Ryders crash -motor?

[Freddythefrog]

I would agree with that. I'm just confused as to why Freddy feels that the moto driver and Hesjedal "don't see that bike turning on its own.".....
........Maybe Freddythefrog could clarify exactly what he meant. I think there's just a simple misunderstanding of each other going on here.

The motor cyclist takes a line to avoid Ryder and the bike. He doesn't want to run over the wheel of the bike. He does run it over because the bike does something he doesn't imagine it can do in those circumstances - it rotates on the ground after Ryder and the bike have come to a halt.

Ryder reaches for the bike to pick it up. He reaches to where he can grab the saddle, only the saddle moves away from his hand even as he extends his arm within the limit of the arc of his reach, to get hold of it. He then has to adjust his position using has feet and legs, until he can make another attempt to reach for it. He wouldn't have reached for it the first time if he was expecting it to move. It did move and he did not expect it.

It is evidence. I had a totally boring day today. Some co-workers who report to me tried to make life difficult for others with petty gripes and failures to totally fulfill their team responsibilities. Some of my co-workers were helpful and a couple were as difficult as they always are. My boss spoke to me but was going through the motions. He wanted to know what trivia he could help me with and kept well away from any substantive issues. I rode to work and rode back. My bike did absolutely everything I expected it to do. The gears and brakes are fine. I switched on the computer and went around my favourite websites to see if anything odd had happened. Absolutely every single thing today happened like I expected it to happen.

I squeezed the toothpaste tube and toothpaste came out. I didn't reach for the teapot and see it roll away from my hand, so I had to step after it to get it.

 

[sniper]

I would agree with that. I'm just confused as to why Freddy feels that the moto driver and Hesjedal "don't see that bike turning on its own."

As in "they didn't anticipate it"? (which I would agree with)

Or "they didn't witness it." The implication being (I thought) that had the moto driver witnessed it (or at least noticed what was happening), he may have made a statement afterwards or some such thing (even though in real time, this whole thing would've transpired rather quickly).

Maybe Freddythefrog could clarify exactly what he meant. I think there's just a simple misunderstanding of each other going on here.

i interpreted freddythefrog's comment as "they didn't anticipate it".
they didn't see 'it' coming.

those who play tennis know that as soon as the opponent hits a ball you're able to intuitively anticipate the effect the ball is going to have once it bounces on your half of the court.
that intuition is based on parameters such as how the opponent holds his racket, the sound of the strike, etc.
here we have a bit of footage with a couple of parameters (the way Ryder falls, the way his bike/wheels bounce on the asphalt), and nobody who sees the footage would anticipate this particular movement of the bike.


edit:

...
It is evidence. I had a totally boring day today. Some co-workers who report to me tried to make life difficult for others with petty gripes and failures to totally fulfill their team responsibilities. Some of my co-workers were helpful and a couple were as difficult as they always are. My boss spoke to me but was going through the motions. He wanted to know what trivia he could help me with and kept well away from any substantive issues. I rode to work and rode back. My bike did absolutely everything I expected it to do. The gears and brakes are fine. I switched on the computer and went around my favourite websites to see if anything odd had happened. Absolutely every single thing today happened like I expected it to happen.

I squeezed the toothpaste tube and toothpaste came out. I didn't reach for the teapot and see it roll away from my hand, so I had to step after it to get it.

nice

 

[sniper]

...
It is evidence. I had a totally boring day today. Some co-workers who report to me tried to make life difficult for others with petty gripes and failures to totally fulfill their team responsibilities. Some of my co-workers were helpful and a couple were as difficult as they always are. My boss spoke to me but was going through the motions. He wanted to know what trivia he could help me with and kept well away from any substantive issues. I rode to work and rode back. My bike did absolutely everything I expected it to do. The gears and brakes are fine. I switched on the computer and went around my favourite websites to see if anything odd had happened. Absolutely every single thing today happened like I expected it to happen.

I squeezed the toothpaste tube and toothpaste came out. I didn't reach for the teapot and see it roll away from my hand, so I had to step after it to get it.

hehehe
10 chars.

 

[Granville57]

It is evidence.

And I totally agree.
I initially thought you were suggesting that Ryder and the moto driver DIDN'T react to what had transpired.

Miscommunication, 'tis all.

I squeezed the toothpaste tube and toothpaste came out. I didn't reach for the teapot and see it roll away from my hand, so I had to step after it to get it.

i interpreted freddythefrog's comment as "they didn't anticipate it".
they didn't see 'it' coming.

Yes, indeed.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

...that bike is picking up speed when the car hits it, and that rear wheel would dead stop when it was lying on its side because it came into contact with the pavement.

I don't know what's happening, but what happens doesn't make sense in the physical world.

 

[IronCQ]

Everything that happens makes sense in the physical world, but this apart, I used the Galileian work method, repeat the experiment several times.
Put my bike on the ground as Ryder's.
It has to make contact either with the rear wheel or the cranck/pedal, otherwise no way she can spin.
Moved the cranck as pedalling...bike came in the opposite way as Ryder's.
I watched the crash again and to me it seems that the cranck doesn't spin at all...same position when Ryder leaves the pedal and when the motorbike crash over it.
So, can someone from Spain please get there with a bike and try to simulate the same way?

 

[Benotti69]

...that bike is picking up speed when the car hits it, and that rear wheel would dead stop when it was lying on its side because it came into contact with the pavement.

I don't know what's happening, but what happens doesn't make sense in the physical world.

twas a motorcycle that ran over Hesjedal's rear wheel counsellor.....let's keep it to facts.......

 

[Granville57]

...that bike is picking up speed when the motorcycle hits it

Just one fix there.
[Edit: Ninja'd by Benotti!]

The more I watch this (what, like anyone reading this thread has only watched the clip once or twice? ), the more I see that the acceleration of Ryder's bike as it spins as being an illusion created by the fact that moto camera is still in motion towards Ryder's bike. We don't have a fixed perspective for viewing.

Try this:
Watch the clip, and keep your eye on Ryder's front wheel as soon as he goes down. Stare at those spokes. The movement of the bike is still weird, but the sense of acceleration seems to fade somewhat.

It's easy to interpret the rotation of the bike as actually speeding up when it's on the ground, but it may just be that the camera is getting closer and closer with each passing moment.

 

[the delgados]

Just one fix there.
[Edit: Ninja'd by Benotti!]

The more I watch this (what, like anyone reading this thread has only watched the clip once or twice? ), the more I see that the acceleration of Ryder's bike as it spins as being an illusion created by the fact that moto camera is still in motion towards Ryder's bike. We don't have a fixed perspective for viewing.

Try this:
Watch the clip, and keep your eye on Ryder's front wheel as soon as he goes down. Stare at those spokes. The movement of the bike is still weird, but the sense of acceleration seems to fade somewhat.

It's easy to interpret the rotation of the bike as actually speeding up when it's on the ground, but it may just be that the camera is getting closer and closer with each passing moment.

I'm not the fleetest ship in Her Majesty's fleet, but I think Granville's on to something here. Hesjedal's bike does not contain a motor!
The clip is a slow motion replay of a three-second event. They were flying down a road, and it seems to me Ryder further propelled a moving rear wheel when clipping out and pushing a very light bike on a downhill road.

 

[Ryongsyong]

I cannot believe this thread is 23 pages. You need to spend less time on your PCs and more time out crashing bikes. Some of the stuff written in the couple of pages I skimmed is just preposterous. There is nothing there that is odd or unexpected and I fear some physics revision may be in order before your next exams.

Piece of advice— stick to libeling riders about things which can't be proven; it makes you look less stupid.

 

[D-Queued]

I cannot believe this thread is 23 pages. You need to spend less time on your PCs and more time out crashing bikes. Some of the stuff written in the couple of pages I skimmed is just preposterous. There is nothing there that is odd or unexpected and I fear some physics revision may be in order before your next exams.

Piece of advice— stick to libeling riders about things which can't be proven; it makes you look less stupid.

Agreed.

We need video from posters that have crashed their bikes multiple time attempting to re-enact this incident.

Let's get some statistics on this.

Dave.

 

[heart_attack_man]

As I've said multiple times, I don't really have an opinion on actually what happened.

I see two things:

1. It looks quite weird what happened.
2. Small electric motors for rear hubs exist.

Number 1 could potentially be argued as conjecture, however surely it can be agreed that it looked at least a little on the weird side.

Number 2 is fact.

With regards to 11kg being heavy, it's an alloy frame with a Shimano Sora groupie. Pretty sure with similar tech in a decent bike it would weigh a cr@p-load less. Also fairly certain if this is a commercialised engine, then with a big development budget (which some of the teams undoubtedly have), miniaturisation, weight reduction and peformance improvement would be an academic exercise (if not somewhat costly).

Once again, let me state very clearly - I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THIS IS WHAT IS NECESSARILY HAPPENING WITH RYDER HERE!

I also think that those that come here and ridicule probably need to pull their heads out of their collectives and realise that the appropriate tech that could cause such a thing to happen does exist.

Something I found odd in the footage - But when clipping out, you twist your foot and lift. At 10.5 secs he does exactly this, and you can see the resistance against the bike from his leg/foot (albeit minor). At this point, the rear wheel was also touching the ground, which would mean that the momentum of the bike would have been almost zero, and the wheel would have stopped (or almost stopped) spinning. For the bike to then gyrate like it did is, at a minimum, odd.

Definitely intriguing footage.

Feel free to flame away with the conspiracy theory, tin-foil-hat wearing accusations - just remember, post - not the person. As I've said multiple times, I don't know what's happened here.

 

[D-Queued]

...

I also think that those that come here and ridicule probably need to pull their heads out of their collectives and realise that the appropriate tech that could cause such a thing to happen does exist.

...

Feel free to flame away with the conspiracy theory, tin-foil-hat wearing accusations - just remember, post - not the person. As I've said multiple times, I don't know what's happened here.

Preface that I clipped the part where you note you do not think this has been created by electro-motive power...

Yes, electric motors exist. All kinds of them.

If we could (allegedly) put a man on the moon, then someone could probably rig something up on a bicycle...

However

I crashed on black ice a couple of years ago, going slowly, and was simply amazed at how fast my rear wheel was spinning and for how long it spun. It was still spinning after I collected myself off the ice (not easy) and gingerly made my way back to the bike (also not easy). It was necessary to carefully pick up the bike as the wheel was obviously poised to careen the bike in an undesired direction.

Beyond that experience, pretty sure that I have experienced similar 'bike spin' phenomena either personally or amongst fellow cyclists. And, I would be astounded if most here had not witnessed similar high speed rear wheel spins after crashes.

This video clip isn't a deep dark mystery. Rear wheels will spin after crashes. To re-create this, all that spinning wheel needs to do is graze the pavement on a well-balanced frame.

We don't need any coriolis effect, and certainly no advanced motors to explain this.

What is a deep dark mystery is how long this thread has gone, and will go. And, how it is fed by people exhorting how anything is possible. Anything, by its nature, is not probable.

I will admit, however, that I am thoroughly enjoying this.

Dave.

 

[willbick]

i would be interested to know what the minimum gradient would be to cause that type of motion to happen under gravity (assuming it could happen under gravity). one thing i am sure of is that it was NOT caused by a naturally spinning rear wheel

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I cannot believe this thread is 23 pages. You need to spend less time on your PCs and more time out crashing bikes. Some of the stuff written in the couple of pages I skimmed is just preposterous. There is nothing there that is odd or unexpected and I fear some physics revision may be in order before your next exams.

Piece of advice— stick to libeling riders about things which can't be proven; it makes you look less stupid.

Nothing here typed about riders is libel in my country.

Piece of advice--stick to whatever it is you do, and leave the law to someone intelligent. It won't make you look any less stupid, but it will give you more time to drool while looking at pretty pictures of rocks.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Someone who is good at the maths explain this to me: The rear tire clearly contacted the pavement for a couple of seconds. How does the friction created by that contact not stop the wheel, or at least slow it down to the speed of rotation of the bike? If it slowed down to the speed of rotation of the bike, how did the rear wheel create that much inertia?

Just a couple of thoughts. Admittedly, I'm bored and I like conspiracy theories...plus I'm still convinced Canc used a motor in PR and RVV...

 

[Granville57]

I cannot believe this thread is 23 pages.

Then you're missing the point.

Entirely.

Some of the stuff written in the couple of pages I skimmed is just preposterous.

Then you really should read the others.

 

[Granville57]

You need to spend less time on your PCs...

What is this, 1995?

 

[Granville57]

We need video from posters that have crashed their bikes multiple time attempting to re-enact this incident.

Let's get some statistics on this.

I crashed on black ice a couple of years ago, going slowly, and was simply amazed at how fast my rear wheel was spinning and for how long it spun

Dave, are you vortexing yourself?

 

[thehog]

Agreed.

We need video from posters that have crashed their bikes multiple time attempting to re-enact this incident.

Let's get some statistics on this.

Dave.

Two points I believe missed in the analysis thus far:

1. Ryder's foot is still locked in the pedal whilst on the ground. To unlock he has to pull his foot upwards toward his body. This would slow the bike and bring it forward to a stop, which it does. Once he unlocks his foot, the bike takes off in the the opposite direction of the action of pulling the foot upwards. As his leg is already twisted, he just needs to pull up to disengage rather then the normal twist right and up.

2. Assuming there was a motor with the fact he is freewheeling prior to falling it is possible the motor was engaged when the handlebars hit the road & not prior as generally what we've seen is the motor is started on or near the break-hoods.

My take is when he hit the ground, the motor was engaged, he then pulled his foot out upwards towards his body but the bike stronger force was the back wheel driving it around the arc created by the horizontal front wheel.

 

[Granville57]

Two points I believe missed in the analysis thus far:

Well well well...

NOW this thread is gonna gain some serious momentum.

Good post, hog. Even though (and I'm totally serious) I haven't even read it yet.


However, for everyone's viewing pleasure and delight, wouldn't it be nice to have another commentary playing while watching this clip...for the 1000th time?
I know I would.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk5e_XQnfp4

to the limit...of adhesion.

watch the bike wheel here as it spins into the path of the motorbike.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk5e_XQnfp4

The uploader has not made this video available in your country.

 

[thehog]

Well well well...

NOW this thread is gonna gain some serious momentum.

Good post, hog. Even though (and I'm totally serious) I haven't even read it yet.


However, for everyone's viewing pleasure and delight, wouldn't it be nice to have another commentary playing while watching this clip...for the 1000th time?
I know I would.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk5e_XQnfp4

I just wanted to add in some pictures!

The motorcycle is actually going to miss the bike. It's only because it's spinning does it come into its path.

Also, the comments section on the youtube video. It's catching on! Everyone knows! No way they can keep this cover up going.

 

[Granville57]

The uploader has not made this video available in your country.

Any luck directly from the Universal Sports site?
http://universalsports.com/video/2014-vuelta-a-espana-stage-7-motorcycle-runs-over-bike/

It's Schlanger and Gogulski doing the commentating.

Or maybe you need this.
https://hola.org

Usually works like a charm.

 

[benzwire]

If only there were a spectator filming it so we could get a 2nd viewing angle. Unfortunately I see no one on the grassy knoll...