How To Say my name! Pronunciation thread

[AmRacer]

I have yet to read a valid argument

That's your opinion, which arguments you see as valid.

 

[hrotha]

Last names* were not created to determine lineage - that's what patronyms were for, and in most of Western Europe last names effectively came to supplant them. Last names are about identifying individuals and families/households in a large enough community, a purpose that is accomplished just as well whether or not a particular last name changes through time

*In the sense we're using here, i.e. as identifiers for the general population adopted at various points between the late Middle Ages and the modern period, not just as dynastic names for a few families that happened to be noble houses

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Mods... admins... can we have that eye-roll reaction yet?

Yes please.

 

[bNator]

There would first have to be an actual argument in order to lose it. I have yet to read a valid argument. Language matters, pronunciation matters, names matter. The core concept of names is to identify people and to determine lineage, over time and regardless of location. In most countries you inherit your surname from your father. This is... wait for it... the same name. Not "almost" the same name or "close enough". The same. Whether you inherit your name from your father, your mother or both doesn't change the concept.
When you move from one country to another, your name nor its pronunciation changes. Subsequently your name also shouldn't change when you have children, because they inherit your name(s). And so on. Whether you, your children or your environment are incapable of pronouncing your own name does not change your name, it simply means it is being mispronounced. My accent, potential speech impediment or lack of interest do not change my name.
The fact that names aren't supposed to change further shows from its spelling which remains consistent throughout centuries. And no, lazy officials who are unwilling to type an accent or letter that is not on their keyboard by default are not an argument.
If names were supposed to change and don't really matter, then we would all be allowed to pick a surname for our children just like we pick a first name.

And while I agree that language evolves, that should not be an alibi to not even try and pronounce it to the best of our abilities and yes, some times that requires just a little bit of effort.

You are stating you opinion which is fine but counts very little when on the other side, you have rules (not suggestions or guidelines. Rules) which specify how a foreign first name or family name should be pronounced in a country of residence. These vary by country but more often than not, these rules specify the pronounciation is simplified adapted to local “sound and feel”. I’m not sure about USA but it could very well be Jorgenson should be pronounced as you can hear it on tv. So unless you can present a clear evidence to the contrary, you have no argument either.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

There would first have to be an actual argument in order to lose it. I have yet to read a valid argument. Language matters, pronunciation matters, names matter. The core concept of names is to identify people and to determine lineage, over time and regardless of location. In most countries you inherit your surname from your father. This is... wait for it... the same name. Not "almost" the same name or "close enough". The same. Whether you inherit your name from your father, your mother or both doesn't change the concept.
When you move from one country to another, your name nor its pronunciation changes. Subsequently your name also shouldn't change when you have children, because they inherit your name(s). And so on. Whether you, your children or your environment are incapable of pronouncing your own name does not change your name, it simply means it is being mispronounced. My accent, potential speech impediment or lack of interest do not change my name.
The fact that names aren't supposed to change further shows from its spelling which remains consistent throughout centuries. And no, lazy officials who are unwilling to type an accent or letter that is not on their keyboard by default are not an argument.
If names were supposed to change and don't really matter, then we would all be allowed to pick a surname for our children just like we pick a first name.

And while I agree that language evolves, that should not be an alibi to not even try and pronounce it to the best of our abilities and yes, some times that requires just a little bit of effort.

So why did you apply a totally different standard to an Irish name? When I presented you with an example of a name that changed pronunciation, and subsequently spelling, for the benefit of people whose language found those sounds unfamiliar, you said it wasn't the same name. And you never explained whether people in Australia and the US "ought" to imitate a Galway accent to say it or not?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

So why did you apply a totally different standard to an Irish name?

I did no such thing.

You are stating you opinion which is fine but counts very little when on the other side, you have rules (not suggestions or guidelines. Rules) which specify how a foreign first name or family name should be pronounced in a country of residence. These vary by country but more often than not, these rules specify the pronounciation is simplified adapted to local “sound and feel”. I’m not sure about USA but it could very well be Jorgenson should be pronounced as you can hear it on tv. So unless you can present a clear evidence to the contrary, you have no argument either.

I think the onus is on you here. Please show me these rules/laws.

 

[bNator]

I think the onus is on you here. Please show me these rules/laws.

Are you kidding me? You really don’t know there are rules for that? Ok here, one small sample for putting accent for foreign names in Slovenian:

Jezikovna svetovalnica | ISJFR ZRC SAZU

Slovenjenje naglasa pri enakopisnih imenih iz slovanskih jezikov | Prosim, velja pravilo v odgovoru »Naglas moških imen 'Andrej', 'Jernej' in 'Matej'« za hrvaška, južnoslovanska, slovanska ali vsakršna imena?

svetovalnica.zrc-sazu.si

I trust you can dig out Flemish rules for yourself…

 

[RedheadDane]

Are you kidding me? You really don’t know there are rules for that?

It doesn't really matter if there are rules for it or not, and I'm pretty sure some places there are no such rules.
There are also no rules stating that the pronunciation of a name can never change.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Are you kidding me? You really don’t know there are rules for that? Ok here, one small sample for putting accent for foreign names in Slovenian:

Jezikovna svetovalnica | ISJFR ZRC SAZU

Slovenjenje naglasa pri enakopisnih imenih iz slovanskih jezikov | Prosim, velja pravilo v odgovoru »Naglas moških imen 'Andrej', 'Jernej' in 'Matej'« za hrvaška, južnoslovanska, slovanska ali vsakršna imena?

svetovalnica.zrc-sazu.si

I trust you can dig out Flemish rules for yourself…

My dear fellow, we were talking about surnames. Yes, there are rules for chosen names, first names. You can't just name your child whatever you want. But this has zero relevance to the issue at hand.

So why did you apply a totally different standard to an Irish name? When I presented you with an example of a name that changed pronunciation, and subsequently spelling, for the benefit of people whose language found those sounds unfamiliar, you said it wasn't the same name. And you never explained whether people in Australia and the US "ought" to imitate a Galway accent to say it or not?

You realise Martin is not an "Irish" name, don't you? Martin, Martino, Martine, Martijn, Maarten... are all related to the name of Mars, god of war. As in... Latin. Which was the point i was making earlier. The Romans happened to be a curious bunch who ro(a)med the entire continent. I doubt you can prove that the Irish Martin is the origin of the Spanish Martin or the French Martin.

 

[AmRacer]

My dear fellow, we were talking about surnames. Yes, there are rules for chosen names, first names. You can't just name your child whatever you want. But this has zero relevance to the issue at hand.


You realise Martin is not an "Irish" name, don't you? Martin, Martino, Martine, Martijn, Maarten... are all related to the name of Mars, god of war. As in... Latin. Which was the point i was making earlier. The Romans happened to be a curious bunch who ro(a)med the entire continent. I doubt you can prove that the Irish Martin is the origin of the Spanish Martin or the French Martin.

That's your biased opinion.

 

[Monte Serra]

@Logic-is-your-friend Do you also believe Lotte Kopecky's surname should be pronounced identical to Julia Kopecky's surname? Julia pronounces her surname in the beginning of the clip below:

View: https://youtu.be/OVMzctDzyKo?si=beYf6r3Wioos2IcW

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

You realise Martin is not an "Irish" name, don't you? Martin, Martino, Martine, Martijn, Maarten... are all related to the name of Mars, god of war. As in... Latin. Which was the point i was making earlier. The Romans happened to be a curious bunch who ro(a)med the entire continent. I doubt you can prove that the Irish Martin is the origin of the Spanish Martin or the French Martin.

erm, I was talking about O'Connor...

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

@Logic-is-your-friend Do you also believe Lotte Kopecky's surname should be pronounced identical to Julia Kopecky's surname? Julia pronounces her surname in the beginning of the clip below:

View: https://youtu.be/OVMzctDzyKo?si=beYf6r3Wioos2IcW

Assuming she herself pronounces the name correctly, yes.

erm, I was talking about O'Connor...

Erm, i never said anything about O'Connor so why did you make the assumption i did?

 

[rallybanana]

@Logic-is-your-friend Do you also believe Lotte Kopecky's surname should be pronounced identical to Julia Kopecky's surname? Julia pronounces her surname in the beginning of the clip below:

They're both wrong. Should be pronounced Kopecká.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Erm, i never said anything about O'Connor so why did you make the assumption i did?

erm, you did:

No because that was never the name.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

You realise Martin is not an "Irish" name, don't you? Martin, Martino, Martine, Martijn, Maarten... are all related to the name of Mars, god of war. As in... Latin. Which was the point i was making earlier. The Romans happened to be a curious bunch who ro(a)med the entire continent. I doubt you can prove that the Irish Martin is the origin of the Spanish Martin or the French Martin.

At risk of bringing the conversation back to cycling, Dan Martin's surname comes from his English father, so although the surname is found in Ireland (indeed, I have relatives of that name), that was never under discussion here as an "Irish name".

 

[theyoungest]

And while I agree that language evolves, that should not be an alibi to not even try and pronounce it to the best of our abilities and yes, some times that requires just a little bit of effort.

Your say your surname is originally French, but who tells you the original bearer of that name pronounced it the same way you do? Do you have any recordings? Your arguments simply don't stand the test of any logical or linguistic scrutiny.

Julia Kopecky pronounces her name the Czech way for a Czech audience. Probably similarly she pronounces her name the Dutch way in the Netherlands, like Lotte Kopecky does in Flanders. She is after all a Dutch woman of Czech descent. Names evolve, pronunciation evolves, and pronunciation changes depending on where you are.

Lots of pronunciations in English make no sense based on the spelling. But the English language incorporates words from all over the place and Anglicizes them. Similarly in Flemish lots of French loan words are actually "Dutchified", which the Dutch do not do. That's why we pronounce "record" the French way and you don't. I don't know why this should be acceptable for all of your vocabulary but not for names.

 

[Hugh Januss]

New rule: The correct way to pronounce anyone's name is how it sounds when you ask them their name.

 

[RedheadDane]

New rule: The correct way to pronounce anyone's name is how it sounds when you ask them their name.

But you see? Some people have a speech impediment.
Such as not being able to speak a random foreign language...

 

[Hugh Januss]

But you see? Some people have a speech impediment.
Such as not being able to speak a random foreign language...

Obviously, accents will tend to butcher names, witness the names that touched off this particular controversy. It's probably enough to just try, within the limits of your own native tongue.

 

[bNator]

New rule: The correct way to pronounce anyone's name is how it sounds when you ask them their name.

Wonderful idea. Let’s not pronounce anybody’s name then before we hear them pronounce it themselves first… will work beautifully

 

[laarsland]

Shaping up to be a loooooooong off season, this.

 

[laarsland]

I’ll let y’all know that I gregariously pronounce my surname of Aarsland in the native Norwegian manner when going abroad.