Sagan Clean?

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

What claims? That Sagan is clean? Wow, do you have any evidence that he isn't? What are you insinuating? So now it's "cheater" until proven clean?

What claims?

Hmmm, Lets see:

You:

I doubt any other monument winner (that was a favorite) was cleaner than him, at least if we are looking at the past 100 years.

And you would know this how? Certainly there's some sort of proof or evidence you've seen or went by to come up with such a crazy statement? Can you please share the info you've seen that states this? 'ppreciate it

Or this:

You:

He certainly looks cleaner than LeMond ever did

AGAIN< How would you know this? Do you have inside information on either, willing to share it? Please answer the questions, thanks

 

[doperhopper]

Here we go... another ambassador of clean cycling... whyyyyy? Why everyone has to repeat that same old "now clean" mantra, "new era" and "new generation..." stories.

Not funny anymore.

Spiced with a bit if ometa ("what happened, happened").


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sagan-we-can-make-a-revolution-in-cycling/

 

[jahn]

Re:

Here we go... another ambassador of clean cycling... whyyyyy? Why everyone has to repeat that same old "now clean" mantra, "new era" and "new generation..." stories.

Not funny anymore.

Spiced with a bit if ometa ("what happened, happened").


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sagan-we-can-make-a-revolution-in-cycling/

It's groan-worthy yes but the sport desperately needs good PR for obvious reasons ($$$). I don't think anyone can disagree with that.

I'm obviously guessing the above was his angle to say that stuff. He's arguably the biggest star in the sport so the hypocrite PR burden is on his shoulders.

 

[doperhopper]

Re: Re:

Here we go... another ambassador of clean cycling... whyyyyy? Why everyone has to repeat that same old "now clean" mantra, "new era" and "new generation..." stories.

Not funny anymore.

Spiced with a bit if ometa ("what happened, happened").


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sagan-we-can-make-a-revolution-in-cycling/

It's groan-worthy yes but the sport desperately needs good PR for obvious reasons ($$$). I don't think anyone can disagree with that.

I'm obviously guessing the above was his angle to say that stuff. He's arguably the biggest star in the sport so the hypocrite PR burden is on his shoulders.

^^^^^^^^^^^^
nice explanation... what I wanted to point out is that Sagan in principle does not really need to play this "clean era" game for personal reasons - he is not the biggest target for accusers, nobody questions his career, progress, there are no suspicious performance jumps, no insane doper times beaten, etc

Yet, he goes into these waters.

I know, he will certainly profit from more money in cycling and clean(ish) image of cycling (at least wrt other sports) is important factor.

But come on, claiming peloton is clean in the year when random Foliforovs win crucial Giro MTT... and imagine, next year we can see fully fit Landa in full *** mode, beating everyone by a country mile (including nturally EPOed Colombians). Or perhaps Great Transformation of Kenny Ellisonde into 50 kilo TT monster. And couple of new zakarins of this world popping up here and there.

Will the peloton remain clean in the Sagan's PRspeak?

 

[ThePopeOfDope]

France 2 report on motor doping states that a rider who finished 4th a Strade Bianche had a suspicious heat signature. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15kIyBhsX8o go to 10.40.

 

[sniper]

Re:

France 2 report on motor doping states that a rider who finished 4th a Strade Bianche had a suspicious heat signature. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15kIyBhsX8o go to 10.40.

Indeed seems to be about Sagan.
Cooksons face is priceless.
(Btw, this was discussed previously in this thread and one of the motorthreads, but no harm in bringing it up again of course.)
Let's hope the upcoming documentary sheds more light on this.

 

[ThePopeOfDope]

I'm new to the forum and way to lazy to read every single post, just went straight to the last page

 

[sniper]

Re:

I'm new to the forum and way to lazy to read every single post, just went straight to the last page

Yes, and well done bringing it to our attention again.

What we see there is clearcut evidence of the world's nr1 cyclist....using a motor; and of the president of the UCI being shown the evidence and not acting upon it.

It's odd that this hasn't gotten more traction in the (social) media.

 

[ThePopeOfDope]

I think its because people are way to obsessed with Sky and Astana.

 

[pastronef]

Re:

I think its because people are way to obsessed with Sky and Astana

Make it just Sky, Astana is fine

 

[ThePopeOfDope]

Seems like in this forum you're right. I'm used to youtube videos where its a 50-50 battle between Astana and Sky.

 

[red_flanders]

Re:

France 2 report on motor doping states that a rider who finished 4th a Strade Bianche had a suspicious heat signature. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15kIyBhsX8o go to 10.40.

So the heat signature in the beginning where they had their own rider was blatantly obvious, very hot and going up the entire seat tube as well as lighting up the bottom bracket. What I saw at about the 10:00 mark was a tiny heat bloom on the crank arm spindle. I don't speak french, can someone explain in english what kind of motor they are suggesting caused this? They also didn't seem to compare it to any other bikes (that I saw, could have missed it), so it really doesn't look like much to me. I would assume parts of the bike like the rear cog and bb would show some heat from friction, depending on the calibration of the heat-sensing device and the colors assigned to different temperatures.

What kind of motor are they suggesting this was?

At the end the bike shop guy (or whoever he was) reacts to a heat bloom on the rear cog. That I kind of get, but I don't see this as conclusive in any way just from looking at the images and not getting the explanation in french.

I'm very curious about the details. It is clear that the technology exists and that people have used it. I'm less clear on the specifics and evidence about anyone in that video.

 

[spalco]

Re: Re:

nice explanation... what I wanted to point out is that Sagan in principle does not really need to play this "clean era" game for personal reasons - he is not the biggest target for accusers, nobody questions his career, progress, there are no suspicious performance jumps, no insane doper times beaten, etc

Sagan is obviously extremely talented to put it mildly, but historically allrounders, sprinters and classics riders have been no cleaner than mountain goats or GT-riders, so I think the last part of that sentence is not a strong argument.

And of course many other riders would be ripped apart in the Clinic for saying what Sagan said there.

 

[Tienus]

@red_flanders

Dont know if you have seen this but it should answer some of your questions:
http://www.thebikelane.com.au/2016/04/mechanical-doping-strade-2/

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

Sagan is obviously extremely talented to put it mildly

Good laugh on this. Maybe you could say "he's cycling god, to put it mildly".

Anyway, based on what is he more than extremely talented?

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Sagan is obviously extremely talented to put it mildly

Good laugh on this. Maybe you could say "he's cycling god, to put it mildly".

Anyway, based on what is he more than extremely talented?

I laughed a bit too.

Objectively, the only *obvious* thing is that he who dominates pro-cycling is doing so by means of exuberant cheating.
True talent in procycling simply cannot be assessed.
It's a sad state of affairs, symptomatic of a system in which cheaters prevail.

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

Sagan is obviously extremely talented to put it mildly

Good laugh on this. Maybe you could say "he's cycling god, to put it mildly".

Anyway, based on what is he more than extremely talented?

I laughed a bit too.

Objectively, the only *obvious* thing is that he who dominates pro-cycling is doing so by means of exuberant cheating.
True talent in procycling simply cannot be assessed.
It's a sad state of affairs, symptomatic of a system in which cheaters prevail.

I shoud say that I haven't laughed to the statement that Sagan is talented, but to the ridiculous way it was expressed. Like - when you say someone is extremely talented, you don't add "to put it mildly", because it doesn't make any sense other than the author is worshipper of Sagan who values his talent as out of this world.

I agree on that there is no way how to assess talent; as I've argued for that before. CN forum's are full of such statements though, Sagan's and Colombian's followers one the sticking out (of course not all of them).

 

[spalco]

Well, Sagan has been winning or nearly winning pretty much ervery single race he wanted to in the last couple years, but whatever, I'm not a fan anyway.

 

[ThePopeOfDope]

Re: Re:

France 2 report on motor doping states that a rider who finished 4th a Strade Bianche had a suspicious heat signature. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15kIyBhsX8o go to 10.40.

So the heat signature in the beginning where they had their own rider was blatantly obvious, very hot and going up the entire seat tube as well as lighting up the bottom bracket. What I saw at about the 10:00 mark was a tiny heat bloom on the crank arm spindle. I don't speak french, can someone explain in english what kind of motor they are suggesting caused this? They also didn't seem to compare it to any other bikes (that I saw, could have missed it), so it really doesn't look like much to me. I would assume parts of the bike like the rear cog and bb would show some heat from friction, depending on the calibration of the heat-sensing device and the colors assigned to different temperatures.

What kind of motor are they suggesting this was?

At the end the bike shop guy (or whoever he was) reacts to a heat bloom on the rear cog. That I kind of get, but I don't see this as conclusive in any way just from looking at the images and not getting the explanation in french.

I'm very curious about the details. It is clear that the technology exists and that people have used it. I'm less clear on the specifics and evidence about anyone in that video.

Mr.Varjas claims you can have a motor in the BB, rear cog or the rear wheel.
For me the conclusive evidence is the UCI reluctance to investigate, and Cookson's face.
There was a follow up on France 2 where right after the release of part 1 the UCI organized a meeting presented by Mr.Barfield (I think that's his name) with journalists to show their tablet technology. What made this weird was that
1: journalist had to stay 3 m away from bike and tablet
2: prior to the release of part 1 Italian and French journalists asked the UCI to have access to the technology for their investigation but where told to wait (indefinitely).
3: the bike with the e motor is from a brand affiliated with Varjas.

 

[red_flanders]

Re:

@red_flanders

Dont know if you have seen this but it should answer some of your questions:
http://www.thebikelane.com.au/2016/04/mechanical-doping-strade-2/

Thank you. That appears to confirms my suspicions that there was little evidence of anything presented in those videos about actual motor use in the pro peloton. And nothing about a specific rider.

I don’t think Thierry Vildary has delivered on the new claims, physical evidence of a rear motor is not presented. The story continually diverts either to seatpost motors, electromagnetic motors, things are pictured that have no relevance to what appeared on the heat gun on the side of the road, that is the heat from the rear hub. All of the other items have been discussed and presented by others in the past although the thermal camera was a nice touch.

What was missing? They should have put a standard bike on an indoor trainer at 300 watts for 20-30 minutes and pointed the thermal camera at it for a comparison, the rear hub has four bearings and friction going on in there so it would be nice to see a reference point, same with the bottom bracket. They should also have attempted to build an example of what they were claiming, a motorized rear hub, we had all the inventors and experts there but none willing to attempt or show a working example. For me this was not investigated enough.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

France 2 report on motor doping states that a rider who finished 4th a Strade Bianche had a suspicious heat signature. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15kIyBhsX8o go to 10.40.

So the heat signature in the beginning where they had their own rider was blatantly obvious, very hot and going up the entire seat tube as well as lighting up the bottom bracket. What I saw at about the 10:00 mark was a tiny heat bloom on the crank arm spindle. I don't speak french, can someone explain in english what kind of motor they are suggesting caused this? They also didn't seem to compare it to any other bikes (that I saw, could have missed it), so it really doesn't look like much to me. I would assume parts of the bike like the rear cog and bb would show some heat from friction, depending on the calibration of the heat-sensing device and the colors assigned to different temperatures.

What kind of motor are they suggesting this was?

At the end the bike shop guy (or whoever he was) reacts to a heat bloom on the rear cog. That I kind of get, but I don't see this as conclusive in any way just from looking at the images and not getting the explanation in french.

I'm very curious about the details. It is clear that the technology exists and that people have used it. I'm less clear on the specifics and evidence about anyone in that video.

Mr.Varjas claims you can have a motor in the BB, rear cog or the rear wheel.
For me the conclusive evidence is the UCI reluctance to investigate, and Cookson's face.
There was a follow up on France 2 where right after the release of part 1 the UCI organized a meeting presented by Mr.Barfield (I think that's his name) with journalists to show their tablet technology. What made this weird was that
1: journalist had to stay 3 m away from bike and tablet
2: prior to the release of part 1 Italian and French journalists asked the UCI to have access to the technology for their investigation but where told to wait (indefinitely).
3: the bike with the e motor is from a brand affiliated with Varjas.

Well the bolded certainly does make one very suspicious, but "conclusive evidence"? Not for me. Based on what I saw in the video Cookson's face might well be contorted because he's wondering "who let these guys in...they have nothing of interest here". He's an odd dude and I'm no fan, and certainly think he's wildly compromised by his many relationships with BC and Sky, but I see nothing there which is convincing.

I don't doubt there are some motors in the peloton. This "expose" didn't find them. IMO. To the topic of the thread, I certainly don't see anything pointing to a specific rider, let alone Sagan.

I absolutely remain open and could have missed something, and would be happy to have someone point it out. I'm just reporting what I see at this point.

 

[Tienus]

That appears to confirms my suspicions that there was little evidence of anything presented in those videos about actual motor use in the pro peloton. And nothing about a specific rider.

The investigators / journalists seem to be very sure about a number of riders (cant remember how many) who use seatpost motors and some with hub motors. For whatever reason they did not mention any names of the riders involved. We only found out Roglic was one of them when his pre ITT bike chance was witnessed.

To the topic of the thread, I certainly don't see anything pointing to a specific rider, let alone Sagan.

At 11:15 in the stade 2 documentary he is telling Cooksen "We can say there is a motor in the bike". The bike was apparently no longer glowing at the end of the race. Cooksen confirmed the bike had been checked after the race. "He finished fourth".
Stade 2 had been filming at two races, at strade bianchi the bikes had been checked after the race and Sagan finished fourth.

 

[Tienus]

Just for fun a link to what I think are three riders with motors battling.
At 3:30 Cancellara is doing his seated attack and Sagan follows. For me it doesnt look right if i focus only on the legs of Sagan.
https://youtu.be/kzw-96RkfL8?t=3m30s

 

[red_flanders]

Re:

The investigators / journalists seem to be very sure about a number of riders (cant remember how many) who use seatpost motors and some with hub motors. For whatever reason they did not mention any names of the riders involved. We only found out Roglic was one of them when his pre ITT bike chance was witnessed.

I understand–I wish they could show the visual evidence that made them so sure. I don't see what they show in the video as particularly compelling.

At 11:15 in the stade 2 documentary he is telling Cooksen "We can say there is a motor in the bike". The bike was apparently no longer glowing at the end of the race. Cooksen confirmed the bike had been checked after the race. "He finished fourth".
Stade 2 had been filming at two races, at strade bianchi the bikes had been checked after the race and Sagan finished fourth.

Again I understand, I just don't see what they're showing him in the video. What they show us is not compelling at all. I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm just saying what they claim and what they actually show appear to be at odds.

I think not being able to understand what's being said really allows you to focus on what the visual evidence actually is. And it isn't much. Maybe they have more but I can't figure why they don't show it.

 

[Nomad]

Re:

Just for fun a link to what I think are three riders with motors battling.
At 3:30 Cancellara is doing his seated attack and Sagan follows. For me it doesnt look right if i focus only on the legs of Sagan.
https://youtu.be/kzw-96RkfL8?t=3m30s

I remember watchng that stage live...exciting finish! I watched the video you posted several times, and a family member looked at it a couple times also...so what isn't suppose to appear right with either Sagan or Spartacus? I see two very big guys producing big time power up a short, steep climb that flattens out near the finish...nothing out of the norm there. Look at the quads on these guys and their muscularity; those physical attributes can produce big-time power on short bursts. Furthermore, Spartacus is seriously grimacing in pain on the climb...if he's using a motor why would he be grimacing that much? Wouldn't he be able to give less effort and keep his tempo going with a motor? Also, when the course flattens out both he & Sagan let up continuously looking back - why not keep charging if you're using a motor for that extra power? (they both look little toasted at that point...trying to stay clear of the charging peloton). IMO, Sagan just out-kicks an older Cancellara for the win...nothing too overwhelming there.

Maybe Mr. Froome should be the center of attention on this issue. Here's a very dimuinitive, frail, anorexic-looking rider doing his best Cancellara impression by crushing TTs with massive amount of power. Lol. Doesn’t that sound like the possibility of a motor involved? (the guy never demonstrated TT ability before the Miracle transformation of 2011). But he's Britain's "holier-than-thou" hero, so instead people are suspicious of big, muscular talented riders that can generate big-time power. Don't know what I'm missing on the video, other than seeing two very talented Clydesdales duking it out on one heck of a finish up a short, steep incline.