Rough Attempt at an All-Time Ranking

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I'm so glad the headline for the thread is "Rough Attempt at an All Time Ranking", not "Absolute Definitive All Time Ranking". Because even if we stuck to just TdF champions, that would be hard enough as it is.
Quite hard to compare modern cycling to the Hinault/Fignon/Lemond era, not to mention even further back in time.
 
Honestly, I'm not following you here. No "lack of direct competition?" What do you mean?
I don't know what you can't understand? Do you think that either Evans Ewan or Vingegaard considers the other to be in competition with them, challenging their goals, when they take to a start line together?

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I don't know what you can't understand? Do you think that either Evans Ewan or Vingegaard considers the other to be in competition with them, challenging their goals, when they take to a start line together?

Editted, see 2 following posts
Ah right, but were talking about the difference in strength vs speed, and in all the most prestigious races of the sport the strong men reap the greatest rewards: monuments, GTs, most Worlds and all major stage races. So the type of non-agonistic confrontation you take odds with is a false premise. The point is moot in the economy of racing.
 
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No, read again, it's monuments and Worlds and GTs, with the Tour being (historically) the most prestigious event. Sprinters, while great cyclists, aren't at the top of the pecking order. And sprinters would agree.
But the discussion is not just about identifying an all time no 1 (it would be a very short thread if it were), it is about a ranking to compare riders of different eras and different skill sets.
 
It's a chess set.
And Carlos Sastre and Egan Bernal are queens? What are their multiple movement options? Are they just in a wrong position on the chess board? I would consider someone like Van Aert to be the queen of the chess set, yet he‘s never going to win this supposed holy grail that you make the Tour de France out to be. Or are GC riders the kings, meaning they are most important, but pretty useless? That would certainly not help placing them at the top of the cyclist hierarchy you are considering.

So, sprinters must be the kings, right? They have all the pieces and pawns work to ensure they get to the end. Well, certainly not a perfect comparison.

Or have I missed you clearing up the confusion that this chess set analogy causes in me? I certainly don‘t understand this cryptic.
 
And Carlos Sastre and Egan Bernal are queens? What are their multiple movement options? Are they just in a wrong position on the chess board? I would consider someone like Van Aert to be the queen of the chess set, yet he‘s never going to win this supposed holy grail that you make the Tour de France out to be. Or are GC riders the kings, meaning they are most important, but pretty useless? That would certainly not help placing them at the top of the cyclist hierarchy you are considering.

So, sprinters must be the kings, right? They have all the pieces and pawns work to ensure they get to the end. Well, certainly not a perfect comparison.

Or have I missed you clearing up the confusion that this chess set analogy causes in me? I certainly don‘t understand this cryptic.
Well if you don't think the Tour is the holy grail of the sport, I can't help you. And it was decided in the Belle Epoche, tradition and all that. If there was an ever more appropriate analogy than that, I can't think of one. Lazy July days, sunflowers and lavader, Boudeaux wines and so forth, isn't it? As for the rest, you are overthinking things. But, guess what? I actually prefer the Giro, Vuelta the monuments, Worlds and numerous other races
 
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The Tour is the holy grail to the extent that the Grand National is the acme of horse racing. It might be the one that gains the attention of those that otherwise have no interest in the sport, and whose result is remembered for longest and that generates storylines for the popular press, and in one subsection of the sport, it is among the major tests of the year. But to those who follow the sport in detail it is by no means the be all and end all that others might think.
 
The Tour is the holy grail to the extent that the Grand National is the acme of horse racing. It might be the one that gains the attention of those that otherwise have no interest in the sport, and whose result is remembered for longest and that generates storylines for the popular press, and in one subsection of the sport, it is among the major tests of the year. But to those who follow the sport in detail it is by no means the be all and end all that others might think.
Of course not and I've never said that it was, as knowledgable cycling fans are well aware. But it does mean ( the Tour as cycling's Holy Grail with its Golden Fleece) that the rider who wins it, if not always to the same degree, stands at the top of the sport that year. Look, there isn't much to argue about here. In a sport that places greatest glory in events that require endurance and resistance to fatigue, wearing yellow in Paris is simply the apogee. Ask any pro and he will tell you the same. I mean, that's obvious. This doesn't mean, however, that there aren't other prestigious events, the winning of any one of them makes a career. Yet if they say, "but the Tour is the Tour," there must be a reason. And if the Tour is the only race, as one pro recently put it, that is bigger than cycling itself, this not only means that the event is even known to people with only a passing or no interest in cycling (and thus generates headlines like no other race, while being the cash cow for team sponsors - something like 70 percent of all annual publicity pro cycling generates is bound to the Tour alone which is positively astounding); but that, because of this, every rider from lowly domestique to team capitan is expected to arrive at the start in his absolute top shape. No other event on the calendar is like that. So the Tour, rather than being a mere "subsection of the sport," is rather a microcosm of pro cycling for three weeks around France; where the best sprinters in the world, the best classics riders, TTers, climbers and best GT podium candidates, vie against their colleagues to establish who that year is the best sprinter, rouleur, puncheur, climber, TTer and GT king. For this reason the competition is far tougher, across the various disciplines and for overall glory, than any other event in the sport. And this is why, like it or not, the Tour winner stands at the top of cycling's pecking order. Hence, saying that the Tour is only the Grand National of cycling, really demonstrates a lack of awareness of the issues at hand and the forces at work. Plus the Tour, along with the Olympics and FIFA Worlds, is the most watched sporting event on earth. For a sport that is relatively poor and not as popular as some others, this is truely remarkable, nay absolutely mind-boggling, and only underscores how massive is the status and prestige given, not only to the Yellow Jersey wearer, but the sprinter, the climber, the TTr, etc., who demonstrated superiority over the 21 stages of the event. No, the Tour aint just some Grand National on two wheels.
 
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Best rider ever: Luis Ocana (so much for tabulating any points system)

Only rider to ride Merckx at his zenith off his wheel - and put 8-9 minutes into him in one stage!

In 1973 when he utterly dominated (as he would have done in 1971 as well without the fall) he still created gaps that have not been replicated since...

On pure talent, Ocana at his best was better than Merckx at his best. Unfortunately, it only happened rarely...

For example, stage 8 of the 1973 TDF: Moutiers - Les Orres, 237.5 km
Major ascents: Madeleine, Galibier, Izoard, and hilltop finish at Les Orres
  1. Luis Ocaña: 7hr 55min 47sec
  2. José-Manuel Fuente @ 58sec
  3. Mariano Martinez @ 6min 57sec
  4. Bernard Thévenet @ 6min 59sec
  5. Michel Périn @ 12min 33sec
  6. Joop Zoetemelk @ 20min 24sec
  7. Raymond Delisle s.t.
  8. Herman Van Springel s.t.
  9. Vicente López-Carril s.t.
  10. René Grelin s.t.
View: https://youtu.be/HRKkxkQYS-A
 
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Best rider ever: Luis Ocana (so much for tabulating any points system)

Only rider to ride Merckx at his zenith off his wheel - and put 8-9 minutes into him in one stage!

In 1973 when he utterly dominated (as he would have done in 1971 as well without the fall) he still created gaps that have not been replicated since...

On pure talent, Ocana at his best was better than Merckx at his best. Unfortunately, it only happened rarely...

For example, stage 8 of the 1973 TDF: Moutiers - Les Orres, 237.5 km
Major ascents: Madeleine, Galibier, Izoard, and hilltop finish at Les Orres
  1. Luis Ocaña: 7hr 55min 47sec
  2. José-Manuel Fuente @ 58sec
  3. Mariano Martinez @ 6min 57sec
  4. Bernard Thévenet @ 6min 59sec
  5. Michel Périn @ 12min 33sec
  6. Joop Zoetemelk @ 20min 24sec
  7. Raymond Delisle s.t.
  8. Herman Van Springel s.t.
  9. Vicente López-Carril s.t.
  10. René Grelin s.t.
View: https://youtu.be/HRKkxkQYS-A

How many times did Merckx beat Ocaña?
 
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did you read my entire post?

kind of pointing out why all-time lists are subjective, dependent on weighted criteria, and biases.

why it is perfectly “logical” to say that Remco had the best 2022 season but that Pog is still the best cyclist in the world.
Interesting, however, that when they both finished a Grand Tour together, at the 1973 Vuelta, Merckx was first and Ocana second. Merckx then went on to win the Giro, which started just 5 days later, leading from start to finish. Ocana, however, went on to win the Tour in the abscense of Merckx. Now that's a duel that never was.
 
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