Ryder's blood

[Weapons of @ss Destruction]

#2 Suddenly, in 2014, with Froome and Contador out, it was only Basso putting up extraordinary times.

Heh heh... you said Basso.

 

[ralphbert]

Heh heh... you said Basso.

Rabobasso has been MIA since 2006. Oh how I miss that snake like grimace with the decimated field in taters behind him.

And the comedy gold of "I only took the blood out, never put it back in" from Puerto. Good time, good times.

 

[Sciatic]

[quote=pmcg76;160679
Why the obsession with Hesjedal and not say Carlos Sastre

Um, perhaps because this is the Ryder thread?

 

[Benotti69]

......snipped.......

I am no Ostrich, I just don't have a fixated position that I am imcapable of moving from.

I have a fixed position on this. The anti doping system in place is not going to catch the majority of dopers.

There is no robust independent properly funded accountable anti doping system in place. Till that arrives those riders wishing to be seen as clean should be doing everything in their power to show us what they are doing.

Till that happens in this sport it SSDD.

Care to explain how Mr Clean Christophe Bassons finished 5th in a TT at Dunkirk at the height of the EPO era in 1997.

Care to explain how Hesjedal can win a GT clean? This is Ryders thread, you bring up bassons and yet he spoke up about others, yet Hesjedal doesn't nor does anyone at Garmin yet we are being told, not shown, this is a clean team and Ryder won that GT clean when his blood numbers tell us different, beating all those dopers. What is Santa bringing you for Xmas?

I dont care to believe in a doper, who wont face the fans or media, who hides away after it was revealed by a former team mate, not by his 'dedicate his life to anit-doping' team owner. And i dont believe JV would not get a sample that pointed to doping re checked double checked to prove to us that the machine made an error. Dont forget to leave out milk and cookies for Santa.

How about your claim that as EPO gives an advantage of 10% and that a rider finishing within 10% of that rider must also be doping?

Plenty have made the claim that EPO gave more than 10%, CERA was supposed to give up to 25%+.

But you go on believing that the likes of Riis, Rihs, Och, Lefevre, Vino, Martinelli, and JV are scared of anti doping so they dont have riders on programs, yet have lots of team doctors and some with 'great' reputations.....

My OPINION is that the sport has not changed. It didn't change with Festina, Op Puerto nor the Reasoned Decision. HEll JV sold some that when Armstrong left the sport so did doping...hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! and people fell for it.

It may be possible to win clean, but by heck if you did it clean you would be screaming from the highest MTF and showing everyone your data and asking that everything be rechecked and then rechecked and asking them to store your samples etc etc....yet not one GT or monument winner appears to be doing this. So go on believing wht these proven liars have told you without backing it up with actions.

I love cycling, and if i didn't i wouldn't bother with this echo chamber.

 

[Benotti69]

Why do you follow cycling anyway?

I love the sport. I want to watch a fantastic sport and think how amazing it is what these guys do without the constant thought of 'what are they on?'.

And when guys like Ryder do nothing to dissipate these thoughts i'll keep calling them on it with my opinion that they are liars, cheats, frauds and dopers.

 

[Benotti69]

"I refuse to prove that I am clean," says the professional cyclist, "for transparency denies faith, and without faith, I am a doper."

Isn't this how pro cycling works..........

 

[pmcg76]

I have a fixed position on this. The anti doping system in place is not going to catch the majority of dopers.

snipped

I love cycling, and if i didn't i wouldn't bother with this echo chamber.

This is hilarious. The ultimate politician speak. Talk about stuff other than the very direct questions being asked.

I am reminded of that infamous clip with Newsnight(British Political show) presenter Jeremy Paxman when he asked a politican a very simple question which the politician talked around but didn't answer, so Paxman kept asking and the politician kept dancing around the question about 10 times with Paxman getting more frustrated and demanding the question be answered but the politican continued to dance.

Benotti the politician.

 

[Benotti69]

This is hilarious. The ultimate politician speak. Talk about stuff other than the very direct questions being asked.

I am reminded of that infamous clip with Newsnight(British Political show) presenter Jeremy Paxman when he asked a politican a very simple question which the politician talked around but didn't answer, so Paxman kept asking and the politician kept dancing around the question about 10 times with Paxman getting more frustrated and demanding the question be answered but the politican continued to dance.

Benotti the politician.

I talked about Ryders blood levels. You went off topic. Now another off topic post. Obfuscate much?

 

[westerner]

I love the sport. I want to watch a fantastic sport and think how amazing it is what these guys do without the constant thought of 'what are they on?'.

And when guys like Ryder do nothing to dissipate these thoughts i'll keep calling them on it with my opinion that they are liars, cheats, frauds and dopers.

made me recall this

http://crankpunk.com/2013/07/24/doping-in-cycling-speak-now-or-forever-shut-the-fck-up/

"and now we are here, in an environment in which we can for the first time ever actually say ‘hey, show us how you do it. we dearly would love to believe again."

I see nothing incongruous with loving the sport and being hyper critical those who have lied and cheated in the sport or those who give us even a small reason to question.

I subscribe to the view that critical thought and healthy debate from the fans and media are as important for those who wish for transparent drug free sport as tools like drug testing, and the bio passport are.

There is a lesson for the future to be learned from each athlete/each case and 'we' don't get there if 'we' don't discuss with eyes wide open.

 

[pmcg76]

I talked about Ryders blood levels. You went off topic. Now another off topic post. Obfuscate much?

No you talked about how Ryder riding faster on Alpe di Pampeago in 2012 than Ricco, Mechov and the others in 2008 was proof that he was doping. That is what kicked this thread back to life.

I challenged the idea of comparing different years to prove anything including giving examples to show how it is pointless. One was how a rider from the pre EPO era(Herrera) rode faster up Alpe d'Uez than so-called uber blood doper Contador.

I asked how this was even possible but so far have not received a response as the question has been avoided.

 

[Benotti69]

No you talked about how Ryder riding faster on Alpe di Pampeago in 2012 than Ricco, Mechov and the others in 2008 was proof that he was doping. That is what kicked this thread back to life.

I challenged the idea of comparing different years to prove anything including giving examples to show how it is pointless. One was how a rider from the pre EPO era(Herrera) rode faster up Alpe d'Uez than so-called uber blood doper Contador.

I asked how this was even possible but so far have not received a response as the question has been avoided.

Herrera's time is not in the top 100 fastest times up L'Alpe D'Huez.

So you want to tell me how Herrera's time is relevant? Axel Merckx FFS climbed L'Alpe faster than Lucho.

As for Hesjedal's time being faster than known dopers. It is relevant, how can he climb faster than CERA users? I would not expect him to get close to guys on CERA, but he beat their time. Did the CERA users climb it in the snow á la Hampsten?

 

[pmcg76]

Herrera's time is not in the top 100 fastest times up L'Alpe D'Huez.

So you want to tell me how Herrera's time is relevant? Axel Merckx FFS climbed L'Alpe faster than Lucho.

As for Hesjedal's time being faster than known dopers. It is relevant, how can he climb faster than CERA users? I would not expect him to get close to guys on CERA, but he beat their time. Did the CERA users climb it in the snow á la Hampsten?

Again you are avoiding the question. How is it that a guy from 1987 can climb faster on Alpe d'Huez than a rider widely believed to be blood doped. After all modern bikes, training methods and doping should give the current rider all the advantages.

Whether Herrera's climb is in the top 100 is irrelevant.

Let me try a different angle, there is a 3.30 swing between Armstrongs fastest(road stage) and slowest times on Alpe d'Huez, why?

 

[Benotti69]

Again you are avoiding the question. How is it that a guy from 1987 can climb faster on Alpe d'Huez than a rider widely believed to be blood doped. After all modern bikes, training methods and doping should give the current rider all the advantages.

Whether Herrera's climb is in the top 100 is irrelevant.

Let me try a different angle, there is a 3.30 swing between Armstrongs fastest(road stage) and slowest times on Alpe d'Huez, why?

Let's keep this on topic.

How do you think Hesjedal can climb a mountain in 2012 faster than the EPO-CERA riders of 2008?

 

[pastronef]

I love the sport. I want to watch a fantastic sport and think how amazing it is what these guys do without the constant thought of 'what are they on?'.

And when guys like Ryder do nothing to dissipate these thoughts i'll keep calling them on it with my opinion that they are liars, cheats, frauds and dopers.

none of the last few years GT podium contenders did anything to dissipate these thoughts.

So, when I watch them, I do not think "what are they on" since they are all ON something, racing against each other.

but if we think about the clean athletes they beat before going pro and leaving the others way behind, yes, I can agree with you about them being cheaters.

but NOW it's too late: when I see Alberto Quintana Nibali Froome Valverde Aru and co battling on a mountain, I don't even bother about thinking what are they on. I just follow the race

 

[Benotti69]

none of the last few years GT podium contenders did anything to dissipate these thoughts.

So, when I watch them, I do not think "what are they on" since they are all ON something, racing against each other.

but if we think about the clean athletes they beat before going pro and leaving the others way behind, yes, I can agree with you about them being cheaters.

but NOW it's too late: when I see Alberto Quintana Nibali Froome Valverde Aru and co battling on a mountain, I don't even bother about thinking what are they on. I just follow the race

I do agree. When I say 'what are they on', it is rather what kind of substance are they on as to whether they are on panyagua or chemicals.

I do follow the race and not cheer for anyone rider, but it does occur to me the doping.....

 

[pastronef]

I do agree. When I say 'what are they on', it is rather what kind of substance are they on as to whether they are on panyagua or chemicals.

I do follow the race and not cheer for anyone rider, but it does occur to me the doping.....

I do cheer, and since we are in the Ryder thread, the Vuelta stage win after chasing Zaugg was awesome, my hearthrate went through the roof

 

[Master50]

Let's keep this on topic.

How do you think Hesjedal can climb a mountain in 2012 faster than the EPO-CERA riders of 2008?

Because the race situation demanded it in 2012 and didn't on 2008. hey if the race was only against this time I expect it would even be faster as an event. Comparing performances of parts of races in different years with different race situations is such a waste of time. This has been addressed in so many of these nonsensical threads. I suppose you also have the weather reports, the relative humidity, temperature, pace prior to the climb, analysis of the stage that day in 2008 against the whole event. the state of mind of the riders, and all the other things that make it different from 1 day to the next, never mind an entirely different event. I see your posts all over the clinic so I wonder are you reading these things and ignoring them or just like to inflame discussions for your entertainment?
As for a clean rider beating a doped one? really? I promise you that with a HC of 60 I won't be keeping up to any of those guys. while I don't really know what kind of rider you are I'd bet this is true for you too.
I am sure you know this but if memory serves this performance was credible in a power to weight calculation? wasn't there some high 5.9 watts / Kg or did he actually get a number over 6? That might indicate this climb will yet be done faster by someone.

 

[Benotti69]

It has been a long time since i watched a GT where things was not racing from day 1 till the finale. Most days of GTs the 1st hour is really fast with guys trying to make the BoTD, then it gets to a level to keep the break in chasing distance then it starts winding up for the final chase and sprint. The use of finishing bottles is an example of how hard the racing is. To say you cant compare because they didn't race this stage whereas that one they did is not on. For a clean Hesjedal to get near EPO CERA GIRO times the 2008 is laughable.

The pre epo days were they only started racing when the tv cameras got switched on are long gone.

As for Hesjedal's blood values, i say again, the argument that machine calibration error was to blame just does not cut the mustard with me.

 

[Master50]

It has been a long time since i watched a GT where things was not racing from day 1 till the finale. Most days of GTs the 1st hour is really fast with guys trying to make the BoTD, then it gets to a level to keep the break in chasing distance then it starts winding up for the final chase and sprint. The use of finishing bottles is an example of how hard the racing is. To say you cant compare because they didn't race this stage whereas that one they did is not on. For a clean Hesjedal to get near EPO CERA GIRO times the 2008 is laughable.

The pre epo days were they only started racing when the tv cameras got switched on are long gone.

As for Hesjedal's blood values, i say again, the argument that machine calibration error was to blame just does not cut the mustard with me.

I remember that Ryder was under a lot of pressure and the lead was never a big one. In the pink and out. He was in the thick of it and the pace was high amongst the leaders. Sorry but I don't remember the race situation in 2008 but it was different and different pressures. Sure a lot of stages there are breakaways and yes I agree the racing starts in earnest much earlier in a stage but are you comparing the leaders at each other throat or a breakaway that was losing its energy being paced down by the leaders? Again you are applying a simple truth that you say the racing is all out from the word go. It isn't the leaders are often sitting in the pack and conserving energy. In 2008 the situation was different and perhaps these top climbers were not pushing each other. According to your analysis the GC leaders are at the front from the first to the last day going as hard and fast as possible. My experience is the GC leaders do not waste any energy until it is tactically required. Ryder was under constant pressure in that Giro once he was showing he was a contender. I am sure that had the situation been better for Ryder this climb would have been at lower pace. Sorry but again just too simple an argument that carries no proof.
As for blood profiles? I don't know much about the subject and I am guessing you don't either. From the posts in this thread it is hardly proof except of course to the clinic.

 

[pmcg76]

Let's keep this on topic.

How do you think Hesjedal can climb a mountain in 2012 faster than the EPO-CERA riders of 2008?

What a shock, dodged the question again. Worse than a slippery politician, yet you claim JV is the snakeoil salesman.

Why were they faster in 2012? any number of reasons as has been pointed out a million times. Race conditions, race tactics, weather conditions, race route, there are so many factors that can affect times year to year.

In 2008, Alpe di Pampeago was the first mountains stage(st 14) which are not always raced to the max. The following day was the 5 Col Classic, Pordoi, San Pellegrino, Giau, Falzarego and finishing on the Marmolada, an epic stage and the toughest of that Giro. At a guess I would say they were keeping their powder mostly dry for that particular stage, especially when the following day was the Plan des Cornes Mountain TT.

In comparison 2012 came on the 3rd last day when the overall victory was still up for grabs so nobody would have been holding back, all trying to gain time before the TT on the last day.

See, differing race circumstances at the minimun.

Why don't you tell us the reason why Armstrong went 3.30 slower on Alpe d'Huez in 03 than 01. Why Beloki went 1.25 slower and why Ullrich went 2.55 slower. I mean you claim they are all racing full out so why the differences from 01 to 03.

Also it should be noted that as usual you left out the fact that out of the 5 ascents of Alpe di Pampeago, 2008 is the slowest. 2012 second slowest with 98-99-03 all being quicker. Yet you claimed CERA was more effective than EPO so how does that work exactly as the CERA guys have the slowest ascent?

Don't worry, I don't expects answers. Just more avoidance and the usual waffling.

 

[Netserk]

Why didn't you mention the next stage in 2012? The one that was harder than the one after Pampeago in 2008?

Epic stage so hard that they won't go full gas on the stage before:

Stage so easy it's not worth mentioning:

Note the different lengths of the stages...

 

[pmcg76]

Why didn't you mention the next stage in 2012? The one that was harder than the one after Pampeago in 2008?

Epic stage so hard that they won't go full gas on the stage before:

Stage so easy it's not worth mentioning:

Note the different lengths of the stages...

Well I would still argue that the 2008 was way harder even if it were shorter.

Pordoi, San Pellegrino, Giau, Marmolada v Mortirolo, Stelvio. I would bet in 2012 the race didn't heat up until the Mortirolo.

Also as mentioned, the race was on the line in the last 2 mountain stages in 2012 whilst the Alpe di Pampeago was the first mountain stage so differing race circumstances.

 

[Netserk]

Ah, because it's 66km shorter, it is actually harder even though it has more than 1000 less vertical meters

BTW are you arguing that times should be faster in the third week of a GT compared to the 2nd week?

 

[pmcg76]

Ah, because it's 66km shorter, it is actually harder even though it has more than 1000 less vertical meters

BTW are you arguing that times should be faster in the third week of a GT compared to the 2nd week?

Well if that 66km is flat or mostly flat and there is a huge distance between the first climb and the next one, Tonale-Mortirolo its neglible because it means they can cruise until the Mortirolo, therefore arriving relatively fresh.

A bit different if you are hitting a major Col every 30km, the cumulative wearing down effect will have more of an impact. None of the climbs might be as hard as the Mortirolo but the fatigue factor will play a bigger part.

No I am not arguing times should be faster in the 3rd week, the simple argument is that race conditions, tactics are different so therefore if riders are still battling for the win in the 3rd week, they are more likely to be going full-on than if things are mostly already decided. There are so many varying factors that it is pointless to even compare.

I posted about times on Alpe d'Huez 2003 V 2001. Why the time differences? Why a 3.30 time difference for Lance?

 

[roundabout]

His brake was rubbing?

Kinda obvious that his prep was wrong that day.