Running-thread

[Tricycle Rider]

Can't vouch for the quality being I haven't seen this doc in many years, but here's -

Steve Prefontaine - Fire On The Track

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXF0MxTwNys

 

[Tricycle Rider]

Re:

I am going for Zola Budd for desert..

You must be really old (or at least my age) if your remember that story...

Was this at the '84 LA Olympics where Zola Budd wore no shoes, and she somehow clipped Mary Decker who then cried foul?

The drama back then, kids, the DRAMA!

EDIT - I never found fault with either runner, according to Wiki they now both accept some level of responsibility.

*** just happens during a race, ladies and gents, *** just happens.

 

[Unchained]

I guess I am a little bummed that one of you more knowledgeable on running didn't comment ....I watched some of the Berlin marathon and I got the chills watching Kipchoge run. the guy is incredible!!!!
I also watched some of the hybrid record attempt in Monza..motorpacing didn't do it but close...Eliud is fvcking awesome!!

 

[Tricycle Rider]

Re:

I guess I am a little bummed that one of you more knowledgeable on running didn't comment ....I watched some of the Berlin marathon and I got the chills watching Kipchoge run. the guy is incredible!!!!
I also watched some of the hybrid record attempt in Monza..motorpacing didn't do it but close...Eliud is fvcking awesome!!

It's probably because all of us old-time amateur runners would probably be more likely to be commenting downstairs at the Clinic.

Personally, I'm so out of the loop at this point of my age that I don't even care anymore.

 

[oldcrank]

Re:

Never knew anything about Betty Cuthbert..read a few good bits..worked hard for MS advocacy..the old photos are fascinating.. Australia had a population of @8.5 million back then..
Grew up in Paradise Vally\Scottsdale Arizona....Jesse Owens was on TV..doing public service announcement stuff.he was pretty old..it was many years later I got exposure to what his Olympic victory meant for him and Hitler..
I am always floored by early Australian athletics...landmass is equal to the U.S. ..it's like a big pie were everyone lives along the crust..I can't get over how many awesome athletes come out of this place!!!then and now..

You might be interested that the 138th running of the Easter Gift is taking place in Stawell, a town in rural Victoria, this weekend. The Gift is a 120m (formerly 130yd) handicapped professional sprint run on grass. There is also legal gambling on the event. Below is a video of the 50th Gift from 1927 when it may still have been the world's richest footrace. It is still a huge payday for the winners and historically many have doubled or tripled their winnings at the bookies expense.
https://youtu.be/E_n0OAC4_hA

 

[King Boonen]

I’m looking to buy a decent pair of running shoes that can be used on tarmac and light trails. It’s a long time since I bought running shoes, and the soles on all the ones I’ve been recommended look like they‘ve been made out of bananas That have been glued to the bottom of the shoe and painted white. Is this some change in tech or just a styling thing and actually the soles aren’t much different? I ran a marathon pre 2010 and that’s the last time I bought running shoes so I’ve been out the game a long time.

 

[firefly3323]

More marketing than anything imo. Lots of the advances are seemingly no real benefit for those of us that aren't world class. One caveat, I only run trails so my opinion might be skewed regarding road shoes.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

I’m looking to buy a decent pair of running shoes that can be used on tarmac and light trails. It’s a long time since I bought running shoes, and the soles on all the ones I’ve been recommended look like they‘ve been made out of bananas That have been glued to the bottom of the shoe and painted white. Is this some change in tech or just a styling thing and actually the soles aren’t much different? I ran a marathon pre 2010 and that’s the last time I bought running shoes so I’ve been out the game a long time.

Did you sustain any (long-term) injuries while distance running? That would be my first question anyway... to the young and fresh amateur runners shoes probably don't matter all that much (except for maybe showing off the brand and how much it cost), but once you've had enough injuries wearing a proper shoe may matter quite a bit more. So that's why I ask.

 

[Ultrairon]

I’m looking to buy a decent pair of running shoes that can be used on tarmac and light trails. It’s a long time since I bought running shoes, and the soles on all the ones I’ve been recommended look like they‘ve been made out of bananas That have been glued to the bottom of the shoe and painted white. Is this some change in tech or just a styling thing and actually the soles aren’t much different? I ran a marathon pre 2010 and that’s the last time I bought running shoes so I’ve been out the game a long time.

Lots of the shoes today no longer have the hard rubber that you would remember. Many go with foam direct to the road. Its the new trend. Also Carbon Fiber plates / lasting -- is becoming the norm.

 

[firefly3323]

Did you sustain any (long-term) injuries while distance running? That would be my first question anyway... to the young and fresh amateur runners shoes probably don't matter all that much (except for maybe showing off the brand and how much it cost), but once you've had enough injuries wearing a proper shoe may matter quite a bit more. So that's why I ask.

Yeah, finding a shoe that works for you in terms of your individual biomechanics is so crucial. For me, being a MASSIVE over-pronator creates a lot of difficulty finding good shoes. Even in the trail running category most makers have gotten away from stability and leaned towards 'minimus' type models.

 

[King Boonen]

Thanks all, to answer some of the points:

No injuries, I just dropped running and did more cycling as I had more time. My time is becoming increasingly limited, so I’m hoping to mix some running in with my cycling to maintain/improve fitness on days when spending 3+ hours in the saddle isn’t feasible. With that in mind, I’m not looking to get into racing again and I doubt I’ll run on anything more than maintained paths/very light trails in the dry.

I supernate, so neutral shoes are what I’m after. I’m mainly wondering if there’s an increase in foam in soles these days, and if there is I may have to move to a more “race” like shoe so the heel doesn’t feel like it’s collapsing (I tend to strike mid-foot to rear when I’m tired, my forefoot technique is reasonable on short, faster runs but I’m not really planning to do much of that).

I used to run in Nike Pegasus, but we are talking 15+ years ago and I have no idea if they’re still the kind of shoe I used to use.

I’d be cool running in trail shoes all the time, but there will be a fair bit of tarmac every now and then, so I’m undecided if I deal with less grip and go road shoes, or get trails shoes and deal with increased wear. I’m not up for buying both road and trail shoes, I‘m not intending to run enough to justify that.

If anyone has any recommendations I’m all ears, all the usual brands like Brooks, Mizuno, Saucony, Asics, Nike, Adidas, Salomon, etc. keep coming up in searches along with brands I’ve never heard of like Hoka, ON-Running, Under Armour (heard of their clothing, not their running shoes).

 

[firefly3323]

You might want to look into a pair of Altra -https://www.altrarunning.com/ . They are zero drop with a nice wide forefoot. With the zero drop you need to slowly work your way into using them (hour a day for a while) as you want your calf and Achilles to adjust.

Hoka are just too much stack for my taste but they do have a strong following. They made me feel like I was constantly about to turn an ankle.

Topo Athletic fall somewhere in between Hoka and Altra https://www.topoathletic.com/ . They have a small drop which think is better suited for the average heel strike runner.

I am a big fan of New Balance. They offer so many options in sizing and they make lots of stability choices as well. Additionally they do use the best quality materials so they last.


These brands do make models that are what I think of as groomed trail shoes - moderate lug and lesser rock plate/underfoot protection - which sound like a good option for you.

 

[King Boonen]

Oh, New Balance have come up a lot too, I think 1080s and maybe something like flowcell?

 

[firefly3323]

the fuelcell is very soft yet maintains responsiveness from what I have heard from people I know. Very popular choice. Though due to my need for motion control I have no first hand knowledge.

 

[King Boonen]

Cool, thanks. New Balance weren’t a big brand over here last time I was running.

 

[Ultrairon]

You might want to look into a pair of Altra -https://www.altrarunning.com/ . They are zero drop with a nice wide forefoot. With the zero drop you need to slowly work your way into using them (hour a day for a while) as you want your calf and Achilles to adjust.

Hoka are just too much stack for my taste but they do have a strong following. They made me feel like I was constantly about to turn an ankle.

Topo Athletic fall somewhere in between Hoka and Altra https://www.topoathletic.com/ . They have a small drop which think is better suited for the average heel strike runner.

I am a big fan of New Balance. They offer so many options in sizing and they make lots of stability choices as well. Additionally they do use the best quality materials so they last.


These brands do make models that are what I think of as groomed trail shoes - moderate lug and lesser rock plate/underfoot protection - which sound like a good option for you.

Good advice on the zero drop. Some folks are unable to tolerate them. I have always been a minimalist so for me those type of shoes work fine.

 

[King Boonen]

Yeah, everyone I’ve spoken too has warned me about zero drop. For a first pair and having not run for a long time I think I’ll stick in the 5-10mm range and then if I do more and my technique improves I’ll consider shorter/zero drop.

 

[jmdirt]

Running shoes have become an interesting category.
-Shoes with 0-5 mm drop.
--Could be 'minimal', but also could have regular construction just small/no drop.
-Shoes with 10+ mm drop.
--REALLY jacked up heals
--Massive stack is 'in'.

My right foot can't stand more than 5 mm drop so that eliminates a lot of shoes. My left foot eliminates a lot of shoes because of the toe box. For every 10 shoes I try on I find one that feels OK, but that's not a guarantee that they will be OK after 30 minutes.

I walk around in Converse Chuck Taylor because the are basically a sock with a vulcanized rubber sole, they just let my feet be my feet. Maybe they are the original barefoot shoe?

This post is a lot of help huh?!

 

[jmdirt]

Yeah, everyone I’ve spoken too has warned me about zero drop. For a first pair and having not run for a long time I think I’ll stick in the 5-10mm range and then if I do more and my technique improves I’ll consider shorter/zero drop.

The only thing I would say about that is that if you build your technique in 10 mm drop shoes, it might not be so great for 0 mm. Also, unless your everyday shoes are large drop/have a big heal, 0-5 drop isn't an issue. Its an issue for people who have a 12 mm shoe, go to a 0 and then do their same runs. The gastro, and Achilles get angry at first because the gasto has to move through a longer range and it pulls the crap out of the Achilles.

IMO 0-5 mm is better for natural strike.

 

[King Boonen]

Thanks @jmdirt , my walking around shoes are a mix or zero drop and some drop (I don’t have specific numbers though) and the ones with a bit of drop do seem better for longer walking. I’m almost certain my current shoes are zero drop, and my quads were not happy with me after running (but it was my first run in a very long time). I’m hoping I get to go to a specialist shop soon and I’ll see what they think as well.

 

[firefly3323]

The only thing I would say about that is that if you build your technique in 10 mm drop shoes, it might not be so great for 0 mm. Also, unless your everyday shoes are large drop/have a big heal, 0-5 drop isn't an issue. Its an issue for people who have a 12 mm shoe, go to a 0 and then do their same runs. The gastro, and Achilles get angry at first because the gasto has to move through a longer range and it pulls the crap out of the Achilles.

IMO 0-5 mm is better for natural strike.

Great point about consistency with every day shoes and runners.

I do love the feel of low/zero drop but due to my extreme pronation I need a good deal of correction. None of the low and zero makers offer a trail runner with the stability I need.

 

[jmdirt]

Great point about consistency with every day shoes and runners.

I do love the feel of low/zero drop but due to my extreme pronation I need a good deal of correction. None of the low and zero makers offer a trail runner with the stability I need.

Do you just pronate or do you initiate by supinating and then rolling over to pronate?
Flat feet, low arch, high arch?
Is your big toe your longest toe?

 

[firefly3323]

Do you just pronate or do you initiate by supinating and then rolling over to pronate?
Flat feet, low arch, high arch?
Is your big toe your longest toe?

Just pronate, and have a high arch. My podiatrist is in awe of how loose and flexible my ankles are. Probably saves me from some sprains/strains.
Big toe is about the same length as my second. I have developed pre dislocation syndrome on my right foot - address it with taping/strapping as I don't really want to go through the surgery.

 

[jmdirt]

Just pronate, and have a high arch. My podiatrist is in awe of how loose and flexible my ankles are. Probably saves me from some sprains/strains.
Big toe is about the same length as my second. I have developed pre dislocation syndrome on my right foot - address it with taping/strapping as I don't really want to go through the surgery.

Yes, avoid surgery at all costs, but sometimes/eventually you have to make a hard decision.

You have a podiatrist so I'm not going to say too much. Unless it causes pain, your pronation may be better off if you let it be, don't try to control it with your shoes. Let your high arches and flexible ankles do what they were designed to do. Obviously it won't feel right for a while because your feet and body are used to what you have been doing for x amount of time.

Anecdotal thought: I had a podiatrist that I went to when I first started having foot issues from having too much fun over the years. He is highly respected in the outdoor community (run, bike, ski, hike,...) here and has several thriving locations. I learned things from him, but he never really made an insole that made my feet much happier. I had a 35 mph meeting with high speed dirt and fractured my pelvis, and as part of the healing process got massage therapy twice a week. My therapist was an MD so she was more knowledgeable than most massage people (that's not a slight of massage people, I go to one lady who has a 6 month degree and she is great at getting me reset). At the end of each session she would manipulate my feet and point out all of the issues. I leaned a lot from her, and it has allowed me to stay active without too much agony from my destroyed feet. Although, my right foot might need some repair pretty soon. All that is to say, there's no harm in getting some other advice (maybe a little $).

 

[firefly3323]

Yes, avoid surgery at all costs, but sometimes/eventually you have to make a hard decision.

You have a podiatrist so I'm not going to say too much. Unless it causes pain, your pronation may be better off if you let it be, don't try to control it with your shoes. Let your high arches and flexible ankles do what they were designed to do. Obviously it won't feel right for a while because your feet and body are used to what you have been doing for x amount of time.

Anecdotal thought: I had a podiatrist that I went to when I first started having foot issues from having too much fun over the years. He is highly respected in the outdoor community (run, bike, ski, hike,...) here and has several thriving locations. I learned things from him, but he never really made an insole that made my feet much happier. I had a 35 mph meeting with high speed dirt and fractured my pelvis, and as part of the healing process got massage therapy twice a week. My therapist was an MD so she was more knowledgeable than most massage people (that's not a slight of massage people, I go to one lady who has a 6 month degree and she is great at getting me reset). At the end of each session she would manipulate my feet and point out all of the issues. I leaned a lot from her, and it has allowed me to stay active without too much agony from my destroyed feet. Although, my right foot might need some repair pretty soon. All that is to say, there's no harm in getting some other advice (maybe a little $).

Yeah, surgery on the 2nd metatarsal is something that I will probably need eventually but we will cross that bridge so to speak.

I do get moderate pain from the pronation as well as am susceptible to overuse injuries from it. I have tweaked what I do - rarely ever run back to back days, some foot strengthening exercises, etc - which helps a bit. One problem is that I am on my feet all day on hard flooring so in addition to my orthotics I wear a very stable sneaker (NB 1540V3).

Agree 100% about the massage. I just started getting a massage monthly and very impressive improvement. Not only the feet themselves, but the work done on the lower legs really helps the aches and pains.