Sagan or Gilbert

[The Hitch]

Hitch, Hitch, Hitch, i never expected this from you of all people

.

Thanks

Apart from the obvious features

1.There's a 23% ethnic Russian population in Kazakhstan.

2. Vinokourov was born in Petropavlovsk where ethnic Russians make up the vast majority (3/4) of the population even today

So is Vino an ethnic Rus in Kazakhstan, or an ethnic Kazakh in the ethnic Rus part of Kazakhstan?

 

[roundabout]

Brajkovic had his best year in 2010.

 

[The Hitch]

.

And I know what the boundaries of Europe are nowadays, but they're complete nonsense. Turkey for me qualifies more to be part of Europe than Russia for example.

I like this discussion. The Bosphporus has always been aknowledged as a border between Europe and Asia. During the crusades the Byazantines would ferry the christians over the border and they immediately knew they were outside europe, in unknown lands. In fact on several crusades the Seljuk Turks immediately attacked the crusaders. It was a clear boundry and so it remains. So a small part of Turkey is in Europe, the rest is in Asia.

Russia is a similar situation. The Varangiens came into Rus from Scandinavia. During the period of early Rus and then the Muscovite period, Rus was very much part of Europe. Then this Rus kingdom started to expand greatly into those barren wastelands of Siberia, but the roots of Russia have always been in Europe.

Besides for me the definition of europe has usually been - lands which have historically been christian.

Certainatly today the 3 main criteria for being part of Eastern Europe are

1 Was communist in 20th century - check
2 Speaks slavic language - check
3 Has orthodox christian faith - check

So Russia is European. Sure it has Vladivostock on the east coast and millionhs of useless km between that and Moscow, but it is still a european country.

 

[theyoungest]

And I know what the boundaries of Europe are nowadays, but they're complete nonsense. Turkey for me qualifies more to be part of Europe than Russia for example.

St. Petersburg not European enough for you?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Of course, though the majority of Eastern Europe is Slavic (and some of central Europe - geographically you'd be hard pushed to call the Czech Republic, or the Sorbenländer in the Lausitz region of Germany, "Eastern Europe"), there are exceptions. Romania and Moldova speak Romance languages, related to Spanish, Italian etc. Latvia and Lithuania speak Baltic languages that share some history with the Slavic languages but are an entirely different arm of the Indo-European linguistic family. Albania is its own completely separate arm of the family, as is Greece. Hungary is a linguistic anomaly, speaking a Uralic language which is not related to any of its neighbours; Estonia and Finland also speak such languages; all of their relatives are small territorial and tribal languages in the north of Russia and the Ural mountain areas.

Another way to suggest 'Europe' is along linguistic-cultural borders, which would mean the home of pretty much every Indo-European language save for 3 branches - Hittite and Tocharian (both extinct) and the Indo-Iranian languages. This therefore includes the Slavic languages (and thus European Russia) but excludes Turkey. The drawback to this is that it excludes areas that are most definitely European, such as Hungary and the Basque country.

 

[El Pistolero]

I like this discussion. The Bosphporus has always been aknowledged as a border between Europe and Asia. During the crusades the Byazantines would ferry the christians over the border and they immediately knew they were outside europe, in unknown lands. In fact on several crusades the Seljuk Turks immediately attacked the crusaders. It was a clear boundry and so it remains. So a small part of Turkey is in Europe, the rest is in Asia.

Russia is a similar situation. The Varangiens came into Rus from Scandinavia. During the period of early Rus and then the Muscovite period, Rus was very much part of Europe. Then this Rus kingdom started to expand greatly into those barren wastelands of Siberia, but the roots of Russia have always been in Europe.

Besides for me the definition of europe has usually been - lands which have historically been christian.

Certainatly today the 3 main criteria for being part of Eastern Europe are

1 Was communist in 20th century - check
2 Speaks slavic language - check
3 Has orthodox christian faith - check

So Russia is European. Sure it has Vladivostock on the east coast and millionhs of useless km between that and Moscow, but it is still a european country.

Russia has always been viewed as backwards by what we would call Western Europe now. The Grand Duchy of Moscow, the Kiev Kingdom, Tsardom of Russia, etc weren't really viewed as being European. Integration starts somewhere during the Napoleonic era. And even then the differences were huge. Western Europe being way more liberal, and Russia being autocratic.

But I was making a reference to the EU constitution in my post. If following that than Turkey qualifies more than Russia. No offence, but Russia's democracy is kind of a joke.

But the Turkish integration into Europe starts with the collapse of the Byzantine Empire and not during it. The Ottomans controlled large parts of the Balkan for almost 500 years. The Ottoman empire is also viewed as the Islamic successor of the Eastern Roman/Byzantine(let's not forget that Byzantine is just a term used by historians, they called them self Romans) empire. Russia also made claims to being the successor, but most historians call the Ottoman empire to be the true successor of the Byzantine Empire. And well, the Byzantines considered the "Russians" as dumb barbarians anyway(technically speaking all non Greeks are barbarians, but you know what I mean ). And then you have Atatürk, he "westernized" Turkey after the "fall' of the Ottoman empire. France had a military alliance with the Ottoman empire for example against the Habsburgers(during the reign of Richelieu).

And I totally agree that Russia was considered to be part of Europe in the 20th century though! Seeing as they continuously tried to expand into it during the 19th and 20th century to get an ice free harbor. They fought countless of wars with the Ottomans to obtain an ice free harbor.

And communism comes from Western Europe and not Russia though! Most communist revolutions in Western Europe just failed, while they succeeded in Russia and eastern Europe.

But this is really just my opinion and not facts I'm stating. I'll never consider Russia to be European(at least not my notion of what being a European means. It's similar to the EU constitution). Obviously Russia is considered to be part of the European continent, but I don't have to agree with that.

 

[hrotha]

There wasn't much of an ideological concept of "Europe" at the time Muscovy, Kiev or Novgorod were powerful principalities, though. It was just a vague geographical idea. The medieval equivalent was "Christendom", and it half included and half excluded the Russian principalities.

 

[El Pistolero]

There wasn't much of an ideological concept of "Europe" at the time Muscovy, Kiev or Novgorod were powerful principalities, though. It was just a vague geographical idea. The medieval equivalent was "Christendom", and it half included and half excluded the Russian principalities.

I'm fully aware I'm using anachronisms, but there hardly was any interconnection between Romanised Europe(+ East Francia/ the Holy Roman empire. Which was neither holy, Roman or an Empire. xD) and Grand Duchy of Muscovy, Kiev kingdom, Tsardom of Russia, etc.

 

[The Hitch]

Firstly, to make this post cycling related and hence immune to mod intervention
, i will answer the original question as i have not yet done so.

Giilbert

Now

No offence, but Russia's democracy is kind of a joke.

Who do you feel your offending. I doubt anyone here sees Putin as anything less than dictator. You know somethings up when a "president" says the fall of the Soviet Union was the worlds greatest geopolitcial catastrophe. I am Garry Kasparovs biggest fan. Gazprom runs Russia and the mafia run Gazprom.

Still, europe is not defined by the European Union. I know you Belgians must be proud of it and all but still a long way to go before you can use that definiton.

ps you have said many times that you are university student, (as am i and a few others here) Out of interest what do you study?

 

[roundabout]

Thanks


So is Vino an ethnic Rus in Kazakhstan, or an ethnic Kazakh in the ethnic Rus part of Kazakhstan?

Well, given the d.o.b. (in the 1970's ethnic Russians were 40% of the Kazakhstan population), place of birth (close to the border with Russia in the region were Russians made up the absolute majority of the population), his name (Russian) and his religion he is very likely to be mostly Russian.

 

[El Pistolero]

Firstly, to make this post cycling related and hence immune to mod intervention
, i will answer the original question as i have not yet done so.

Giilbert

Now



Who do you feel your offending. I doubt anyone here sees Putin as anything less than dictator. You know somethings up when a "president" says the fall of the Soviet Union was the worlds greatest geopolitcial catastrophe. I am Garry Kasparovs biggest fan. Gazprom runs Russia and the mafia run Gazprom.

Still, europe is not defined by the European Union. I know you Belgians must be proud of it and all but still a long way to go before you can use that definiton.

ps you have said many times that you are university student, (as am i and a few others here) Out of interest what do you study?

Gilbert.

---

off topic:

I study history. Most of my courses I picked have to do with the Near east, South eastern Europe(Balkan only) and Western Europe. But my biggest interest lies with the antiquity(Greek/Roman history)
Also a big fan of religious history(and no I'm not religious.)

I know virtually nothing about central Asian history though.

 

[hrotha]

I'm fully aware I'm using anachronisms, but there hardly was any interconnection between Romanised Europe(+ East Francia/ the Holy Roman empire. Which was neither holy, Roman or an Empire. xD) and Grand Duchy of Muscovy, Kiev kingdom, Tsardom of Russia, etc.

Well, Novgorod was an important trading centre, and Swedes, Poles and the Teutonic Order were more acquainted with the Russians than they'd have liked, but yeah, for centuries Russia was this freakish faraway land where weird people in furs lived.

 

[theyoungest]

ps you have said many times that you are university student, (as am i and a few others here) Out of interest what do you study?

Bigotry and demagoguery, probably.

edit: ah, I've got it wrong.

 

[The Hitch]

off topic:

I study history. Most of my courses I picked have to do with the Near east, South eastern Europe(Balkan only) and Western Europe. But my biggest interest lies with the antiquity(Greek/Roman history)
Also a big fan of religious history(and no I'm not religious.)

You study european history, you hijack threads to complain about lack of democracy in china and Russia and your not religious.

We have a lot in common

Bigotry and demagoguery, probably.

edit: ah, I've got it wrong.

I cant work out if your mocking me for my overuse of these 2 words on other threads, El pistolero for being a bigot and a demagogue , or both of us.

Nonetheless a very witty comment.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

You really want me to make a list of all eastern europeans who stopped progressing early?

a generalization hardly makes you correct.
Liquigas could mend sagan into a real force. I agree gilbert is better, but I disagree with your point. Time will tell though...

 

[El Pistolero]

a generalization hardly makes you correct.
Liquigas could mend sagan into a real force. I agree gilbert is better, but I disagree with your point. Time will tell though...

Well, Gilbert is better now, but you never know what the future holds.

 

[royalpig180]

This may be the MOST hijacked thread I've ever seen...
Progression:
-Gilbert v. Sagan
-Sagan is Eastern European, all Eastern Europeans don't progress with age.
-Vinokurouv did.
-Is he Christian/Russian?
-Russia!
-Turkey!
-Russia!

Well, Novgorod was an important trading centre, and Swedes, Poles and the Teutonic Order were more acquainted with the Russians than they'd have liked, but yeah, for centuries Russia was this freakish faraway land where weird people in furs lived.

Welcome to the 21st century people. Communism in Russia is gone, there is no Berlin Wall, yadayadayada. Russia is no longer a "freakish faraway land". It's essentially part of Europe now regardless of any geographic technicalities. And this still has nothing to do with cycling.

My money's on sagan being better in the future, but if I had to pick right now, it would be Gilbert based on past results and the unknown element of Sagan's future.

 

[dolophonic]

Vote for Phil.. he has had some really good seasons Sagan is promising..
Just sign em all like Shack or Shleck !

The off topic convo is illuminating. Thanks.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Well, Gilbert is better now, but you never know what the future holds.

that was my point.
I'd say sagan will have a tough job beating gilbert. But just because other eastern europeans ' stopped progressing' doesn't mean it will happen to sagan, that's hardly an argument imo.

 

[ergmonkey]

I'm not willing to embrace the notion that Eastern Europeans don't improve with age. And I'm especially not willing to argue that Kreuziger has hit his peak.

BUT, I have no problem mentioning that Popovych has done nothing but go downhill since his early podium at the Giro. What a bust.

 

[royalpig180]

I'm not willing to embrace the notion that Eastern Europeans don't improve with age. And I'm especially not willing to argue that Kreuziger has hit his peak.

BUT, I have no problem mentioning that Popovych has done nothing but go downhill since his early podium at the Giro. What a bust.

You're definitely right that Popovych never lived up to his potential, but how much of this was because of him being a "bust"? I think a lot of the reason for his failure to repeat the results of the beginning of his career is just that for one reason or another, he has chosen to use his talents as a domestique rather than a team leader. He has signed with teams where he knows he will be working for a leader in the GTs. Don't see how that makes him happy, but apparently it does.

 

[theyoungest]

I'm not willing to embrace the notion that Eastern Europeans don't improve with age. And I'm especially not willing to argue that Kreuziger has hit his peak.

BUT, I have no problem mentioning that Popovych has done nothing but go downhill since his early podium at the Giro. What a bust.

Maybe not, but for whatever reason he hasn't really progressed in the past 3 years. The Stagnation of Kreuziger is a topic that's been discussed to death on this forum, but there's a truth to it.

 

[ILovecycling]

Maybe not, but for whatever reason he hasn't really progressed in the past 3 years. The Stagnation of Kreuziger is a topic that's been discussed to death on this forum, but there's a truth to it.

He'll show you the stagnation...for Kreuziger - Giro TOP 3 next year

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

He'll show you the stagnation...for Kreuziger - Giro TOP 3 next year

Ha! On that course... no chance. Kreuziger doesn't cut it in the high mountains.

depending on the field he will struggle to contend with the real men. Scarponi, Ricco and nibali alone are too good for him. Not sure whom else is going but I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[ILovecycling]

Ha! On that course... no chance. Kreuziger doesn't cut it in the high mountains.

depending on the field he will struggle to contend with the real men. Scarponi, Ricco and nibali alone are too good for him. Not sure whom else is going but I wouldn't hold my breath.

yes,i get it...Nibali is for me only contender for wining Giro,ah sure...maybe Ricardo...but its realistic Kreuziger for Top 3 Scarponi,Menchov,Anton are on higher level then Kreuziger,but he will get good team support