC.
There are plenty of roles that can fill a career. Superdomestiques (Kuss, Majka...) lead-out (Morkov, Van Poppel...) that don't get rewarded with "points" while highly regarded.
As for green, like i said numerous times, those riders already get points for their placings and wins. If that gets included, then also include extra points for the overal UCI ranking.
Announcement: After ruminating about the discussions of the past two years I have decided to make a few adjustments to the point system.
*The Tour winner gets 60 points instead of 50.
*The second and third of the road race at WC/Olympics get 16 and 8 points instead of 20 and 10.
*The winner of Paris-Tours gets 10 points instead of 15.
The result feels like an improvement. The top 16 remains the same, but there are some interesting changes after that:
*Froome (#17) switches places with Jalabert (#18).
*Bobet (#19) and Contador (#20) enter the top 20, while Saronni (#22) and Maertens (#24) drop out.
*Pogacar (#25) is now slightly ahead of Roglic (#26).
*Multiple Tour winners LeMond (#41) and Fignon (#44) jump over Cavendish (#46).
*Van Aert (#77) loses a few places because of his silver medals. He’s below Alaphilippe (#73) again.
*Evenepoel (#80) continues his rise by winning San Sebastian.
*Vingegaard (#115) enters even higher.
*Démare (#146) loses ten places because of Paris-Tours.
*Bjarne Riis would now be at #181.
Here is the complete, updated top 180 between spoiler tags:
1 Eddy Merckx 2027
2 Bernard Hinault 1266
3 Jacques Anquetil 1075
4 Fausto Coppi 1032
5 Gino Bartali 1009
6 Sean Kelly 958
7 Alejandro Valverde 921
8 Roger De Vlaeminck 873
9 Francesco Moser 830
10 Alfredo Binda 789
11 Felice Gimondi 778
12 Miguel Induráin 773
13 Rik Van Looy 688
14 Costante Girardengo 675
15 Fabian Cancellara 667
16 Joop Zoetemelk 657 17 Chris Froome 656
18 Laurent Jalabert 624
19 Louison Bobet 621
20 Alberto Contador 619
21 Tony Rominger 600
22 Giuseppe Saronni 599
23 Vincenzo Nibali 594
24 Freddy Maertens 594 25 Tadej Pogačar 581
26 Primož Roglič 563
27 Tom Boonen 523 28 Peter Sagan 520
29 Rik Van Steenbergen 484
30 Fiorenzo Magni 475
31 Learco Guerra 474
32 Ferdi Kübler 473
33 Philippe Gilbert 454
34 Franco Bitossi 452
35 Johan Museeuw 446
36 Erik Zabel 442
37 Luis Ocaña 441
38 Mario Cipollini 436
39 Jan Ullrich 433
40 Paolo Bettini 432
41 Greg LeMond 429
42 Raymond Poulidor 425
43 Gianni Bugno 423
44 Laurent Fignon 418
45 Jan Raas 416 46 Mark Cavendish 415
47 Moreno Argentin 409 48 Nairo Quintana 388
49 Nicolas Frantz 385
50 Alex Zülle 383
51 Joaquim Rodríguez 377
52 Herman Vanspringel 369
53 Oscar Freire 359
54 Alexander Vinokourov 356
55 Charly Gaul 348
56 Hugo Koblet 339
57 Walter Godefroot 336
58 Michele Bartoli 335
59 Gaetano Belloni 334
60 Jan Janssen 332
61 Henri Pélissier 332
62 Antonin Magne 331
63 Charly Mottet 324
64 André Leducq 323
65 Stephen Roche 322
66 Pedro Delgado 322
67 Giovanni Brunero 322
68 Bernard Thévenet 317
69 Claudio Chiappucci 317
70 Cadel Evans 309
71 Abraham Olano 308
72 François Faber 307 73 Julian Alaphilippe 307
74 Philippe Thys 305
75 Vittorio Adorni 303
76 Rudi Altig 303 77 Wout Van Aert 303
78 Alessandro Petacchi 300
79 Hennie Kuiper 296 80 Remco Evenepoel 295
81 Roberto Heras 289
82 Gustave Garrigou 284
83 Bradley Wiggins 279
84 Davide Rebellin 276
85 Briek Schotte 275
86 Gianbattista Baronchelli 273
87 Tony Martin 266
88 Fred De Bruyne 265
89 Gianni Motta 264
90 André Darrigade 263
91 Nino Defilippis 262
92 Lucien Van Impe 261
93 Phil Anderson 255
94 Federico Bahamontes 254
95 Gilberto Simoni 253
96 Marino Lejarreta 253
97 Stan Ockers 249
98 Damiano Cunego 247
99 Julián Berrendero 242
100 Eric Vanderaerden 242
101 Marco Pantani 241 102 Michał Kwiatkowski 240
103 Michel Pollentier 239 104 Geraint Thomas 238
105 Samuel Sánchez 237
106 Rolf Sørensen 236
107 Danilo Di Luca 234
108 Francesco Casagrande 234
109 Jean Stablinski 232
110 Ivan Basso 230
111 Pascal Richard 227
112 Delio Rodríguez 226 113Mathieu van der Poel 224
114 Raymond Impanis 224 115 Jonas Vingegaard 222
116 Greg Van Avermaet 222
117 Sylvère Maes 221
118 Lucien Petit-Breton 218
119 Gastone Nencini 218
120 Dietrich Thurau 218 121 Alexander Kristoff 216
122 Tom Dumoulin 213
123 Octave Lapize 210
124 Marcel Kint 210
125 Gerrie Knetemann 208
126 Thor Hushovd 206
127 Carlos Sastre 205 128 Richard Carapaz 204
129 Robbie McEwen 204
130 Denis Menchov 203
131 Stefano Garzelli 202
132 Adrie van der Poel 202
133 Claude Criquielion 200
134 Luis Herrera 198
135 Miguel María Lasa 198
136 Michele Dancelli 197
137 Pavel Tonkov 196
138 Ottavio Bottecchia 195
139 Giovanni Battaglin 195
140 Eddy Planckaert 195
141 Giuseppe Olmo 194
142 Guido Bontempi 193
143 Richard Virenque 193
144 Georges Ronsse 192
145 Miguel Poblet 192 146 Arnaud Démare 192
147 José Manuel Fuente 189
148 Jean Alavoine 189
149 Georges Speicher 186
150 Heiri Suter 185
151 Maurizio Fondriest 182
152 Andy Schleck 181
153 Andrei Tchmil 181
154 Frans Verbeeck 181
155 Mariano Cañardo 180 156 Egan Bernal 177
157 Peter Van Petegem 174 158 John Degenkolb 172
159 Joaquim Agostinho 172
160 Maurice De Waele 171
161 Ercole Baldini 171 162 Jakob Fuglsang 170
163 Italo Zilioli 170
164 Louis Trousselier 168
165 Frank Vandenbroucke 168
166 Erik Breukink 168 167 Rui Costa 166
168 Roger Pingeon 164
169 Roger Lapébie 164
170 Tom Steels 161
171 Robert Millar 156
172 Andrea Tafi 155
173 Giovanni Valetti 154
174 Daniel Martin 154
175 Steven Rooks 154 176 Rigoberto Urán 154
177 Marino Basso 153
178 André Greipel 153
179 Paolo Savoldelli 152 180 Edvald Boasson Hagen 152
Thanks. If they had just allowed Pantani to finish the Giro '99 he would have been at #83, just ahead of Wiggins. And without the crash in Milan-Torino '95 and his later problems he probably could have been much higher. He had one super year and a legacy that speaks more to the imagination than riders with a longer and more regular career.
Pantani is a clear case of having a much bigger legend than palmares. And I don't even think being the last to win the Giro-Tour double has much to do with that.
Pantani is a clear case of having a much bigger legend than palmares. And I don't even think being the last to win the Giro-Tour double has much to do with that.
That, I think, is the general problem with a point based all time ranking system. There is no non hyper subjective way to reflect 'greatness' in such a system and a more consistent rider will outperform a 'great' rider that has less total results to show for.
Even if you'd hand out extra points for combined achievements, the problem will be that it's already hard enough to allocate points to races, it's even harder to allocate points to achievements. Basically the "extra achievements" are exceptions, so one could argue that the more often they're achieved, the less valuable they get. How for example would one rate a Giro-Tour double. now that it hasn't been done in nearly 3 decades? The extra achievements are also rather different scructures than races, so it's hard to equate say the Ardennes tripple to a certain number of stage wins in a GT for example.
Good luck with the endeavor, and I hope that you are a mathematician and software designer. The perfect ranking would need to take into account so many factors such as the importance of a race then and now which was recently mentioned, definitely the level of opposition, the margin of loss or victory says something too but not always: Hinault won the '80 LBL by 9'24". Great for him...but should that make Kuiper's 2nd place a shame that is held against him for his own ranking?
Leaving cardinality aside, what is the order of the prestige of victories currently? If we can agree on that, it should make a ranking easier.
A first attempt:
Tour de France
Giro d'Italia
Vuelta a España
Olympic Games Road Race
World Championships Road Race
Paris - Roubaix
Ronde van Vlaanderen
Liège - Bastogne - Liège
Giro di Lombardia
Milano - Sanremo
Dauphiné Libéré
Tour de Suisse
Paris - Nice
Itzulia
Tirreno - Adriatico
Volta a Cataluña
Amstel Gold Race
Gent - Wevelgem
Tour de Romandie
Olympic Games Time Trial
Flèche Wallone
World Championships Time Trial
Tour de France Green Jersey
E3 Harelbeke
Strade Bianche
San Sebastian
Tour de France Polka Dot Jersey
European Championships Road Race
Omloop
GP de Québec
GP de Montréal
UAE Tour
Tour de Pologne
Benelux Tour
Tour Down Under
Giro dell'Emilia
Milano - Torino
Dwars door Vlaanderen
Bretagne Classic
Kuurne - Brussel - Kuurne
De Panne
Hamburg Cyclassics
Frankfurt
Tre Valli Varesine
I'll add more races and the secondary classifications of the Giro and Vuelta later.
Tier 1: Tour (30/22/17/13/10/8/6/4/2/1)
Tier 2: Giro and Vuelta (25/20/16/12/10/8/6/4/2/1)
Tier 3: Olympic RR and worlds RR (20/15/12/9/7/5/4/3/2/1)
Tier 4: MSR/RVV/PR/LBL/Lombardia/PM/TA/CDD/TDS (15/12/9/7/6/5/4/3/2/1)
Tier 5: Olympic TT/ World TT/ Strade Bianchi (12/10/8/7/6/5/4/3/2/1)
Tier 6: All other world tour races (10/9/8/7/6/5/4/3/2/1)
Tier 7: GT stages (3/2/1)
Tier 8: PN/TA/CDD/TDS stages (2/1)
Tier 9: All other world tour stages (1)
Tier 10: Pro series races (0). NO points for sub world tour races
Tier 1: Tour (30/22/17/13/10/8/6/4/2/1)
Tier 2: Giro and Vuelta (25/20/16/12/10/8/6/4/2/1)
Tier 3: Olympic RR and worlds RR (20/15/12/9/7/5/4/3/2/1)
Tier 4: MSR/RVV/PR/LBL/Lombardia/PM/TA/CDD/TDS (15/12/9/7/6/5/4/3/2/1)
Tier 5: Olympic TT/ World TT/ Strade Bianchi (12/10/8/7/6/5/4/3/2/1)
Tier 6: All other world tour races (10/9/8/7/6/5/4/3/2/1)
Tier 7: GT stages (3/2/1)
Tier 8: PN/TA/CDD/TDS stages (2/1)
Tier 9: All other world tour stages (1)
Tier 10: Pro series races (0). NO points for sub world tour races
How do you deal with high prestige non WT races? For example Paris-Tours vs Cadel Evans Ocean race. Or stage races like the Tour of the Alps/Belgium vs Gree-Tour of Guangxi.
How do you deal with high prestige non WT races? For example Paris-Tours vs Cadel Evans Ocean race. Or stage races like the Tour of the Alps/Belgium vs Gree-Tour of Guangxi.
We've had two years of discussion, change, agreement, disagreement and lots of consequent time productively used or wasted.
Just like go give a big thank you to Pantani Lives for the original effort and subsequent tweaks and updates.
My view is there ain't much wrong with his original .
Tier 1: Tour (30/22/17/13/10/8/6/4/2/1)
Tier 2: Giro and Vuelta (25/20/16/12/10/8/6/4/2/1)
Tier 3: Olympic RR and worlds RR (20/15/12/9/7/5/4/3/2/1)
Tier 4: MSR/RVV/PR/LBL/Lombardia/PM/TA/CDD/TDS (15/12/9/7/6/5/4/3/2/1)
Tier 5: Olympic TT/ World TT/ Strade Bianchi (12/10/8/7/6/5/4/3/2/1)
Tier 6: All other world tour races (10/9/8/7/6/5/4/3/2/1)
Tier 7: GT stages (3/2/1)
Tier 8: PN/TA/CDD/TDS stages (2/1)
Tier 9: All other world tour stages (1)
Tier 10: Pro series races (0). NO points for sub world tour races
Not sure if it can be done quickly or not, but I wonder how the results would change with this system that favors top 10s vs the one Pantani Lives came up with that favors victories more
Not sure if it can be done quickly or not, but I wonder how the results would change with this system that favors top 10s vs the one Pantani Lives came up with that favors victories more
Not sure if it can be done quickly or not, but I wonder how the results would change with this system that favors top 10s vs the one Pantani Lives came up with that favors victories more
No, it can't be done quickly. Riders with lots of places of honor - like Valverde, Poulidor and Zoetemelk - would win places, which probably wouldn't be applauded.
Mini-update after the WC:
68. Evenepoel 320
69. Van Aert 319
90. Van der Poel 264
Evenepoel jumps over Van Aert by one point, becoming No. 11 of the Belgians. Van der Poel enters the top 100, becoming No. 5 of the Dutch. Van Aert is still ahead of Van der Poel, because of those five silver medals and those nine Tour stages.
Pogacar stays at #25. Ganna might enter the list next year.
1 Eddy Merckx 2027
2 Bernard Hinault 1266
3 Jacques Anquetil 1075
4 Fausto Coppi 1032
5 Gino Bartali 1009
6 Sean Kelly 958
7 Alejandro Valverde 921
8 Roger De Vlaeminck 873
9 Francesco Moser 830
10 Alfredo Binda 789
11 Felice Gimondi 778
12 Miguel Induráin 773
13 Rik Van Looy 688
14 Costante Girardengo 675
15 Fabian Cancellara 667
16 Joop Zoetemelk 657 17 Chris Froome 656
18 Laurent Jalabert 624
19 Louison Bobet 621
20 Alberto Contador 619
21 Tony Rominger 600
22 Giuseppe Saronni 599
23 Vincenzo Nibali 594
24 Freddy Maertens 594 25 Tadej Pogačar 589
26 Primož Roglič 563
27 Tom Boonen 523 28 Peter Sagan 520
29 Rik Van Steenbergen 484
30 Fiorenzo Magni 475
31 Learco Guerra 474
32 Ferdi Kübler 473
33 Philippe Gilbert 454
34 Franco Bitossi 452
35 Johan Museeuw 446
36 Erik Zabel 442
37 Luis Ocaña 441
38 Mario Cipollini 436
39 Jan Ullrich 433
40 Paolo Bettini 432
41 Greg LeMond 429
42 Raymond Poulidor 425
43 Gianni Bugno 423
44 Laurent Fignon 418
45 Jan Raas 416 46 Mark Cavendish 415
47 Moreno Argentin 409 48 Nairo Quintana 388
49 Nicolas Frantz 385
50 Alex Zülle 383
51 Joaquim Rodríguez 377
52 Herman Vanspringel 369
53 Oscar Freire 359
54 Alexander Vinokourov 356
55 Charly Gaul 348
56 Hugo Koblet 339
57 Walter Godefroot 336
58 Michele Bartoli 335
59 Gaetano Belloni 334
60 Jan Janssen 332
61 Henri Pélissier 332
62 Antonin Magne 331
63 Charly Mottet 324
64 André Leducq 323
65 Stephen Roche 322
66 Pedro Delgado 322
67 Giovanni Brunero 322 68 Remco Evenepoel 320
69 Wout Van Aert 319
70 Bernard Thévenet 317
71 Claudio Chiappucci 317
72 Cadel Evans 309
73 Abraham Olano 308
74 François Faber 307 75 Julian Alaphilippe 307
76 Philippe Thys 305
77 Vittorio Adorni 303
78 Rudi Altig 303
79 Alessandro Petacchi 300
80 Hennie Kuiper 296
81 Roberto Heras 289
82 Gustave Garrigou 284
83 Bradley Wiggins 279
84 Davide Rebellin 276
85 Briek Schotte 275
86 Gianbattista Baronchelli 273
87 Tony Martin 266
88 Fred De Bruyne 265
89 Gianni Motta 264 90 Mathieu van der Poel 264
91 André Darrigade 263
92 Nino Defilippis 262
93 Lucien Van Impe 261
94 Phil Anderson 255
95 Federico Bahamontes 254
96 Gilberto Simoni 253
97 Marino Lejarreta 253
98 Stan Ockers 249
99 Damiano Cunego 247
100 Julián Berrendero 242
101 Eric Vanderaerden 242
102 Marco Pantani 241 103 Michał Kwiatkowski 240
104 Michel Pollentier 239 105 Geraint Thomas 238
106 Samuel Sánchez 237
107 Rolf Sørensen 236
108 Danilo Di Luca 234
109 Francesco Casagrande 234
110 Jean Stablinski 232
111 Ivan Basso 230
112 Pascal Richard 227
113 Delio Rodríguez 226
114 Raymond Impanis 224 115 Jonas Vingegaard 222
116 Greg Van Avermaet 222
117 Sylvère Maes 221
118 Lucien Petit-Breton 218
119 Gastone Nencini 218
120 Dietrich Thurau 218 121 Alexander Kristoff 216
122 Tom Dumoulin 213
123 Octave Lapize 210
124 Marcel Kint 210
125 Gerrie Knetemann 208
126 Thor Hushovd 206
127 Carlos Sastre 205
128 Robbie McEwen 204 129 Richard Carapaz 204
130 Denis Menchov 203
131 Stefano Garzelli 202
132 Adrie van der Poel 202
133 Claude Criquielion 200
134 Luis Herrera 198
135 Miguel María Lasa 198
136 Michele Dancelli 197
137 Pavel Tonkov 196
138 Ottavio Bottecchia 195
139 Giovanni Battaglin 195
140 Eddy Planckaert 195
141 Giuseppe Olmo 194
142 Richard Virenque 193
143 Georges Ronsse 192
144 Miguel Poblet 192 145 Arnaud Démare 192
146 José Manuel Fuente 189
147 Jean Alavoine 189
148 Guido Bontempi 187
149 Georges Speicher 186
150 Heiri Suter 185
151 Maurizio Fondriest 182
152 Andy Schleck 181
153 Andrei Tchmil 181
154 Frans Verbeeck 181
155 Mariano Cañardo 180 156 Egan Bernal 177
157 Peter Van Petegem 174
158 Adolfo Leoni 174
159 Carlo Galetti 172 160 John Degenkolb 172
161 Joaquim Agostinho 172
162 Maurice De Waele 171
163 Ercole Baldini 171 164 Jakob Fuglsang 170
165 Luigi Ganna 170
166 Italo Zilioli 170
167 Louis Trousselier 168
168 Germain Derycke 168
169 Frank Vandenbroucke 168
170 Erik Breukink 168
171 Andreas Klöden 167 172 Rui Costa 166
173 Pasquale Fornara 166
174 Roger Pingeon 164
175 Roger Lapébie 164
176 Franco Balmamion 164
177 Tom Simpson 163
178 Jef Planckaert 163 179 Simon Yates 163
180 Tom Steels 161
181 Firmin Lambot 160
182 Gaston Rebry 159
183 Domingo Perurena 158
184 Laurent Dufaux 157
185 Robert Millar 156
186 Ritchie Porte 156
187 Andrew Hampsten 155
188 Andrea Tafi 155
189 Giovanni Valetti 154
190 Daniel Martin 154
191 Steven Rooks 154
192 Eric Leman 154
193 Fränk Schleck 154 194 Rigoberto Urán 154
195 Marino Basso 153
196 André Greipel 153
197 Paolo Savoldelli 152 198 Edvald Boasson Hagen 152
199 Bjarne Riis 151
200 Maurice Garin 150
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