Kokoso said:
Nomad said:
So far you've managed not to answer incovenient answers, Nomad. You've just choosen to ignore them for obviuos reason. That certainly doesn't make your opinion look more valid and certainly makes discussion with you...not fruitful
>No doping positive.
>No doping scandal.
>No suspicious TUE exposure.
These arguments are no firm evidence that rider is not doping. Arguably it is none or very weak evidence.
>No suspicious transformation.
While some transformation are suspicious, other are not.
>No rapid, significant weight loss
Weight loss is not only effect of doping. Actually in 90's GC contenders could be more bulky because all that doping they had. Regeneration is much better with doping and using oxygen vectors doping enables to maintain bigger musculature while not losing performance uphill.
>No sudden ability to climb with the best (dead give away, IMO, for 02-vector doping with a bigger, heavier rider).
That would be valid argument if he actually tried. Since he almost never tries, we can't make any assumptions. Nevertheless he was able to rode over Verbier on groups of twelve, he was able to follow wheel of Kreuziger, Van Garderen, hold with Mollema, Martin, Pinot, Peraud or Špilak...so there you go.
...that a very talented rider like Sagan...
Problem is we don't know whether he is very talented guy. It's popular statement here ins this forum. People like to base this statement on youth categories results - not only in Sagan's case. That is not right. One knows nothing how much the guys trained compared to others. And you don't know whether guys did not dope since 15 or 18 years of age, that would give them edge of course and they would have no "suspicious transformation" lately. And in youth categories there is much lesser concurency becuase there are riders of only few years age span. And guys can be at different stage of physical development; some are more mature, some less. Younger guy may be as mature or even more mature as older one so if they can beat older compatriots they look more talented but this advatage can disappear later. You could probably go on with arguments related to age, but IMHO this is sufficient explanation that you never know how rider is talented.
I'm suspicious of most GT contenders given the physical demands of a 3 week GT, though the ABP & improved controls have restricted doping, especially 02-vector doping, which is why I think we're seeing this ridiculous weight reduction & trendy anorexic look...GT contenders seem desperate to find any kind of performance gain. I feel, FWIW, there's much less doping and actually some clean riders, particulary within the non-GT contender spectrum of cycling.
GC contenders are most visible cyclist out there and their efforts are most comparable ones. Hence why there is most people suspiciuos of them same as you are. To divert attention to them does not help much; there are hundreds of pages about them doping compared to Sagan. Anyway you've said you FEEL that within non-GT contenders there is less doping but one can't judge whether one is or isn't doping based on emotions.
Why is Sagan suspicious? He can: sprint with the best and climb with some of the climbers; and maintain huge aerobic performance (while sprinting with the fastest, again). No sprinter as fast as Sagan can do that; there is a physiological reason to it. Historically I can't think of any rider like that maybe except for Merckx but these days cycling is very different so it's hardly comparable and Merckx himself doped so that doesn't help much, too.
Add to that he can participate in breakaways (at Tour or almost any race he chooses) emultiple consecutive days and not only partcipate, but actually fight for the victory, too. Nobody else can do that. Other guys get tired over time.
What specific PED(s) would Saga be supicious for?
Whatever you can think off. Moreover there can be PEDs we have no clue about, as it always is.
What about 02-vector doping? Again, as I posted the link on the improved testing sensitivity of EPO microdosing, it's become more riskier, particulary in-competition.
There are out of competition days too, most of them actually. Anyway you are anwering yourself here
I suppose there's blood doping within the parameters of the ABP
Sagan isn't competing for GC, nor is he a key domestique for a top GC contender where a rider might find the benefits of blood doping outweighing the risks in order to push hard efforts on the long, sustained climbs of the high mountains for several days at a time.
Effect of O2 vector is usefull in completely flat course, time trial, sustained climb in high mountains, on steep hills, in lower altitude, on one day only or multiple days effort. Simply wherever. About outweighing the risks - whenever doping can give you the edge to win or reach better result, it has benefit to his potential user. Be it Tour de France or RvV. Whether domestique or leader doesn't matter at all, but thought that domestique is more likely to dope than some leaders sounds strange to me; I don't get it.
How about the metabolic modulators, i.e., Aicar or GW501516?...plus it caused neoplastic changes in the clinicals with lab animals (bad idea...Lol).
Ridiculous argument. People are smoking/eating/drinking many compunds capable of causing health problems including cancer. That doesn't stop many of them to do that. EPO, corticosteroids and other doping can cause many health problems; analogicaly that doesn't stop people to use them.
"so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt)."
Me too, I am not saying he is doping, but he is one of the most suspicious certainly.
I disagree that he can climb with some of the climbers.
Obviously it's a matter of view on what "climbing with the best" means. For me it means he climbed with the best on one day. For you it is not sufficient; (at least lately, aren't you pushing point for this "climbing with the best" matter a bit?) now you are putting it the way that he's climbing with the best only if he's up there in Tour de France GC as you are citing his Tour GC placements. That is faulty logics as he never tried to finish the Tour as high as possible in GC, on certain days he simply rests and spares energy for other days so his GC placement doesn't show his true potential. I am truly surprised this doesn't come to your mind. So there is prove that he can climb with climbers on pretty hard climbs on one day, you can't deny that even if you try. Another example is Big Bear lake stage of AToC or his Giro di Sardegna overall victory. And there are other races that show for guy of his stature he climbs exceptionally well. Stage 5 of Tour de Romandie could be nice example, overall Tour of Poland victory and you would find others if you searched. I will put this way: point isn't so much that he can climb with best climbers. Point is that he can climb exceptionally well for his stature and his sprinter qualities (in some cases he took as far as really climbing with the best). Lately I can think of only van Avermaet who looks leaner to me showed similar perfoimance (and immediately people began to suspice him). Have you ever seen Cav, Greipel, Kittel or Nizzolo or whoever as fast as Sagan climb so well? That is not rhetorical question. No, you haven't, not even close.
He's a Puncheur, classic specialist & Green jersey contender...and a talented one at that.
Hahaha, stop this demagogy. We have no idea how talented he is compared to others. Probably almost all riders at WT level are highly talented for endurace sport. Nevertheless you skipped that he is great sprinter, too, one of the fastest guys out there. By a chance?
I agree with you that Sagan has maintained a "hugh aerobic performance," and I think the physiological reason for that is his high 83 VO2max.
VO2 max is something what improves with training, that is not something you are born with and never changes. Using O2 vectors improves O2 max se well as training.
I'm just giving my unadulterated opinion and what I see with Sagan. Nonetheless, I think it's an interesting discussion.
Maybe, but I don't understand why you choose not to answer questions that doesn't suit you. That and some Brailsfordesquing hints that your opinion on Sagan might be rather tendentious, but maybe you do it unintentionally.
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