Sagan Clean?

[Benotti69]

5:55. Third fastest climbing time on Poggio today, we're back to pre-EPO test speeds.

Unbelievable.

 

[red_flanders]

Re:

5:55. Third fastest climbing time on Poggio today, we're back to pre-EPO test speeds.

Unbelievable.

Where are you getting speeds on the Poggio? Would be interesting to see that charted over time. I mean there have to be better hills to chart, but it does have the unique factor of being after 290 km or whatever it is of racing.

 

[snccdcno]

From jens' site

http://www.climbing-records.com/2017/03/rockets-over-poggio.html

 

[GuyIncognito]

Very very slow race until the Poggio
Tailwind on most of the climb
New tarmac on the climb

As climbing times go, this one is meaningless

 

[Dan2016]

Re:

Very very slow race until the Poggio
Tailwind on most of the climb
New tarmac on the climb

As climbing times go, this one is meaningless

That's like Beat poetry. Nice one.

 

[red_flanders]

Re:

From jens' site

http://www.climbing-records.com/2017/03/rockets-over-poggio.html

Thanks! Interesting. Definitely up there. Not what sure one can surmise from such a climb.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Q: why is Sagan so often 2nd, if he's performance is enhanced?
Why not just win?

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

Very very slow race until the Poggio
Tailwind on most of the climb
New tarmac on the climb

As climbing times go, this one is meaningless

No. Fast time = 100% dope/motordope

Clinic logic.

 

[kingjr]

Re: Re:

Very very slow race until the Poggio
Tailwind on most of the climb
New tarmac on the climb

As climbing times go, this one is meaningless

No. Fast time = 100% dope/motordope

Yeah, just look at Sagan's seated acceleration. Not normal.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Very very slow race until the Poggio
Tailwind on most of the climb
New tarmac on the climb

As climbing times go, this one is meaningless

No. Fast time = 100% dope/motordope

Clinic logic.

The clinic is so so wrong. :lol:

I mean we just have to turn back the pages of history to see all the clean riders down the ages, the clean culture of bread and water, the attitude of fairness and never cheating, never hold onto cars or motorbikes, never get on trains(real early days for newbies ) never using motors in bikes.

Crazy clinic to think riders dope!

I mean the teams are not run by people who made a living doping now are they? All those doctors are to make sure there is nothing in the butter that goes on the bread and the water is clean! Then the soigneurs would be watching out for people trying to sell riders PEDs and chase them away with wet towels...... :lol:

Oh Valv Piti you are a joy, pure joy.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Q: why is Sagan so often 2nd, if he's performance is enhanced?
Why not just win?

See Sean Kelly.

Riders do as little as possible when in a break with Sagan. So Sagan ends up always doing more.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re: Re:

Very very slow race until the Poggio
Tailwind on most of the climb
New tarmac on the climb

As climbing times go, this one is meaningless

No. Fast time = 100% dope/motordope

Clinic logic.

The clinic is so so wrong. :lol:

I mean we just have to turn back the pages of history to see all the clean riders down the ages, the clean culture of bread and water, the attitude of fairness and never cheating, never hold onto cars or motorbikes, never get on trains(real early days for newbies ) never using motors in bikes.

Crazy clinic to think riders dope!

I mean the teams are not run by people who made a living doping now are they? All those doctors are to make sure there is nothing in the butter that goes on the bread and the water is clean! Then the soigneurs would be watching out for people trying to sell riders PEDs and chase them away with wet towels...... :lol:

Oh Valv Piti you are a joy, pure joy.

Valv.Piti's point is that your arguments usually come down to:

"Kim Jong-Un likes sugar. Hitler also liked sugar, therefore Kim Jong-Un is a bad man".

Most people agree with your conclusions but think the way you get to them is silly

Q: why is Sagan so often 2nd, if he's performance is enhanced?
Why not just win?

See Sean Kelly.

Riders do as little as possible when in a break with Sagan. So Sagan ends up always doing more.

That's part of it, but more often Kelly would get second a lot because when someone got away for the win and the pack realized he was gone, they stopped racing hard, they would finish together and Kelly would win the sprint for 2nd. This doesn't happen as much now because ranking points for placings are more important to riders so now they keep trying to get away for 2nd, 3rd, etc.

 

[SKSemtex]

If Sagan is doping he must be very very smart in it. This is his 4. team. It is simply hard to believe that some of the former team members (cyclist, doctors, masseurs etc.) who had some kind of information would not have sold it to media or any other bidder. It must be a lot of people for whom Sagan is not exactly their friend. A lot of them are out of a job or business now and they are not under any "omerta" anymore.
I am sure this information would be worth a lot.
I am not saying he is clean. For me, it is always 50/50 for any top rider. But I just cannot imagine how sophisticated this doping must be to keep all possible information secret for so much time.

 

[Netserk]

Why would any teammates know what he does?

 

[SKSemtex]

Re:

Why would any teammates know what he does?

I have no idea how this "business" works nowadays. I was reading quite a lot here on this forum, on the books and for me, it is almost impossible to do it the way the certain shipment is untrackable to the certain rider. It is not like to buy the bear in the shop and even if he does it via Hlad or his brother it must be very hard to keep it secret as everybody in business know them as well.
But this is the same for any rider accused here on this section. Even Froome. The level of conspiracy is out of my imagination at this moment.

 

[veganrob]

Since when has omertà disappeared? Since when is cycling clean?

 

[SKSemtex]

Re:

Since when has omertà disappeared? Since when is cycling clean?

I am not telling the cycling is clean. I am no that naive. But I am sure it is not that easy to keep this staff secret especially if there must be a lot of people willing to pay an incredible amount for this info.

 

[DFA123]

Even if we work on the (imo, unlikely) assumption that doping is no longer prevalent throughout the peloton; in theory all it takes is one qualified doctor. One doctor to arrange the program and supply the meds - especially if the doping is mostly done in training camps or away from races. Presumably such a doctor would be very well paid, so what motivtion would there be for them to talk? Also add in the fact that it would break medical confidentiality/ethics and probably lead to them being struck off and disgraced.

In theory could easily have a program separated from his teams, with very few people knowing about it, or maybe one running in parallel to whatever the teams provide.

 

[red_flanders]

If Sagan is doping he must be very very smart in it. This is his 4. team. It is simply hard to believe that some of the former team members (cyclist, doctors, masseurs etc.) who had some kind of information would not have sold it to media or any other bidder. It must be a lot of people for whom Sagan is not exactly their friend. A lot of them are out of a job or business now and they are not under any "omerta" anymore.
I am sure this information would be worth a lot.
I am not saying he is clean. For me, it is always 50/50 for any top rider. But I just cannot imagine how sophisticated this doping must be to keep all possible information secret for so much time.

This is the scenario for every rider who dopes. Yet incredibly few are given up by a teammate or support personnel. Therefore, if most riders who dope are not ratted out, then not being ratted out is not evidence of being clean.

 

[SKSemtex]

Re:

Even if we work on the (imo, unlikely) assumption that doping is no longer prevalent throughout the peloton; in theory all it takes is one qualified doctor. One doctor to arrange the program and supply the meds - especially if the doping is mostly done in training camps or away from races. Presumably such a doctor would be very well paid, so what motivtion would there be for them to talk? Also add in the fact that it would break medical confidentiality/ethics and probably lead to them being struck off and disgraced.

In theory could easily have a program separated from his teams, with very few people knowing about it, or maybe one running in parallel to whatever the teams provide.

This should be one hell of well-paid doctor, his wife his nurse, currier, team doctor, DS, everybody who see the training data, blood data.
Especially in the case of Froome, Contador, Quintana, Nibali, Sagan GVA any piece of suspicious evidence must have very high market value.
But of course, I can be very mistaken and naive.
I do hope that Armstrong will lose all his money as I do not mind Sagan will lose his one if he is fraud.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Even if we work on the (imo, unlikely) assumption that doping is no longer prevalent throughout the peloton; in theory all it takes is one qualified doctor. One doctor to arrange the program and supply the meds - especially if the doping is mostly done in training camps or away from races. Presumably such a doctor would be very well paid, so what motivtion would there be for them to talk? Also add in the fact that it would break medical confidentiality/ethics and probably lead to them being struck off and disgraced.

In theory could easily have a program separated from his teams, with very few people knowing about it, or maybe one running in parallel to whatever the teams provide.

This should be one hell of well-paid doctor, his wife his nurse, currier, team doctor, DS, everybody who see the training data, blood data.
Especially in the case of Froome, Contador, Quintana, Nibali, Sagan GVA any piece of suspicious evidence must have very high market value.
But of course, I can be very mistaken and naive.
I do hope that Armstrong will lose all his money as I do not mind Sagan will lose his one if he is fraud.

We know for a fact there have been doctors on the payroll who did not rat out riders. In fact I can't think of one who ever did, but I just woke up. Anyway, since we know that most if not all doping doctors do not rat out their clients, we know the lack of a doctor coming forward is not evidence that a rider is clean.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Even if we work on the (imo, unlikely) assumption that doping is no longer prevalent throughout the peloton; in theory all it takes is one qualified doctor. One doctor to arrange the program and supply the meds - especially if the doping is mostly done in training camps or away from races. Presumably such a doctor would be very well paid, so what motivtion would there be for them to talk? Also add in the fact that it would break medical confidentiality/ethics and probably lead to them being struck off and disgraced.

In theory could easily have a program separated from his teams, with very few people knowing about it, or maybe one running in parallel to whatever the teams provide.

This should be one hell of well-paid doctor, his wife his nurse, currier, team doctor, DS, everybody who see the training data, blood data.
Especially in the case of Froome, Contador, Quintana, Nibali, Sagan GVA any piece of suspicious evidence must have very high market value.
But of course, I can be very mistaken and naive.
I do hope that Armstrong will lose all his money as I do not mind Sagan will lose his one if he is fraud.

This is a confusing post.

Even the people that eventually got caught doping, it was almost never because their doctor or wife or nurse spoke out.

You are acting like the last 30 years of cycling never happened.

It really has the taint of one of those desperate unthought through "my rider has to be clean because i love my rider and won't sleep if anyone says bad things about him", arguments we've seen frequently over the last 6 years.

 

[Echoes]

Re:

From jens' site
http://www.climbing-records.com/2017/03/rockets-over-poggio.html

There must be a mistake in there. In 1997 Peter Van Petegem topped the Poggio alone in the lead, not the Jalabert, Bartoli, Museeuw trio. If my memory does not let me down. I was an early teen back then but I remember the race quite well (unless they were not in the peloton at the start which I doubt).

 

[SKSemtex]

Re: Re:

Even if we work on the (imo, unlikely) assumption that doping is no longer prevalent throughout the peloton; in theory all it takes is one qualified doctor. One doctor to arrange the program and supply the meds - especially if the doping is mostly done in training camps or away from races. Presumably such a doctor would be very well paid, so what motivtion would there be for them to talk? Also add in the fact that it would break medical confidentiality/ethics and probably lead to them being struck off and disgraced.

In theory could easily have a program separated from his teams, with very few people knowing about it, or maybe one running in parallel to whatever the teams provide.

This should be one hell of well-paid doctor, his wife his nurse, currier, team doctor, DS, everybody who see the training data, blood data.
Especially in the case of Froome, Contador, Quintana, Nibali, Sagan GVA any piece of suspicious evidence must have very high market value.
But of course, I can be very mistaken and naive.
I do hope that Armstrong will lose all his money as I do not mind Sagan will lose his one if he is fraud.

This is a confusing post.

Even the people that eventually got caught doping, it was almost never because their doctor or wife or nurse spoke out.

You are acting like the last 30 years of cycling never happened.

It really has the taint of one of those desperate unthought through "my rider has to be clean because i love my rider and won't sleep if anyone says bad things about him", arguments we've seen frequently over the last 6 years.

I am not desperate and believe me I will be able to sleep very well even if he get caught dirty. I am not active in this section and I did not start my though as a reply to some wrong saying about him. It was just my general thought and I could easily state it on the Froome´s thread. I do think it must be kind of difficult to keep it secret these days especially for big fishes. I do not buy theory "too big to fall". But as I said I know nothing about this matter. And I am as usual naive and mistaken. But if everybody thinks all of them are dopers why to watch this sport anymore?
And I am not acting like the last 30 years of cycling never happened but the world has changed a lot last 10 years. And it is changing very fast every year.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

I am not desperate and believe me I will be able to sleep very well even if he get caught dirty. I am not active in this section and I did not start my though as a reply to some wrong saying about him. It was just my general thought and I could easily state it on the Froome´s thread. I do think it must be kind of difficult to keep it secret these days especially for big fishes. I do not buy theory "too big to fall". But as I said I know nothing about this matter. And I am as usual naive and mistaken. But if everybody thinks all of them are dopers why to watch this sport anymore?
And I am not acting like the last 30 years of cycling never happened but the world has changed a lot last 10 years. And it is changing very fast every year.

To the bolded, why? We know big fish in the last 10 years have been doping, and none of them have been revealed by other riders or co-workers. Why is it difficult to keep doping secret "these days"?

I'm not sure what sport I'd watch if my bar for watching it was "all or most must be clean". Football? Nope. Futbol? Nope. Cycling? Nope. Basketball? Maybe, never heard much about doping there. Track & Field? Hahahahahaha. Nope. Skiing? Doubt it, there seem to be some very obvious dopers there (Vaughn jumps to mind). Tennis? Hahahahahaha. Nope.

Cycling is a beautiful, brutal, difficult and deeply flawed sport. As a viewer it takes me down beautiful roads I can't get to everyday myself, and provides a massive spectacle which I love. I haven't felt like the sport was clean in my lifetime, and certainly not since the mid-late nineties. Not going to stop me from watching it. I don't need to believe a fantasy to enjoy the sport.

Clearly it would be better if doping were minimized, but the powers that be are demonstrably dis-interested in doing things which harm their ability to make a buck. As such, doping has been and will remain rampant.