Schleck Wasn't Shifting

[MacRoadie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP9OR-Pz2Yk

Perfect view, head on with both hands clearly visible. Go to 00:45. Both hands on the hoods, no fingers on either lever. They only move (very clearly) at 00:47, AFTER the chain slips.

He wasn't shifting.

ETA: Saxo uses SRAM Red, so you'd see his fingers move to the lever to drop down a cog.

 

[Big GMaC]

Mac, I am sorry, but I am sorry but I am going to have to disagree.

I have watched it in 1080 HD in super slow motion and it you look closely at his finger on the right hand he is shifting into a bigger gear (smaller cog, more cross chaining) with his index finger.

Have you used the SRAM shifters? If not I am sure you know how the DoubleTap thing works, to shift up you barely need to move it to shift up, hence you can shift really easily in the drops just with a small pivot and from this angle it makes it difficult to see any movement of the shifter. It does move, it is a very small range of motion though, and this video is not clear enough

 

[Publicus]

I can't see the video, but I assume what you say is an accurate description. I'm not sure that changes anything. AC (or any other rider) has no idea why Andy slowed or threw his chain. Is the expectation that he goes from full flight to full stop to figure out what Andy was doing or what happened to his equipment? I'm not trying to be flippant. We've spent the better part of 9 hours debating and discussing and no one can agree on the facts, let alone the appropriate or non-controversial response. Is it reasonable to think AC could make that determination in a matter of seconds under the circumstances?

 

[MacRoadie]

Mac, I am sorry, but I am sorry but I am going to have to disagree.

I have watched it in 1080 HD in super slow motion and it you look closely at his finger on the right hand he is shifting into a bigger gear (smaller cog, more cross chaining) with his index finger.

Have you used the SRAM shifters? If not I am sure you know how the DoubleTap thing works, to shift up you barely need to move it to shift up, hence you can shift really easily in the drops just with a small pivot and from this angle it makes it difficult to see any movement of the shifter. It does move, it is a very small range of motion though, and this video is not clear enough

I have used it extensively. I had a demo bike to thrash around on for about 4 months when the Red groupo was first introduced. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I've looked at it too on high-def and I don't see any movement further than the normal rotation of the hand around the hood as the body rocks.

Also, have you EVER seen a chain skip under tension when shifting DOWN on the cassette? Up would be a big maybe, but never down. If you watch his first attempt to get the chain on (before he dismounts), the chain is obviously off between the small ring and the BB that's also counter-intuitive as once in a blue moon you drop it off the small ring shifting UP to the big cog, but I've never seen a chain drop when shifting down the cassette. As you said, the cross-chaining is greater and should actually keep the chain from slipping off the inside of the small ring.

I suppose in an extreme case, if the alignment is bad, you might catch the chain on one of the side ramps on the big ring and get some slip that way, but a 10-speed chain should be adjusted enough to get that small-small combination without any chatter.

 

[Big GMaC]

I have used it extensively. I had a demo bike to thrash around on for about 4 months when the Red groupo was first introduced. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I've looked at it too on high-def and I don't see any movement further than the normal rotation of the hand around the hood as the body rocks.

Ok, this is the best video I can find.

Circled, finger doing the shift

Line 1, Brake
Line 2, Other Brake (Control i.e. normal)

Arrow point at other 'Yellow Bit'

From Shifter.

I think that is him shifting. Otherwise I see no reason to throw the chain. I know SRAM chains have snapped, but thrown? I have only thrown mine once and that was messing up a shift (Horribly... )

 

[Steel4Ever]

He is so shifting.
It's chain-jamming obvious.

 

[Big GMaC]

I suppose in an extreme case, if the alignment is bad, you might catch the chain on one of the side ramps on the big ring and get some slip that way, but a 10-speed chain should be adjusted enough to get that small-small combination without any chatter.

I can get 53/26 no problem, but when in the 39 I really don't like going to 11 and 12 as it starts to really rattle. I have SRAM Force only so that could be why, but it is regularly adjusted and oiled by my shop so...

I think that freeze frame is pretty daming

 

[Anonymous]

Who cares?

He was in a small - small combination, over-torqued the chain and threw it.

He launched the attack from the front, in the meat of the race, when Contador had gone back ( opportunism?)........

He launched the attack, it failed, he pays the price.


That's racing.

Good for Alberto.

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

You also can determine the moment of the shift in side view by watching the position of the rear derailleur cage. If he's not shifting, that cage shouldn't be moving. But it does. It looks like he upshifts, then something snags in the rear cluster (maybe the chain drops off onto dropout?). The lower chain line shows a bit of slack as he's torquing the rear wheel off the ground so at that moment the gear cluster definitely is locked up tight. When the wheel comes back down, he's derailed in the front. Not only was he shifting, I think he was trying a double-shift (at a very inopportune moment).

 

[bobs nob]

I can't see the video, but I assume what you say is an accurate description. I'm not sure that changes anything. AC (or any other rider) has no idea why Andy slowed or threw his chain. Is the expectation that he goes from full flight to full stop to figure out what Andy was doing or what happened to his equipment? I'm not trying to be flippant. We've spent the better part of 9 hours debating and discussing and no one can agree on the facts, let alone the appropriate or non-controversial response. Is it reasonable to think AC could make that determination in a matter of seconds under the circumstances?

The video is in 360p and to me appears inconclusive. I can't tell.

I think this whole episode informs us about why 'we' are 'here' and 'they' are 'there'. Even Bruyneel and Riis agree that regardless of why whatever happened happened a professional competitor DOES NOT stop for this type of thing when the entire tour is hanging in the balance. To do so would have been sheer madness.

But those who sit in a comfortable chair can watch the video frame by frame to buttress their argument. (I don't mean you macroadie, I mean all of 'us'.) No one had any time to think about it. I imagine if something so egregious had taken place, the offenders would have faced a sanction by the officials. These guys are trained to win and born to win.

" They don't ask how, they ask how many." I wish I could find out who first said that. Bottom line, go out and win, we'll sort everything else out later.

It's unfortunate for Andy. We will be able to argue what happened and what it meant for years to come. I really can't imagine why other than a shift that happened, but I don't ride SRAM. But that has nothing to do with what those in the race had to decide to do in a fraction of a second. Of all the times I have ever thrown my chain while moving, I have never had much difficulty getting it back on without dismounting. It certainly struck me as beyond amateurish to get off the bike for that.

 

[hfer07]

You also can determine the moment of the shift in side view by watching the position of the rear derailleur cage. If he's not shifting, that cage shouldn't be moving. But it does. It looks like he upshifts, then something snags in the rear cluster (maybe the chain drops off onto dropout?). The lower chain line shows a bit of slack as he's torquing the rear wheel off the ground so at that moment the gear cluster definitely is locked up tight. When the wheel comes back down, he's derailed in the front. Not only was he shifting, I think he was trying a double-shift (at a very inopportune moment).

+10

He was double-shifting indeed

 

[Bicicleta]

Is it reasonable to think AC could make that determination in a matter of seconds under the circumstances?

His teammate, Vino, did.

 

[BroDeal]

His teammate, Vino, did.

Vino was marking Shrek. He was looking back at times to see where Contador was. As soon as he drew even with Andy, he was not going to continue on, setting pace for Schleck; so it is hard to know what he was doing as he slowed down.

 

[ricara]

I Say it Was That SRAM Gruppo at Fault

SRAM introduced their Red gruppo to try and compete with Campy and Shimano. Spent a zillion dollars on a clever ad campaign with a red lizard.

What they don't tell you is that the stuff is made in China. Not in Italy like Campy, nor in Japan like Dura-Ace, but China.

The whole idea is to make a bunch of money by selling lower quality goods at premium prices. I have a bunch of friends with SRAM and they all say the same thing -- after one season it's all worn out. It doesn't surprise me that Andy had problems with his SRAM gruppo. Still 175 riders in the Tour, thousands of shifts today, but only one guy dropped his chain -- and he was riding SRAM. Not good.

 

[Big GMaC]

sooo.....

 

[MacRoadie]

sooo.....

So not only was he shifting, we was shifting up...and on an attack...

 

[ricara]

Thanks for the nice still shot GMac. Clearly Andy was shifting. I don't think there can be any question about that.

Help me out here. My bikes all still have downtube shifters. I assume that the right lever still controls the rear derailleur, yes? So when he pushes the shift lever in that far on an SRAM gruppo, what does that mean as far as the shift? Is it shifting up or down, and is it going one gear at a time or can you go two?

I'm not sure that any of this matters, because I still don't think that the chain should have dropped just because he was shifting. I'm not a fan of SRAM.

I remember in the early '80s when Fignon was on a solo breakaway. He was powering away on the flats and stood up for few pedal strokes to boost his speed. Then his (titanium) Campy Super Record bottom bracket spindle snapped in half. The crank fell off completely and Fignon fell hard on the side of the road.

His team manager was pi$$ed and dumped Campy like a hot potato, mid-season as I recall. I think it was a French team and they switched to the then-new Mavic gruppos. (Feel free to correct any errors.)

If I were Bjarne Riis, I would be dumping SRAM right about now....

 

[Road Hazard]

sooo.....

Hm, I ride SRAM Force and I'd have to agree that looks like an upshift "sweep" not a downshift "click" on the rear derailleur. Whether that was the exact moment of the de-chaining event, I'll take your word.

Incidentally, I've never thrown the chain off the small ring towards the bottom bracket. I have thrown it clear off the big ring on the outside (very irritating).

After following bike racing for no more than a year, admittedly, I get the feeling that in certain situations, you can't win for losing, and can't win for winning.

 

[Publicus]

sooo.....

Just watched it on Versus . . . he was shifting. Your photo just confirms it.

 

[MacRoadie]

Thanks for the nice still shot GMac. Clearly Andy was shifting. I don't think there can be any question about that.

Help me out here. My bikes all still have downtube shifters. I assume that the right lever still controls the rear derailleur, yes? So when he pushes the shift lever in that far on an SRAM gruppo, what does that mean as far as the shift? Is it shifting up or down, and is it going one gear at a time or can you go two?

I'm not sure that any of this matters, because I still don't think that the chain should have dropped just because he was shifting. I'm not a fan of SRAM.

Right is still rear (thankfully some things never change). Pushing the lever that far over shifts up on the rear (bigger cog). You only have to move it over a fraction to downshift. That's another curious factoid in the whole matter.

 

[The mechanical attack]

Just watched it on Versus . . . he was shifting. Your photo just confirms it.

But how do you know he wasn't shifting to try and get the chain back on? Usually you can do that.

And while I'm here, why do people not ask you if you are paid by Contador or his team to do PR for them?

There has never been a recorded case of you disagreeing or criticising anything that AC has ever done, but strangely the same people who troll others by asserting they are paid, never troll you with that allegation.

Would you welcome that line of argument being used to counter your points?

 

[Publicus]

But how do you know he wasn't shifting to try and get the chain back on? Usually you can do that.

And while I'm here, why do people not ask you if you are paid by Contador or his team to do PR for them?

There has never been a recorded case of you disagreeing or criticising anything that AC has ever done, but strangely the same people who troll others by asserting they are paid, never troll you with that allegation.

Would you welcome that line of argument being used to counter your points?

Because I was watching it when he did it. But as I said before, I have the benefit of video, etc. AC was chasing Andy to close down his attack when Andy threw his chain (regardless of why he did it). He didn't attack BECAUSE he threw his chain. I think that's the most important here.

He flies past Andy, along with the other contenders. Andy could have been going much sooner and probably gotten back on (he was only 13 seconds down at the summit, and it seem like he d1cked around for quite a bit trying to get it on). But that's neither here nor there. What happened is what happened.

EDIT: I didn't even see that ad hominem attack. Relax BPC. I didn't realize it was you, if I had, I wouldn't have bothered responding.

 

[Road Hazard]

But how do you know he wasn't shifting to try and get the chain back on? Usually you can do that.

And while I'm here, why do people not ask you if you are paid by Contador or his team to do PR for them?

There has never been a recorded case of you disagreeing or criticising anything that AC has ever done, but strangely the same people who troll others by asserting they are paid, never troll you with that allegation.

Would you welcome that line of argument being used to counter your points?

Wow, the "paid intern" or "public relations rep" accusations are unreal on these forums.

But just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

 

[MacRoadie]

Originally Posted by The mechanical attack
But how do you know he wasn't shifting to try and get the chain back on? Usually you can do that.

Um, cause that's the wrong lever?

Ride much?

 

[BroDeal]

Wow, the "paid intern" or "public relations rep" accusations are unreal on these forums.

But just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

You are responding to BPC's newest username. He has been banned eighty or so times. Whether he is paid by Public Strategies or crazy as a sh!thouse rat is hard to determine.