Re: Re:
Here's two posts from Tienus on the topic:
viewtopic.php?p=1967713#p1967713
viewtopic.php?p=2027605#p2027605
Sagan is not explicitly mentioned, mind.Irondan said:
Here's two posts from Tienus on the topic:
viewtopic.php?p=1967713#p1967713
viewtopic.php?p=2027605#p2027605
Re: Re:
I'm a Sagan fan...so I'll qualify this question: Why is it Sagan always seems to be getting accused of using a motor lately? Is it because he's winning? If he wasn't winning so much, would there be any accusations? Is it only cyclists who win consistently that will be accused of using a motor? Martin just won the ITT in oppressive heat conditions, did he use a motor because he won? How about Spartacus at the Olympics? And so on and so forth...sniper said:
Re: Re:
I'm not so sure Sagan has "always" been thought of as someone who rides with a motor in his bike. I think the Stade 2 Documentary has something to do with current accusations (other posters please correct me if I'm wrong, or share what other knowledge of this documentary you may have).
Nomad said:
I'm not so sure Sagan has "always" been thought of as someone who rides with a motor in his bike. I think the Stade 2 Documentary has something to do with current accusations (other posters please correct me if I'm wrong, or share what other knowledge of this documentary you may have).
Re: Re:
The first ever clinic thread on motors is almost entirely dedicated to Cancellara.
Before the Stade 2 docu to my knowledge nobody talked about Sagan and motors.
In fact, prior to the Stade 2 docu, some would have argued Sagan was a victim (rather than a user) of motors, such as in the 2013 RvV:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuRvmWdSQ-s
(1 minute in, it's bye bye Sagan)
correct.Huapango said:
The first ever clinic thread on motors is almost entirely dedicated to Cancellara.
Before the Stade 2 docu to my knowledge nobody talked about Sagan and motors.
In fact, prior to the Stade 2 docu, some would have argued Sagan was a victim (rather than a user) of motors, such as in the 2013 RvV:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuRvmWdSQ-s
(1 minute in, it's bye bye Sagan)
Not a chance Sagan is clean, but at least we we're not subjected to the same level of bogus PR.
Re:
sniper said:Yea, and that's true.
But he's on the list of favourites to become exposed as a motor fraud.
While I have no problem with Sagan, it would crack me up if UCIs milkcow gets undressed as a cheat.[
You said:
"Take off the blinders, put on your glasses, and read again what I posted in the Sagan thread.
There's not gonna be much fruitful discussion if you keep putting words into my mouth whilst ignoring what was actually posted."
I've read a lot of what you have said sniper in the Sagan thread; you think he's doped...period. Also in this thread you attempt to correct my thinking to more closely coincide with yours:
"Having results like Sagan in a sport like cycling, whether you like it or not, is firm evidence of doping and is not weakened by the absence of other evidence."
Whether I like it...or not? Lol. Where's YOUR "firm evidence" of doping for Sagan? His winning results? That's all you have? Lol. But I'll tell you what, here's some FIRM evidence that he's NOT doping:
>No doping positive.
>No doping scandal.
>No suspicious TUE exposure.
>No suspicious transformation.
>No rapid, significant weight loss
>No sudden ability to climb with the best (dead give away, IMO, for 02-vector doping with a bigger, heavier rider).
Sagan is a big, muscular guy with a powerful engine (83 VO2max) that can produce big-time power...no surprises there. Big guys like him & Spartacus can do that. The only factor that precludes these guys from being GT contenders is their weight & bulk...nothing new there (the new trend appears to become anorexic as GT contenders are taking weight reduction to a ridiculous level). So, Sagan has the ability to accelerate rapidly and ride away from other riders...but, according to you, that must suggest doping (?). Forget that Sagan may be very talented; whether I "like it or not," he must/has to be doping.
You seem annoyed sniper at the possibility that a very talented rider like Sagan could be clean. IMO, I don’t think every rider in the peloton is doped. I'm suspicious of most GT contenders given the physical demands of a 3 week GT, though the ABP & improved controls have restricted doping, especially 02-vector doping, which is why I think we're seeing this ridiculous weight reduction & trendy anorexic look...GT contenders seem desperate to find any kind of performance gain. I feel, FWIW, there's much less doping and actually some clean riders, particulary within the non-GT contender spectrum of cycling. Of course, I've probably just wasted my time bloviating as you'll nonetheless slam me for having an opinion that doesn't coincide with yours (imagine that)
- Jul 15, 2013
- 896
- 0
- 4,580
Sagan is a great GT rider though. He may not be a great climber who can challenge for the overall classification, but he does extremely well in sprints and breakaway stages for three weeks long.
Re: Re:
Anyway, thanks for confirming that I never said the following, nor anything along those lines.
For the rest, you make some pretty fair points about (anti)doping, points which I am not in a position to contest.
In the end what it comes down to is the degree of skepticism each of us holds towards (the enforcement of) antidoping. We seem to have a different view on the risk-reward ratio of doping in procycling, where you seem to think the risk might outweigh the reward, whereas I would most definitely argue the reverse.
Edit: Good point from Gung Ho.
Yes, I think he's doped, but people are very welcome to disagree. There is no "period" there.Nomad said:
Anyway, thanks for confirming that I never said the following, nor anything along those lines.
Nomad said:
For the rest, you make some pretty fair points about (anti)doping, points which I am not in a position to contest.
In the end what it comes down to is the degree of skepticism each of us holds towards (the enforcement of) antidoping. We seem to have a different view on the risk-reward ratio of doping in procycling, where you seem to think the risk might outweigh the reward, whereas I would most definitely argue the reverse.
Edit: Good point from Gung Ho.
- Jul 6, 2014
- 1,645
- 318
- 11,180
Re: Re:
Good points.
Interesting to compare with someone like GVA, who this year has climbed significantly better than ever before - that's the kind of thing that perks suspicions. It's interesting that Sagan didn't even enter the Olympic road race, because he judged the parcours beyond his abilities. He's not riding the Ardennes.
Counterpoint: his Tour of California ascent to hold the yellow jersey. That stands as the most suss thing he's done on a bike. But it was also just one climb, not a whole day in the Alpes.
In my view, I hold room for climbers dominating climbs, tt's dominating tt's and classics specialists dominating cobbles. It's not to assert that a climber climbing well is clean, but merely that I don't perk up in that instance; it is not particularly suspicious.
Nomad said:sniper said:Yea, and that's true.
But he's on the list of favourites to become exposed as a motor fraud.
While I have no problem with Sagan, it would crack me up if UCIs milkcow gets undressed as a cheat.[
You said:
"Take off the blinders, put on your glasses, and read again what I posted in the Sagan thread.
There's not gonna be much fruitful discussion if you keep putting words into my mouth whilst ignoring what was actually posted."
I've read a lot of what you have said sniper in the Sagan thread; you think he's doped...period. Also in this thread you attempt to correct my thinking to more closely coincide with yours:
"Having results like Sagan in a sport like cycling, whether you like it or not, is firm evidence of doping and is not weakened by the absence of other evidence."
Whether I like it...or not? Lol. Where's YOUR "firm evidence" of doping for Sagan? His winning results? That's all you have? Lol. But I'll tell you what, here's some FIRM evidence that he's NOT doping:
>No doping positive.
>No doping scandal.
>No suspicious TUE exposure.
>No suspicious transformation.
>No rapid, significant weight loss
>No sudden ability to climb with the best (dead give away, IMO, for 02-vector doping with a bigger, heavier rider).
Sagan is a big, muscular guy with a powerful engine (83 VO2max) that can produce big-time power...no surprises there. Big guys like him & Spartacus can do that. The only factor that precludes these guys from being GT contenders is their weight & bulk...nothing new there (the new trend appears to become anorexic as GT contenders are taking weight reduction to a ridiculous level). So, Sagan has the ability to accelerate rapidly and ride away from other riders...but, according to you, that must suggest doping (?). Forget that Sagan may be very talented; whether I "like it or not," he must/has to be doping.
You seem annoyed sniper at the possibility that a very talented rider like Sagan could be clean. IMO, I don’t think every rider in the peloton is doped. I'm suspicious of most GT contenders given the physical demands of a 3 week GT, though the ABP & improved controls have restricted doping, especially 02-vector doping, which is why I think we're seeing this ridiculous weight reduction & trendy anorexic look...GT contenders seem desperate to find any kind of performance gain. I feel, FWIW, there's much less doping and actually some clean riders, particulary within the non-GT contender spectrum of cycling. Of course, I've probably just wasted my time bloviating as you'll nonetheless slam me for having an opinion that doesn't coincide with yours (imagine that)
Good points.
Interesting to compare with someone like GVA, who this year has climbed significantly better than ever before - that's the kind of thing that perks suspicions. It's interesting that Sagan didn't even enter the Olympic road race, because he judged the parcours beyond his abilities. He's not riding the Ardennes.
Counterpoint: his Tour of California ascent to hold the yellow jersey. That stands as the most suss thing he's done on a bike. But it was also just one climb, not a whole day in the Alpes.
In my view, I hold room for climbers dominating climbs, tt's dominating tt's and classics specialists dominating cobbles. It's not to assert that a climber climbing well is clean, but merely that I don't perk up in that instance; it is not particularly suspicious.
A bit more info about that:
http://dailysagan.tumblr.com/read
Sagan’s VO2max score is 83ml/kg/min! It is often quoted that a rider capable of winning the Tour de France requires the ability to deliver an average 6,7 watts per kilo on the final climb (say 30 minutes) of a key mountain stage. Sagan’s score hits 7 watt/kg, which makes 518 watts from this 74 kg rider!
- May 29, 2011
- 3,549
- 1,651
- 16,680
Hehee, wouldnt a rider dropping 7w/kg for 30 minute climbs in the tour be winning the race? Perhaps this is his max watts at peak vo2 in a lab.
Re: Re:
Nomad said:So far you've managed not to answer incovenient answers, Nomad. You've just choosen to ignore them for obviuos reason. That certainly doesn't make your opinion look more valid and certainly makes discussion with you...not fruitful
These arguments are no firm evidence that rider is not doping. Arguably it is none or very weak evidence.
While some transformation are suspicious, other are not.
Weight loss is not only effect of doping. Actually in 90's GC contenders could be more bulky because all that doping they had. Regeneration is much better with doping and using oxygen vectors doping enables to maintain bigger musculature while not losing performance uphill.
That would be valid argument if he actually tried. Since he almost never tries, we can't make any assumptions. Nevertheless he was able to rode over Verbier on groups of twelve, he was able to follow wheel of Kreuziger, Van Garderen, hold with Mollema, Martin, Pinot, Peraud or Špilak...so there you go.
Problem is we don't know whether he is very talented guy. It's popular statement here ins this forum. People like to base this statement on youth categories results - not only in Sagan's case. That is not right. One knows nothing how much the guys trained compared to others. And you don't know whether guys did not dope since 15 or 18 years of age, that would give them edge of course and they would have no "suspicious transformation" lately. And in youth categories there is much lesser concurency becuase there are riders of only few years age span. And guys can be at different stage of physical development; some are more mature, some less. Younger guy may be as mature or even more mature as older one so if they can beat older compatriots they look more talented but this advatage can disappear later. You could probably go on with arguments related to age, but IMHO this is sufficient explanation that you never know how rider is talented.
GC contenders are most visible cyclist out there and their efforts are most comparable ones. Hence why there is most people suspiciuos of them same as you are. To divert attention to them does not help much; there are hundreds of pages about them doping compared to Sagan. Anyway you've said you FEEL that within non-GT contenders there is less doping but one can't judge whether one is or isn't doping based on emotions.
Why is Sagan suspicious? He can: sprint with the best and climb with some of the climbers; and maintain huge aerobic performance (while sprinting with the fastest, again). No sprinter as fast as Sagan can do that; there is a physiological reason to it. Historically I can't think of any rider like that maybe except for Merckx but these days cycling is very different so it's hardly comparable and Merckx himself doped so that doesn't help much, too.
Add to that he can participate in breakaways (at Tour or almost any race he chooses) emultiple consecutive days and not only partcipate, but actually fight for the victory, too. Nobody else can do that. Other guys get tired over time.
Re:
Thank you. I've edited that - you are right, that messed quoting could lead to misunderstanding (at least to all who don't really read the posts before they answer).sniper said:
Re: Re:
Actually he finished Fleche 12th at first try and Amstel 3rd on second try, so there you go.The Hegelian said:
That was suspicious performance but competiton there actually was not that high and it's race almost nobody gives a *** about so I would assess his performance there very carefully.
Wow, just when you think the morons of the forum have hit a new low...here is another ultimate ditch dig to nowhere. How many times has he been tested? How many times has his bike been examined? Give me a break people. The F&*ing stupidity around this place is beyond absurd at times.
I know, here it comes, Marion Jones, Lance blah blah blah...this guy is insanely under the microscope, never had a missed whereabouts even, obviously knows how to use a mobile phone unlike Cav and other idiots who have had missed tests.
Stop the insanity....
I know, here it comes, Marion Jones, Lance blah blah blah...this guy is insanely under the microscope, never had a missed whereabouts even, obviously knows how to use a mobile phone unlike Cav and other idiots who have had missed tests.
Stop the insanity....
It is difficult to judge that TOC climb that day since he essentially time trialled it up at 101% effort, seen totally collapsing at the line and out of breath for such a long period that it was truly believable. Totally unlike the days when Levi smashed everyone and gave interviews minutes after crossing the line looking as fresh as the start.
Re:
Just nobody can't do anything on 101%. And with this fact begins and ends worth of such argumenting.orangerider said:
Re: Re:
Ardennes basically gave you an answer, but speaking about this... I am reluctant to buy this argument. Guy decides not to do road race because it is too hilly and chooses to compete with mountainbikers instead? MTB courses are not exactly known for not being hard. Plus required skills he clearly lacked. All at all that doesn't make much sence. More likely he realised his disadvantage in going solo against big multiple men teams in road race which I would understood.The Hegelian said:
Re:
https://youtu.be/3Y4CIOv44Zg
I had pointed this out on page 5 of this thread. He climbed Mt. Baldy full gas and left everything on the line. At the finish on the video he's completely wiped-out and looks like he's in respiratory distress. I agree...truly believable performance and shows the mental toughness of an athlete.orangerider said:
https://youtu.be/3Y4CIOv44Zg
Re: Re:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4033181/
What about 02-vector doping? Again, as I posted the link on the improved testing sensitivity of EPO microdosing, it's become more riskier, particulary in-competition. I suppose there's blood doping within the parameters of the ABP, but what evidence is there for that? Sagan isn't competing for GC, nor is he a key domestique for a top GC contender where a rider might find the benefits of blood doping outweighing the risks in order to push hard efforts on the long, sustained climbs of the high mountains for several days at a time. How about the metabolic modulators, i.e., Aicar or GW501516? IMO, no evidence of Aicar since he doesn't have the dramatic weight loss. And one 15 mg dose of GW501516 can be detected up to 60 days, plus it caused neoplastic changes in the clinicals with lab animals (bad idea...Lol). I suppose there's TUEs for the primary purpose of performance enhancement, but how would we know anything without disclosure? (No evidence without knowing...so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt).
I disagree that he can climb with some of the climbers. He hasn't shown any consistent climbing ability on the major mountains in any of Tours he's competed in. His best placing in GC was 42nd in 2012. His average finish in the 5 TdFs he's competed in is 65th. This past Tour he finished 95th, almost 3 1/2 hrs down from Froome...hardly the mark of a good climber. And he's not going to try and become a climber because he can't; he would need to drop 30+ lbs, or O2-vector dope well beyond the parameters of his ABP, which isn't going to happen. He's a Puncheur, classic specialist & Green jersey contender...and a talented one at that.
I agree with you that Sagan has maintained a "hugh aerobic performance," and I think the physiological reason for that is his high 83 VO2max. That's getting up there with the top endurance athletes in the world, and might explain his aerobic strength in the breakways, and some of the short, steep climbs that he attacks on. He's a heck of a talent, rides fast and has the power to pull away from his competition...is that always an indication of doping?
The original poster titled this thread: "Sagan clean?" I'm just giving my unadulterated opinion and what I see with Sagan. I'm probably wrong...as a lot of you on this forum have done impressive research and know a whole lot more about cycling & doping than I do (I'm in the "research & learning phase"...Lol). Nonetheless, I think it's an interesting discussion.
What specific PED(s) would Saga be supicious for? As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the steriodal module of the ABP was implemented in 2014, which makes androgen use much more riskier than previously (it's my understanding that's how Danielson was target tested...so it was effective in that case):Kokoso said:Nomad said:So far you've managed not to answer incovenient answers, Nomad. You've just choosen to ignore them for obviuos reason. That certainly doesn't make your opinion look more valid and certainly makes discussion with you...not fruitful
These arguments are no firm evidence that rider is not doping. Arguably it is none or very weak evidence.
While some transformation are suspicious, other are not.
Weight loss is not only effect of doping. Actually in 90's GC contenders could be more bulky because all that doping they had. Regeneration is much better with doping and using oxygen vectors doping enables to maintain bigger musculature while not losing performance uphill.
That would be valid argument if he actually tried. Since he almost never tries, we can't make any assumptions. Nevertheless he was able to rode over Verbier on groups of twelve, he was able to follow wheel of Kreuziger, Van Garderen, hold with Mollema, Martin, Pinot, Peraud or Špilak...so there you go.
Problem is we don't know whether he is very talented guy. It's popular statement here ins this forum. People like to base this statement on youth categories results - not only in Sagan's case. That is not right. One knows nothing how much the guys trained compared to others. And you don't know whether guys did not dope since 15 or 18 years of age, that would give them edge of course and they would have no "suspicious transformation" lately. And in youth categories there is much lesser concurency becuase there are riders of only few years age span. And guys can be at different stage of physical development; some are more mature, some less. Younger guy may be as mature or even more mature as older one so if they can beat older compatriots they look more talented but this advatage can disappear later. You could probably go on with arguments related to age, but IMHO this is sufficient explanation that you never know how rider is talented.
GC contenders are most visible cyclist out there and their efforts are most comparable ones. Hence why there is most people suspiciuos of them same as you are. To divert attention to them does not help much; there are hundreds of pages about them doping compared to Sagan. Anyway you've said you FEEL that within non-GT contenders there is less doping but one can't judge whether one is or isn't doping based on emotions.
Why is Sagan suspicious? He can: sprint with the best and climb with some of the climbers; and maintain huge aerobic performance (while sprinting with the fastest, again). No sprinter as fast as Sagan can do that; there is a physiological reason to it. Historically I can't think of any rider like that maybe except for Merckx but these days cycling is very different so it's hardly comparable and Merckx himself doped so that doesn't help much, too.
Add to that he can participate in breakaways (at Tour or almost any race he chooses) emultiple consecutive days and not only partcipate, but actually fight for the victory, too. Nobody else can do that. Other guys get tired over time.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4033181/
What about 02-vector doping? Again, as I posted the link on the improved testing sensitivity of EPO microdosing, it's become more riskier, particulary in-competition. I suppose there's blood doping within the parameters of the ABP, but what evidence is there for that? Sagan isn't competing for GC, nor is he a key domestique for a top GC contender where a rider might find the benefits of blood doping outweighing the risks in order to push hard efforts on the long, sustained climbs of the high mountains for several days at a time. How about the metabolic modulators, i.e., Aicar or GW501516? IMO, no evidence of Aicar since he doesn't have the dramatic weight loss. And one 15 mg dose of GW501516 can be detected up to 60 days, plus it caused neoplastic changes in the clinicals with lab animals (bad idea...Lol). I suppose there's TUEs for the primary purpose of performance enhancement, but how would we know anything without disclosure? (No evidence without knowing...so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt).
I disagree that he can climb with some of the climbers. He hasn't shown any consistent climbing ability on the major mountains in any of Tours he's competed in. His best placing in GC was 42nd in 2012. His average finish in the 5 TdFs he's competed in is 65th. This past Tour he finished 95th, almost 3 1/2 hrs down from Froome...hardly the mark of a good climber. And he's not going to try and become a climber because he can't; he would need to drop 30+ lbs, or O2-vector dope well beyond the parameters of his ABP, which isn't going to happen. He's a Puncheur, classic specialist & Green jersey contender...and a talented one at that.
I agree with you that Sagan has maintained a "hugh aerobic performance," and I think the physiological reason for that is his high 83 VO2max. That's getting up there with the top endurance athletes in the world, and might explain his aerobic strength in the breakways, and some of the short, steep climbs that he attacks on. He's a heck of a talent, rides fast and has the power to pull away from his competition...is that always an indication of doping?
The original poster titled this thread: "Sagan clean?" I'm just giving my unadulterated opinion and what I see with Sagan. I'm probably wrong...as a lot of you on this forum have done impressive research and know a whole lot more about cycling & doping than I do (I'm in the "research & learning phase"...Lol). Nonetheless, I think it's an interesting discussion.
The shaky assumption that drug testing is 100% legit and isn't rife with corruption and conflict of interest.
^this.
If you have not been living in a cave these days, weeks and months, then you know antidoping is in a worse state than ever before.
If you have not been living in a cave these days, weeks and months, then you know antidoping is in a worse state than ever before.
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