Saxo-Bank to SRAM

[Power13]

Aside from the never ending debate about Sh*tmano Vs. CampagNoGo, I haven't heard that many great things about ScRAM either. From what people are saying, pretty much everything sucks if they're not riding it.

Maybe I'll dig up my old Suntour Cyclone grouppo from back in the 80's and avoid the controversy

Cyclone? That schitt was the WORST!!!

I have heard mixed reviews about Red, but only as it pertains to the FD and cassette. Overall, it sounds prtty positive, especially for Force.

Personally, I'm kinda stuck right now. Hate the new shifter designs from Campag and Shimano, think 11 speed is just dumb and am concerned about the early reports of 7900 problems. Luckily I am not in the market right now, but if I was, I would probably go SRAM w/ a mix of Red and Force.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Ha, ha. I was riding Cyclone shortly after I hit puberty. I agree, it was crap. Cyclone, not puberty

I wish I knew more about the new SRAM stuff. I'll have to demo it to see what all the hype is about.

 

[Pietro]

SRAM RED is awesome! I think almost all cyclists wants that gear system

You would be wrong. If it wasn't offered on new bikes, it may not sell at all. Most that start with a frame opt for Campagnolo(mostly) or 7800/7900.

 

[Pietro]

Cyclone? That schitt was the WORST!!!

I have heard mixed reviews about Red, but only as it pertains to the FD and cassette. Overall, it sounds prtty positive, especially for Force.

Personally, I'm kinda stuck right now. Hate the new shifter designs from Campag and Shimano, think 11 speed is just dumb and am concerned about the early reports of 7900 problems. Luckily I am not in the market right now, but if I was, I would probably go SRAM w/ a mix of Red and Force.

It ain't about '11s' but better ergonomics and a more reliable lever(which was already much more reliable than Spam or shimaNO). Most comfy, most functional in terms of gear selection and front derailleur trim.

 

[patswana]

Zzzzz...link please to the empirical evidence that Campagnolo is better than Shimano.

Try riding all three yourself.

Campag Super Record is the standout!
It works better
It is more reliable
It is much less likely to have problems
If you do have problems, they can be fixed (as opposed to chuck it away and get a new one)
It is very comfortable
It is lighter
It lasts about twice as long
It looks better
You can change 4 gears at once in either direction with the RD
You'll never have issues with the gear and brake lever being the same

Comparing Dura Ace and Super Record is like comparing a Sony Vaio and an Apple MacBook Pro. Both will get the job done but the Mac is just the better option for a few dollars extra.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

+1

And how many years did it take for Shimano to finally figure out a way how to hide all their cables? Dumb.

 

[Power13]

Try riding all three yourself.

Campag Super Record is the standout!
It works better
It is more reliable
It is much less likely to have problems
If you do have problems, they can be fixed (as opposed to chuck it away and get a new one)
It is very comfortable
It is lighter
It lasts about twice as long
It looks better
You can change 4 gears at once in either direction with the RD
You'll never have issues with the gear and brake lever being the same

Comparing Dura Ace and Super Record is like comparing a Sony Vaio and an Apple MacBook Pro. Both will get the job done but the Mac is just the better option for a few dollars extra.

Boring......again, empirical evidence please. Not your opinion.

And, btw, I ride Campag.

 

[Pietro]

Boring......again, empirical evidence please. Not your opinion.

And, btw, I ride Campag.

Of COURSE is mostly opinion but there are some things that are measurable. Most important is lever function. Specifically, ease at selecting gears, like how many with the sweep of a lever in both directions and also the ease of moving the FD out of the way of the chain during cross gearing. In these areas, Campagnolo is clearly a better design. shimano is reducing the functionlity with 7900 and also with 6700 and sram has always had a pooor FD lever.

Don care how much shimano spouts that you don't need a FD trim, it still rubs. Another is new group compatibility. 7900 and 6700 STI are not compatible with 7800 and 6600 FDers or brakes PLUS the 7900 chainrings(and 6700?) are closer together. Probably make a 7800/6600 FD work with newer crank but the opposite, 7900/6700 STI/FD will not work with wider spaced 7800/6600 cranks. New crank please-$750 for 7900, big $ for 6700 probably.

 

[Power13]

Of COURSE is mostly opinion but there are some things that are measurable. Most important is lever function. Specifically, ease at selecting gears, like how many with the sweep of a lever in both directions and also the ease of moving the FD out of the way of the chain during cross gearing. In these areas, Campagnolo is clearly a better design. shimano is reducing the functionlity with 7900 and also with 6700 and sram has always had a pooor FD lever.

Don care how much shimano spouts that you don't need a FD trim, it still rubs. Another is new group compatibility. 7900 and 6700 STI are not compatible with 7800 and 6600 FDers or brakes PLUS the 7900 chainrings(and 6700?) are closer together. Probably make a 7800/6600 FD work with newer crank but the opposite, 7900/6700 STI/FD will not work with wider spaced 7800/6600 cranks. New crank please-$750 for 7900, big $ for 6700 probably.

Didn't Campag change their design so that you can only drop 4 cogs now instead of the whole cassette? Is that NOT a downgrade from previous desings, the same thing you are complaining abut with Shimano? So in comparison the defense of Campag is what....they don't suck as much as Shimano?

At some point you lose interchangeability between components as things develop. It is inevitable. Campag 8 speed wheels were not compatible with 9/10 speed stuff and people seemed to manage to survive.

 

[Pietro]

Didn't Campag change their design so that you can only drop 4 cogs now instead of the whole cassette? Is that NOT a downgrade from previous desings, the same thing you are complaining abut with Shimano? So in comparison the defense of Campag is what....they don't suck as much as Shimano?

At some point you lose interchangeability between components as things develop. It is inevitable. Campag 8 speed wheels were not compatible with 9/10 speed stuff and people seemed to manage to survive.

Yep, BUT Campagnolo 8s freehubs are convertible to 9/10/11s. Try that with a 7800/7810 hub when ya want to use a sram cogset.

Yep, drop only 4 cogs now instead of the one at a time for shimano/sram.
Plus very simple levers, with the ability to convert from 10s to 11s and back. Previous levers convertible from 10s to 9s, even 8s.

My opinion, of course but these are measurable things that I think make Campagnolo levers superior to the others.

6700 now comes out with the same 'features' as 7900 with the lack of compatibility. 7900 prices doubled that of 7800. Big rings are $400+, another thing you can measure. 7900 is about $300 less than SuperRecord with no ceramic, little titanium and carbon(and NO I am not saying that stuff is needed in any way but they are more expensive than aluminum and steel).

Campagnolo still can't spell OEM, and their small parts are expensive. Their ability to train bike shops in the way of Campagnolo blows as well.

BUT in my opinion, I think the 2009 design is better than the other 2.

 

[Power13]

Yep, BUT Campagnolo 8s freehubs are convertible to 9/10/11s. Try that with a 7800/7810 hub when ya want to use a sram cogset.

Wait, now you are complaining that Shimano hubs are not compatible with a SRAM cassette? And that is SHIMANO's fault? And if you could show me where a Campag freehub is compatible with a SRAM cassette, that would be great. (Also the conversion you are referring to requires a new axle AND freehub...not a cheap conversion).

Yep, drop only 4 cogs now instead of the one at a time for shimano/sram.
Plus very simple levers, with the ability to convert from 10s to 11s and back. Previous levers convertible from 10s to 9s, even 8s.

How many people do you think really convert their shifters? Damn few....so in other words, you have a feature that almost no one uses....Yippee. And 1998 9 speed Campag levers could NOT be converted to 10 speed.

My opinion, of course but these are measurable things that I think make Campagnolo levers superior to the others.

And to many others those things simply don't matter. An important distinction.

6700 now comes out with the same 'features' as 7900 with the lack of compatibility. 7900 prices doubled that of 7800. Big rings are $400+, another thing you can measure. 7900 is about $300 less than SuperRecord with no ceramic, little titanium and carbon(and NO I am not saying that stuff is needed in any way but they are more expensive than aluminum and steel).

Look, both new groups are ridiculously expensive. NONE of them are worth the $$, IMO. However, all reports are that the CR from Shimano is one of the standout features of the group. Technically, it is a significant development.

Campagnolo still can't spell OEM, and their small parts are expensive. Their ability to train bike shops in the way of Campagnolo blows as well.

BUT in my opinion, I think the 2009 design is better than the other 2.

Agreed re: Campag's shortcomings.

BTW, I apprecaite you attention to the correct spelling of "Campag."

 

[Advancedone]

Pietro, we've talked about this before but I've got to pick you up on a few things.

(I've just noticed that Power 13 has covered some of the points)

Price: currently on Probike, DA7900 is $320 USD cheaper than Record and $580 cheaper than Super Record.

FD trim: Let me promise you a correctly set up DA7900 FD does not need trim. If it does you need a better mechanic.

FD shift: It is widely recognised that the FD shifting on 7900 is the best in the business. The shift can only be described as seamless.

I will agree that the ability to down shift multiple gears on the Campagnolo groups is a bonus. The loss of multiple gear drop with 7900 is a backward step but not a deal breaker.

I love Campagnolo and think while the new levers are as ugly as a Salvadore Dali painting I have no doubt they are functional and comfortable. In the past my biggest complaint about Campag levers was that they were pretty but not very comfortable.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

 

[Pietro]

Wait, now you are complaining that Shimano hubs are not compatible with a SRAM cassette? And that is SHIMANO's fault? And if you could show me where a Campag freehub is compatible with a SRAM cassette, that would be great. (Also the conversion you are referring to requires a new axle AND freehub...not a cheap conversion).

Requires the freehub body only, 'HG' steel freehub body-expensive tho but possible.



How many people do you think really convert their shifters? Damn few....so in other words, you have a feature that almost no one uses....Yippee. And 1998 9 speed Campag levers could NOT be converted to 10 speed.

Many converted 1996 and older to 9s(along with their freehub bodies). More than a few liked the new shape of 1999 and later but wanted to use 8s. At least it was possible.

And to many others those things simply don't matter. An important distinction.

Look, both new groups are ridiculously expensive. NONE of them are worth the $$, IMO. However, all reports are that the CR from Shimano is one of the standout features of the group. Technically, it is a significant development.

'CR'?



Agreed re: Campag's shortcomings.

BTW, I apprecaite you attention to the correct spelling of "Campag."

Yep, not a Euro.

You must be a bike shop guy tho if you knew 1998 levers are not convertible.

 

[Pietro]

Pietro, we've talked about this before but I've got to pick you up on a few things.

(I've just noticed that Power 13 has covered some of the points)

Price: currently on Probike, DA7900 is $320 USD cheaper than Record and $580 cheaper than Super Record.

FD trim: Let me promise you a correctly set up DA7900 FD does not need trim. If it does you need a better mechanic.

FD shift: It is widely recognised that the FD shifting on 7900 is the best in the business. The shift can only be described as seamless.

I will agree that the ability to down shift multiple gears on the Campagnolo groups is a bonus. The loss of multiple gear drop with 7900 is a backward step but not a deal breaker.

I love Campagnolo and think while the new levers are as ugly as a Salvadore Dali painting I have no doubt they are functional and comfortable. In the past my biggest complaint about Campag levers was that they were pretty but not very comfortable.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

-MSRP please, the only way to compare. I have seen SR for less than $2100.

-I rode a 7900 bike and it was set up right and it did rub when cranking i the big ring and last 2 smallest cogs. In addtion, it tickled the inner cage when on small ring, biggest cog, couldn't move any farther out.

-FD shift action-opinion. I have others say Di2 was 'so fast', as if to imply other shifters, from all 3 companies, are slow, innaccurate. None of which is true. Do all get the chain onto the big ring? Under load? Yep, shimano the best, Campagnolo next, sram is pitiful.

-2009 Campagnolo levers look like inverted rayguns but very comfy.

 

[Power13]

Yep, not a Euro.

You must be a bike shop guy tho if you knew 1998 levers are not convertible.

CR = chainring

No, not a bike shop guy. Old industry veteran. I also have a pair of 98 Campag levers that are stuck @ 9 speed.

 

[Advancedone]

-MSRP please, the only way to compare. I have seen SR for less than $2100.

Who pays retail?

-I rode a 7900 bike and it was set up right and it did rub when cranking i the big ring and last 2 smallest cogs. In addtion, it tickled the inner cage when on small ring, biggest cog, couldn't move any farther out.

Not my experience. With the 7900 you need to keep the FD cable loose. Sounds stupid but it almost seems too loose.When it's on the small ring the cable has no tension. Now you'll cross chain to your hearts content with no rub or trimming needed

-FD shift action-opinion. I have others say Di2 was 'so fast', as if to imply other shifters, from all 3 companies, are slow, innaccurate. None of which is true. Do all get the chain onto the big ring? Under load? Yep, shimano the best, Campagnolo next, sram is pitiful.

Yes Shimano FD shifting is best. We both agree on that.

-2009 Campagnolo levers look like inverted rayguns but very comfy.

The lever shape has grown on me and I might even have to give Campy a try again.

 

[davejey]

red

sram red seems to be the best group set around at the mo, and as a fan of team saxo bank, fill they should have the best gropu set.
i like the way u can adjust, the brake abd gear shifts up and down to suit the ride, i not overly tech minded but, i do known whats good

 

[cyclingtyger]

Here is the squawk that I heard: Saxo Bank riders hated the new 7900 (like everyone who rides it- 7800 was way better, almost perfect!). Riis told Shimano that they wanted to switch back to 7800, or they would switch to SRAM. Shimano thought he was bluffing, insisted that they continue to use 7900 per their contract, then he went through with his threat and made the switch. The new 7900 stuff really sucks, especially when you mix and match with different cranks like Saxo does. (my team is using it this year too). This news came from a rider on the team. A rider on Cervelo told me that they all started the year on 7900 stuff, but everyone hated it, so they almost all switched back to 7800. They had the freedom to switch back, unlike Saxo. Shimano needs to get its act together- at the time when there is the most competition, they are going backwards... This sucks because I've been a longtime fan of their stuff...

 

[cody251]

I'm sure Fabian Cancellara is stoked about the awesome new SRAM Red chains!

 

[philcrisp]

Don't Sram own Zipp?

 

[franarchy]

Bet cancellara regrets changing groupsets before a big race.

 

[lookkg386]

I'm sure Fabian Cancellara is stoked about the awesome new SRAM Red chains!

LOL, wonder if he wanted to tighten it around his neck, must be dissapointed. Was this it's first outing on Saxo?

 

[alexwallace]

So who made the chain that broke on Cancellara's bike in yesterday's Ronde?
I guess he didn't go back to get it just for a souvenir.

 

[mwbyrd]

SRAM is really good, super-light, robust and "ergo". But Bjarne would only change for money, lots of money.
And, it's true that SexyBank had always been a team that went their own way, equipment-wise, but they went to Cervelo and their gear partners last year and asked for three time more money than before, (thinking that they were worth it now that they had won the Tour). Specialized happily ponied up and Cervelo et. al. put their sponsor monies together into their own team, which has proven to be a really good decision.
And lastly, some teams have struggled to get on terms with DuraAce 7900. I saw a lot of torn off rear derrs and chain issues this year. If you are running this stuff, please,please set the chain length correctly and install the complex joining link as instructed. ( And the Campy 11 folks, you too have to use the proper new tool, and follow the very specific instructions, or you will face plant too ).
Pay attention to mechanical issues in the races, most of he time, it's the quality of the mechanics, but a pattern emerges eventually, pointing out weaknesses. ( Back in the day, CSC would glue up new Zipps every race, 'cause the tubular rims weren't holding up. They fixed that by making them heavier two years ago)

There's a work around to installing a Record 11 chain. There's a link on weight weenies somewhere. Basically, you just have to create a chain tool that blocks the installation pin from being pushed out the back when peening the installation pin.

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/download.php?id=29697

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/f...=asc&highlight=record++chain+install&start=30

 

[columbus max]

Here is the squawk that I heard: Saxo Bank riders hated the new 7900 (like everyone who rides it- 7800 was way better, almost perfect!). Riis told Shimano that they wanted to switch back to 7800, or they would switch to SRAM. Shimano thought he was bluffing, insisted that they continue to use 7900 per their contract, then he went through with his threat and made the switch. The new 7900 stuff really sucks, especially when you mix and match with different cranks like Saxo does. (my team is using it this year too). This news came from a rider on the team. A rider on Cervelo told me that they all started the year on 7900 stuff, but everyone hated it, so they almost all switched back to 7800. They had the freedom to switch back, unlike Saxo. Shimano needs to get its act together- at the time when there is the most competition, they are going backwards... This sucks because I've been a longtime fan of their stuff...

Actually, Saxo (and previously CSC) didn't have a contract with Shimano as suggeted above. They bought 7800 groupsets themselves. This allowed them to use FSA and Zipp equipment (their sponsors). Here is a link regarding that:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2008/tour08/tech/probike.php?id=/tech/2008/probikes/andy_schleck_csc_cervelo_r3sl

The reason for Cevelo test team switching from 7900 back to 7800 was not because "they hated it" (i.e. hated 7900) but because it wouldn't work with Q rotor chainrings who are a team sponsor. Shimano are not a sponsor as you can see on the team website:

http://www.cervelo.com/content.aspx?t=TestTeam&i=Partners