Ryders crash -motor?

[heart_attack_man]

Jesus, dat site. "Lighter then most non electric bicycles"... "they wont even know your riding an e-bike"... "you can be the leader of the Peleton again".

Anyway, note they say their motor is so small "you cannot see it in this photo". That's a far cry from "invisible". Presumably, what a pro team could put together, while better than that bike, wouldn't be invisible either.

I don't necessarily completely disagree, hrotha.

Just that it's a far cry from most of the ridiculous looking "e-bikes" that you see getting around. It's also part of why I'm saying that I don't think Ryder had a motor, but I wouldn't be quite so quick to write off a well funded teams ability to take something like the Reef concept and make it into something workable (notwithstanding the logistics of doing something like that)...

 

[RedheadDane]

This is one of the weirder thread-topics I've seen in this sub-forum for some time.

Honestly; I don't see anything suspicious about that crash. As has already been mentioned several times, the bike briefly stopped when Ryder unclipped his foot.
On the other hand; if the bike had simply continued spinning while Ryder was still clipped in, now that would've been suspicious, but made for some rather hillarious footage.

 

[nomapnocompass]

Nothing suspicious about the Hesjedal crash except for the lack of intelligence and knowledge of some on this forum.

Another clip illustrating the principle of conservation of angular momentum in the rear wheel, this time during a TTT crash. The bike also suddenly flips direction at the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7TWDNhWDlY ( 0:42 seconds in )

 

[sniper]

I agree if the tech is there, someone will give it a try. But does the technology really exist to allow invisible assistance? You could hide the batteries and wires, but power assistance will require mods to the rear hub or crank -- in consumer models these are very conspicuous.

i think this has been covered. yes it's possible.

Jesus, dat site. "Lighter then most non electric bicycles"... "they wont even know your riding an e-bike"... "you can be the leader of the Peleton again".

Anyway, note they say their motor is so small "you cannot see it in this photo". That's a far cry from "invisible". Presumably, what a pro team could put together, while better than that bike, wouldn't be invisible either.

1. you know that how exactly? imo you're (blatantly) underestimating the options current-day technology offers as well as the budgets of procycling teams/riders.
2. would it really need to be 100% invisible? for all we know the UCI don't test bikes or only selectively. Was EPO detectable in the Lance era?

Nothing suspicious about the Hesjedal crash except for the lack of intelligence and knowledge of some on this forum.

Another clip illustrating the principle of conservation of angular momentum in the rear wheel, this time during a TTT crash. The bike also suddenly flips direction at the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7TWDNhWDlY ( 0:42 seconds in )

you spend an awful lot of tweets on debunking this brainless crackpot theory

edit: good objective posts @heart attack man.

 

[sniper]

bruyneel and fortunato baliani join the sceptics side too

and in non-ambiguous fashion

fortunato baliani @balianifortunat
questo video non mi piace....troppo sospetto!!!!!

 

[William H]

Sky's auto-parking system demonstrated by Wiggins last year was more impressive.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

You haven't watched the pro peloton much then.

You should watch it more. Always full of unreal performances.

Anyhow, this is what happens when two wheelers with real motors crash and spin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IzEdK7ARg8

FINALLY, as for this never happening in cycling????

Really???

Anyone remember this classic finish line stunt?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EaJMr26F5w

Except for the fact that the bike hits the barriers, it does pretty much exactly what Ryder's bike does.

Dave.

Sorry man, that's not even close to what Ryder's bike did. If that guy's bike had spun away from him when he reached for it, then it would be, but that dude just reached out and picked up his bike.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Have a look at the 3 similar crashes off the time trial ramp...at 2 minutes 35secs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMH3T0EvduU

beginning to doubt the motor theory now....

...uh, nope. None of those bikes do what Ryder's did.

 

[Cramps]

2. would it really need to be 100% invisible? for all we know the UCI don't test bikes or only selectively. Was EPO detectable in the Lance era?

Hmmm, I think it would have to be approaching 100% invisible and inaudible. Not because of UCI checks, but because of the peloton, I don't believe an EPO-like omerta would be given to motors

 

[hrotha]

Hmmm, I think it would have to be approaching 100% invisible and inaudible. Not because of UCI checks, but because of the peloton, I don't believe an EPO-like omerta would be given to motors

This. I believe doping is not seen even remotely in the same light as this kind of thing would be. It may be hypocritical, but it's how I think it works.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Okay, I reverse my decision based on the fact that most of the motors we've seen are in the seat tube, and that would preclude this incident since the cranks are not turning to propel the rear wheel, and the rear hub doesn't look nearly large enough to hold a motor.

 

[thehog]

but let's not use Ryder's race results of evidence of anything. if Hesjedal is using some kind of motorization technology, he'll hardly be the only one.
and yes, with JV reading in here on a daily basis, he'll no doubt have told Ryder to swap his 1.4 TSI for a non-motorized vehicle asap.

Time to go back and watch the 2012 Giro footage. There could be a motor right there.

 

[Cycle Chic]

and where has Dan Martin's form suddenly come from ??

 

[GoodTimes]

I am a mechanical engineer, and have shown / discussed this video with 3 different mechanical engineers. Each one has had the same intuitive response as me -- "The back wheel still moving when he unclips, this is a non-issue".

Surprised nobody has commented on the analysis I presented -- post # 266 where I showed that if the back wheel retained half of it's angular velocity at the moment that Ryder unclipped, then this is sufficient to cause the bike to behave as noted.

 

[barn yard]

cervelo have invented a perpetual motion machine. the future of energy production is upon us!

 

[sniper]

Hmmm, I think it would have to be approaching 100% invisible and inaudible. Not because of UCI checks, but because of the peloton, I don't believe an EPO-like omerta would be given to motors

fair point i guess, but then again, the motor would merely have to be invisible to the naked eye and inaudible to the naked ear.
is that kind of technology really beyond the realm of imagination? hardly.

I am a mechanical engineer, and have shown / discussed this video with 3 different mechanical engineers. Each one has had the same intuitive response as me -- "The back wheel still moving when he unclips, this is a non-issue".

Surprised nobody has commented on the analysis I presented -- post # 266 where I showed that if the back wheel retained half of it's angular velocity at the moment that Ryder unclipped, then this is sufficient to cause the bike to behave as noted.

what percentage do you estimate the chance that it retained sufficient velocity?
more than 50%?

 

[GoodTimes]

what percentage do you estimate the change that it retained sufficient velocity?
more than 50%?

Fraid I don't understand the question

 

[sniper]

Fraid I don't understand the question

sorry i meant "chance" not "change".
you say it's possible (i.e. there's a chance) the wheel had retained sufficient energy to make the bike spin like that. I'm asking what percentage of chance you're talking about.
from what i see in the footage there's at least a 50% chance that the wheel did not retain enough energy.

 

[GoodTimes]

By the way, I will add-- I think it is technically feasible for a motor to be added to a road bike in a manner that would give advantage to the rider (or Ryder...).

It would be tough to do so in a way that you could get away with it in the event of a UCI bike inspection, but I do not know how thorough such an inspection is. I would not be surprised if it is possible to get away with it.

I am imagining a wheel motor. The stator is built into the bike rim. permanent rare-earth magnets embedded under the carbon fiber braking surface. Then, the rotor is built into the brake calipers. The wheel motor would operate off of a modified Linear Induction Motor (LIM) concept.

I did a quick search to see if this technology exists. Well, it looks like the concept is on the verge of being commercialized in automobiles:

http://www.electric-vehiclenews.com/2010/06/work-continues-on-wheel-motor-ev.html

The above motor provides 80 kW, and the system weighs an (estimated on my part) 70 kg. Divide everything by 1000, and you could have a system able to provide 80W, at a mass of 70g. 80W is enough to turn a donkey into a racehorse!

 

[GoodTimes]

sorry i meant "chance" not "change".
you say it's possible (i.e. there's a chance) the wheel had retained sufficient energy to make the bike spin like that. I'm asking what percentage of chance you're talking about.
from what i see in the footage there's at least a 50% chance that the wheel did not retain enough energy.

I think the chances that it retained a significant amount of energy are greater than the chances that he has a motor in his bike, if that answers your question

 

[sniper]

I think the chances that it retained a significant amount of energy are greater than the chances that he has a motor in his bike, if that answers your question

it does, thanks

edit: interesting post on LIM technology!
as i said earlier

i could imagine all kinds of dynamo-like technology that doesn't involve a switch.

 

[sniper]

Eurosport now reporting on it

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news...g-row-erupts-vuelta-crash-112916345--spt.html

French sports newspaper L'Equipe ran a piece openly questioning how the rear wheel of Hesjedal's bike could still seem to be moving round strongly after the rider fell off - so much so that the bike even appeared to be riding itself uphill, against the gradient.

The video footage, while curious, is far from definitive, however, though it is widely believed that such skulduggery does exist in the cycling world - particularly since motorised systems are readily available for normal road bikes.

edit: two appropriate comments in the comment section.

Watched the video, and normal bikes do not behave like that.
Why the motor would be running on a downhill is questionable, but maybe that contributed to his crash.

The "UCI regularly" testing... and "nothing has ever been found" are not exactly phrases that we haven't heard before

 

[Volderke]

Is this topic serious or did I miss the candid camera?

 

[GoodTimes]

Is this topic serious or did I miss the candid camera?

If you have to ask, you shouldn't be here

 

[Parker]

Divide everything by 1000, and you could have a system able to provide 80W, at a mass of 70g. 80W is enough to turn a donkey into a racehorse!

Scaling doesn't work like that though does it? Distances, areas, masses etc. Some scale linearly, some as a square, some as a cube.

The thing is all of these motors are pretty easy to spot. It doesn't take much ivestigation. And if someone is found with it then it's a life ban for them. The team will lose its licence (no chance of a lone rogue rider defence) and the manufacturer would probably be banned too with subsequent consequences.
A suitable risk to get in a breakway in the Vuelta? For all the money spent on the motor development why not hire better riders instead.

Some said if people blood dope, why not this? Well if you could 100% tell a doper just by looking at him (to a court admissable standard), riders wouldn't do it any more. And motors don't have halflives and 'glowtimes' either

So then you have to rely on some sort of UCI conspiracy.


Alternatively people can just realise that a machine with several moving parts and significant kinetic energy, will often move in unpredictable ways when randomly thrown to the floor. And slow motion in isolation makes lots of things seem odd as it robs us of our natural frame of reference.