San Sebastian/Klasikoa Race-Thread; Goodbye Ninja

[TMP402]

If Landa's attack was a real, thought-out attempt to prevent a Dumoulin attack at 1km, then chapeau x 100. But I'm not convinced he didn't just try to win it for himself.

 

[johnymax]

Tactically Sky was just perfect the whole race. Textbook stuff. And Michal, what can I say...A magnificent rider. Well deserved victory after the job he's done in the Tour and another demonstration of his superb form this season. The Worlds should be fun with him, Sagan, EBH, GVA...

 

[Valv.Piti]

Sky didn't just have the strongest team, they had by far the strongest team. Kwito, Landa, Nieve, Moscon and Henao... but yeah they played it perfectly.

 

[DNP-Old]

Re: Re:

Kwiatkowski probably wins it in the sprint.

If Sky let this come to a sprint they messed up.

Sky have certainly adapted their approach to one day races compared with a couple of years ago. It also helps having the strongest team. Moscon is a huge talent and then the three Michaelteers take over. They got the tactics just right. Landa didn't really have a chance against Gallopin and especially when Mollema caught them, it was clear that they had to play the Flowers card. Landa attacks, Dumoulin follows, the guy with probably the weakest sprint. Gallopin relies on Mollema as the defending champ to chase, leaving Flowers the job of beating Gallopin in the sprint and as planned he comes off his wheel to win.

I'm guessing that Dumoulin didn't have the legs to go again after he caught Landa, since from that position it was the only way of winning.

It worked out for them, but going to the line with Gallopin was a gigantic risk. He's rapid as it is, but for some reason he is always just flying in Donostia. I initially thought Landa waited too long with his attack actually. But oh well, it could have been way worse for them. If Dumoulin had the legs, which I doubt he did, he countered Landa and this would have been done for.

 

[johnymax]

Re:

If Landa's attack was a real, thought-out attempt to prevent a Dumoulin attack at 1km, then chapeau x 100. But I'm not convinced he didn't just try to win it for himself.

Of course he tried to win it for himself. But can you blame him? He's had excellent form for the past month but no real result (stage win, podium,...) to back it up mainly because working for others. And also by attacking he allowed Kwiatek to just sit on the wheels and follow the moves. Oh and of course he was racing in front of his people.

 

[Pricey_sky]

Re: Re:

If Landa's attack was a real, thought-out attempt to prevent a Dumoulin attack at 1km, then chapeau x 100. But I'm not convinced he didn't just try to win it for himself.

Of course he tried to win it for himself. But can you blame him? He's had excellent form for the past month but no real result (stage win, podium,...) to back it up mainly because working for others. And also by attacking he allowed Kwiatek to just sit on the wheels and follow the moves. Oh and of course he was racing in front of his people.

It was a worthwhile attack, that was the only chance in that situation where he could win, as it was highly unlikely he would beat any of the others in a sprint. It also gave Kwiatkowski the chance to sit on and let the others pull if they wanted the opportunity to win.

Dumoulin was possibly the only one who could have ridden away but he had not long managed to chase back on and had to respond to Landa's attack which finished him off. It worked out perfectly for Kwiatkowski, at least this way it meant Landa had a small chance to try to win, rather than just pull on the front for the final 5k.

 

[Tank Engine]

Re: Re:

It worked out for them, but going to the line with Gallopin was a gigantic risk. He's rapid as it is, but for some reason he is always just flying in Donostia. I initially thought Landa waited too long with his attack actually. But oh well, it could have been way worse for them. If Dumoulin had the legs, which I doubt he did, he countered Landa and this would have been done for.

I definitely agree that Gallopin was by far the biggest threat. However, given that Gallopin came over the final climb with Landa clear of Flowers with Mollema in between, I would be happy manoeuvring into a position where it was basically Flowers sprinting against Gallopin.

On the other hand, it's easy to say with hindsight. They won and therefore their tactics were good

(I don't really believe that, if Terpstra had managed to win the sprint against Yogi in the Omloop a couple of years back, Quickstep's tactics in the end game would still have stunk).

 

[TMP402]

Re: Re:

If Landa's attack was a real, thought-out attempt to prevent a Dumoulin attack at 1km, then chapeau x 100. But I'm not convinced he didn't just try to win it for himself.

Of course he tried to win it for himself. But can you blame him? He's had excellent form for the past month but no real result (stage win, podium,...) to back it up mainly because working for others. And also by attacking he allowed Kwiatek to just sit on the wheels and follow the moves. Oh and of course he was racing in front of his people.

It was a worthwhile attack, that was the only chance in that situation where he could win, as it was highly unlikely he would beat any of the others in a sprint. It also gave Kwiatkowski the chance to sit on and let the others pull if they wanted the opportunity to win.

Dumoulin was possibly the only one who could have ridden away but he had not long managed to chase back on and had to respond to Landa's attack which finished him off. It worked out perfectly for Kwiatkowski, at least this way it meant Landa had a small chance to try to win, rather than just pull on the front for the final 5k.

Well, that's easy to say with hindsight. It isn't at all hard to imagine an alternative situation where Landa goes, Dumoulin follows, Mollema and Gallopin stall or can't/won't chase and it's down to Landa vs Dumoulin and Tom wins. If I was Sky's DS I would have had Landa working on the front and Kwiatkowski on Dumoulin's wheel in anticipation for the attack, not have Landa attack and jeopardise Kwiatkowski being able to sprint for the win.

 

[TMP402]

Re: Re:

It worked out for them, but going to the line with Gallopin was a gigantic risk. He's rapid as it is, but for some reason he is always just flying in Donostia. I initially thought Landa waited too long with his attack actually. But oh well, it could have been way worse for them. If Dumoulin had the legs, which I doubt he did, he countered Landa and this would have been done for.

I definitely agree that Gallopin was by far the biggest threat. However, given that Gallopin came over the final climb with Landa clear of Flowers with Mollema in between, I would be happy manoeuvring into a position where it was basically Flowers sprinting against Gallopin.

On the other hand, it's easy to say with hindsight. They won and therefore their tactics were good

(I don't really believe that, if Terpstra had managed to win the sprint against Yogi in the Omloop a couple of years back, Quickstep's tactics in the end game would still have stunk).

I still remember that race like it was last week. The biggest question is why did Boonen attack?! Does he dislike/distrust Terpstra that much? Okay maybe Stannard had a better than 1% chance of being him in the sprint, but really, come on.

 

[JRanton]

Re: Re:

Sky seemed to have worked out 1 day racing better. Kwiatkowski chapeau! but buy your teammates a drink or two ... Landa must be getting tired of pulling people to the line

They just bought Kwiatkowski...

Pretty much. A lack of legs at the elite level has been the problem with Sky in the classics over the years. Thomas constantly falling off his bike hasn't helped but even he hasn't quite demonstrated the strength (or more so explosiveness) needed to win the big ones.

 

[HelloDolly]

Tactics smatics...if you have by far the strongest team in the race of course your tacics work...
And if you havent then all the tactics in the world is going to beat SKY with Henao, Nieve, Landa , Moscon & Kwait

 

[Tank Engine]

Re:

Tactics smatics...if you have by far the strongest team in the race of course your tacics work...
And if you havent then all the tactics in the world is going to beat SKY with Henao, Nieve, Landa , Moscon & Kwait

See Omloop 2015.

If your tactics are OK and you have the strongest team, then you are likely to win.

If your tactics stink and you have the strongest team....

Of course, if Sky had lost, you might question their tactics, but at no moment in the finale was I surprised at how the Michaels raced and expected a close sprint between Gallopin and Flowers.

When Boonen attacked in Omloop, it was
So it's not all hindsight.

 

[Krokro]

Re: Re:

Tactics smatics...if you have by far the strongest team in the race of course your tacics work...
And if you havent then all the tactics in the world is going to beat SKY with Henao, Nieve, Landa , Moscon & Kwait

See Omloop 2015.

If your tactics are OK and you have the strongest team, then you are likely to win.

If your tactics stink and you have the strongest team....

Of course, if Sky had lost, you might question their tactics, but at no moment in the finale was I surprised at how the Michaels raced and expected a close sprint between Gallopin and Flowers.

When Boonen attacked in Omloop, it was
So it's not all hindsight.

Totally agreed. 2015 Omloop was the perfect example of a lack of tactic being the strongest lineup with 4 (not sure of the number) riders vs one. We all know how it ended

 

[Arked]

Re:

If Landa's attack was a real, thought-out attempt to prevent a Dumoulin attack at 1km, then chapeau x 100. But I'm not convinced he didn't just try to win it for himself.

Just saw the replay of the race. Kwiatkowski was saying something through the radio (surely to Landa) 2 seconds before Landa's attack (1.4km to go). I think it pretty much confirms it was team tactics.

 

[PunchingRouleur]

Kwiatko should jump on Dumoulin wheel immediately. It was huge gamble and if Dumoulin had any legs it could be Valverde, Costa, Purito fiasco all over again.

 

[Echoes]

It's gonna be a great battle between Greg Van Avermaet and Michal Kwiatkowski for the World Tour. It's perhaps the first time I ever got interested in it. Last time overall year-end ranking interested me was Cunego-Bettini in 2004 but back then it was the UCI ranking. The ProTour was created the year after (later renamed World Tour).

I like both riders, so I wouldn't mind Kwiatek winning it. Perhaps out of chauvinism I'll have to root for Greg. Greg is not just a Belgian, he's also a Waaslander from Hamme, where my father has been raised and where relatives of mine are still living.

Greg did what he had to do. He came for a top10 place and got it. Shame that he could not outsprint Anthony Roux. I guess after such a hard race, pure speed is no longer what matters. A bit like I found it a shame he could not outsprint Majka for top10 place in Liège-Bastogne-Liège.

Normally Greg should still have a great lead on Kwiatkowski tomorrow but the races to come are much more in Kwiatek's favour. Is that right? I'm not in touch at all with it. I don't know about the point system (which should be ludicrous anyway, it's the UCI's after all). So I have no idea if he can hold on or not.

 

[Forever The Best]

Couldn't watch it since I was in a flight, but nice to see Kwiatkowski win. Also, Dumoulin surprised me with being this strong after not riding the TdF.

 

[Blanco]

It's gonna be a great battle between Greg Van Avermaet and Michal Kwiatkowski for the World Tour. It's perhaps the first time I ever got interested in it. Last time overall year-end ranking interested me was Cunego-Bettini in 2004 but back then it was the UCI ranking. The ProTour was created the year after (later renamed World Tour).

I like both riders, so I wouldn't mind Kwiatek winning it. Perhaps out of chauvinism I'll have to root for Greg. Greg is not just a Belgian, he's also a Waaslander from Hamme, where my father has been raised and where relatives of mine are still living.

Greg did what he had to do. He came for a top10 place and got it. Shame that he could not outsprint Anthony Roux. I guess after such a hard race, pure speed is no longer what matters. A bit like I found it a shame he could not outsprint Majka for top10 place in Liège-Bastogne-Liège.

Normally Greg should still have a great lead on Kwiatkowski tomorrow but the races to come are much more in Kwiatek's favour. Is that right? I'm not in touch at all with it. I don't know about the point system (which should be ludicrous anyway, it's the UCI's after all). So I have no idea if he can hold on or not.

Had Valverde stayed upright there would be no contest. This way it's going to be interesting indeed.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Yes, Valverde had most likely won, but luckily there are lots of worthy riders of the prize this year. No mediocrity allowed in 2017, apart from the Tour obviously.

 

[roundabout]

Van Avermaet is still pretty far ahead and it seems that Kwiatkowski will not ride most of the remaining WT races (probably going to Britain instead of Quebec/Montreal for example) so it's unlikely that it will be a battle.

 

[Tank Engine]

Re: Re:

Totally agreed. 2015 Omloop was the perfect example of a lack of tactic being the strongest lineup with 4 (not sure of the number) riders vs one. We all know how it ended

In the group, it was 3 (Boonen, Terpstra and Vandenbergh) against Stannard. To be fair, in the endgame it was 2 vs 1, since Vandenbergh was burnt to keep Vanmarcke and GvA behind (OK, they could have leaned on Stannard to do a bit of work, but, even so it was tactically acceptable, since the odds were still very strongly in their favour).

However, once Boonen attacked and Stannard kept his head by bringing him back slowly, all the hard work done by QS unravelled step by step over the course of a couple of minutes. By the end, I was almost in fits of laughter.