Teams & Riders Sepp Kuss is the next Sepp Kuss thread

[Libertine Seguros]

"Botched" My point is that people are yelling at JV for being too good. My assertion is that we should be yelling at other teams for not being good enough.

Should NFL fans be mad at KC for being the best team over the last five years? I'm disgusted with the teams who suck year in and year out.

Yea, those losers at Euskaltel doing bad TTTs. Why don't they just practice?

 

[Red Rick]

I think the problem is that they didn't do one or the other until too late on. Had they decided they were riding for Sepp from earlier on the proviso that "we let the road decide, and because he's in the red jersey he gets priority", then it probably wouldn't have been met with the derision it has.

Had they gone full on 'let them race, we've got the podium locked up, let them duke it out on the road', then while it might have upset certain vocal portions of the twitterverse (being stirred up by members of the Anglophone cycling media), whoever won the race would be clearly the best rider in the race.

As it is, however, they've kind of half-assed it, so it's just ended up exposing that at least Vingegaard, if not also Roglič could have passed Kuss easily if they hadn't had their wings clipped, while simultaneously delivering an unsatisfactorily tame racing conclusion. They tempted us with some fratricidal battles, only to swerve us Fingerpoke Of Doom style into a lame love-in.

It's quite remarkable really, the team has somehow managed to completely dominate the race, taking five mountain stages across the three riders and locking out the podium, and somehow come out of this with a scenario where everybody looks weak in some way. Kuss looks like a lame duck champion who could easily have been passed by his teammates; Vingegaard and Roglič look like poor team players who were neither loyal enough to support their teammate nor strong enough to take command, and the team management look weak either way because either they told the team to ride for Kuss and were too weak to control their riders on the road, or they told the team to fight it out on the road and then flip-flopped in the face of negative comments on social media.

It looks to me they never made any big decision about racing against each outher until stage 16 or 17, like they were still just taking it day by day.

 

[VeloMaster]

Yes, my stuffed tiger. Kinda disappointing I have to explain the reference there but since I whiffed on the joke comparing me to Bobcat Goldthwait yesterday, I guess I can be a bit more forgiving on that front.

I so miss Calvin and Hobbes. Thanks for the memory.

 

[jmdirt]

Yea, those losers at Euskaltel doing bad TTTs. Why don't they just practice?

OK, never mind...

 

[jmdirt]

No one should have yelled at Armstrong, but at Ullrich instead?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

OK, never mind...

It seems like you're going for an equivalent to that economics argument that seeing somebody richer than you will make you work harder because you strive to be as rich as them.

 

[jmdirt]

It seems like you're going for an equivalent to that economics argument that seeing somebody richer than you will make you work harder because you strive to be as rich as them.

It seems like you are being disingenuous instead of having a real conversation.

EDIT: and no I'm not saying that because its absurd.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

It seems like you are being disingenuous instead of having a real conversation.

Well, OK, what is your argument then? Because it looks an awful lot like you're basically saying we should be angry with other teams for not being physiologically elite enough.

Which, when Mikel Landa, Wout Poels, João Almeida, Cian Uijtdebroecks and Santiago Buitrago are all within the top 16 times ever recorded on Angliru on Wednesday, seems like actually they are performing at an absolutely elite level that would have stomped the opposition in almost any year bar 2000, but Jumbo are still a level above even that. How much room for improvement does the rest of the péloton realistically have?

Now, if there's a critique of the tactics of Bahrain, UAE and Movistar that you feel has artificially inflated the dominance of Jumbo, I'm all ears, because there has been some absolutely braindead racing by all three at times this Vuelta.

I do believe Netserk's example of Armstrong and Ullrich doesn't really work because in Ullrich's case certainly his dedication could be called into question, his various off-bike troubles and his off-season weight issues did mean that you could argue, well, if he was as dedicated as Armstrong was then maybe he could have performed at that level. But here I don't think we can because we're not talking dominating a single race, we're talking about dominating the whole calendar.

 

[Netserk]

I do believe Netserk's example of Armstrong and Ullrich doesn't really work because in Ullrich's case certainly his dedication could be called into question, his various off-bike troubles and his off-season weight issues did mean that you could argue, well, if he was as dedicated as Armstrong was then maybe he could have performed at that level. But here I don't think we can because we're not talking dominating a single race, we're talking about dominating the whole calendar.

Alternatively then, you can phrase it as instead of being mad at how dominant Armstrong was and how that ruined the Tour (for some), people should have yelled at the French teams who couldn't muster any fight.

 

[Extinction]

The problem is clearly with the team road management for the Vuelta. If Kuss took time and only one other JV guy made it to the podium in support would that have been more palatable?
This race put an end to JV loading up like this for the future. Of course you're free to unload on QS when they bring an overwhelmingly stronger team to a single day race.

I would say that investments count more than anything else, so the risk is that money now can decide everything and thus kill the sport .

 

[Rackham]

I didn't know where to post this so I'll post it here: Niermann (Jumbo DS) says they expected the opposition to be better (in particular Ayuso & Mas at 4 minutes)

Grischa Niermann over dominantie Jumbo-Visma: "Hadden op meer tegenstand gerekend"

Grischa Niermann bevond zich afgelopen week in het oog van de storm. De ploegleider van Jumbo-Visma had de moeilijke taak op zich om de strategie van Jumbo-Visma te bepalen. Dat bleek geen sinecure, want er ontstond veel commotie toen rode trui Sepp Kuss werd gelost door zijn ploeggenoten op de...

www.wielerflits.nl

It sort of confirms they underestimated Roglič. I mean think about it, i.e. remove the TdF guys from the race (Vinge & Kuss), we'd have seen Rog putting 1 minute 40 into Ayuso & Mas on the Angliru. It would have been a massacre in GC.

They came to this race desperate to get 3 GT wins in one season & it turned into total overkill where their leaders stepped on each other & caused a media sh*tstorm when it was all handled poorly by management.

 

[Red Rick]

I'm just trying to imagine the shitstorm that would happen in the Evenepoel thread if Libertines Kussade was against Remco

 

[Ripper]

I think the problem is that they didn't do one or the other until too late on. Had they decided they were riding for Sepp from earlier on the proviso that "we let the road decide, and because he's in the red jersey he gets priority", then it probably wouldn't have been met with the derision it has.

Had they gone full on 'let them race, we've got the podium locked up, let them duke it out on the road', then while it might have upset certain vocal portions of the twitterverse (being stirred up by members of the Anglophone cycling media), whoever won the race would be clearly the best rider in the race.

As it is, however, they've kind of half-assed it, so it's just ended up exposing that at least Vingegaard, if not also Roglič could have passed Kuss easily if they hadn't had their wings clipped, while simultaneously delivering an unsatisfactorily tame racing conclusion. They tempted us with some fratricidal battles, only to swerve us Fingerpoke Of Doom style into a lame love-in.

It's quite remarkable really, the team has somehow managed to completely dominate the race, taking five mountain stages across the three riders and locking out the podium, and somehow come out of this with a scenario where everybody looks weak in some way. Kuss looks like a lame duck champion who could easily have been passed by his teammates; Vingegaard and Roglič look like poor team players who were neither loyal enough to support their teammate nor strong enough to take command, and the team management look weak either way because either they told the team to ride for Kuss and were too weak to control their riders on the road, or they told the team to fight it out on the road and then flip-flopped in the face of negative comments on social media.

💯

 

[Ripper]

I didn't know where to post this so I'll post it here: Niermann (Jumbo DS) says they expected the opposition to be better (in particular Ayuso & Mas at 4 minutes)

Grischa Niermann over dominantie Jumbo-Visma: "Hadden op meer tegenstand gerekend"

Grischa Niermann bevond zich afgelopen week in het oog van de storm. De ploegleider van Jumbo-Visma had de moeilijke taak op zich om de strategie van Jumbo-Visma te bepalen. Dat bleek geen sinecure, want er ontstond veel commotie toen rode trui Sepp Kuss werd gelost door zijn ploeggenoten op de...

www.wielerflits.nl

It sort of confirms they underestimated Roglič. I mean think about it, i.e. remove the TdF guys from the race (Vinge & Kuss), we'd have seen Rog putting 1 minute 40 into Ayuso & Mas on the Angliru. It would have been a massacre in GC.

They came to this race desperate to get 3 GT wins in one season & it turned into total overkill where their leaders stepped on each other & caused a media sh*tstorm when it was all handled poorly by management.

Niermann is utterly and completely full of s***, so I would take what he says with a pinch of salt. If anything, I would say they underestimated Jonas and Sepp, and team management had no real plan on how to deal with this until after the sh*tstorm started

 

[Red Rick]

Niermann is utterly and completely full of s***, so I would take what he says with a pinch of salt. If anything, I would say they underestimated Jonas and Sepp, and team management had no real plan on how to deal with this until after the sh*tstorm started

Lol do you really think they thought Sepp Kuss in his 3rd GT would be beating Ayuso and Evenepoel?

Probably they thought they might 1-2, and in a 1-2 Roglic and Vingegaard fighting each other would have been able to happen.

 

[jmdirt]

Niermann is utterly and completely full of s***, so I would take what he says with a pinch of salt. If anything, I would say they underestimated Jonas and Sepp, and team management had no real plan on how to deal with this until after the sh*tstorm started

It would be expected to 'underestimate' Sepp since his legs have a lot of hours on them this season so that's not really an error on their part. They had to have some idea though that JV might be pretty good, and obviously Rog was targeting this race. I'm all for having multiple plans, but they also must have a flow chart for every scenario, IMO.

 

[Red Rick]

The fact that Kuss was pulling the GC group on Arinsal alone shows that Jumbo weren't going for Kuss GC from the start.

 

[Red Lobster]

I think the problem is that they didn't do one or the other until too late on. Had they decided they were riding for Sepp from earlier on the proviso that "we let the road decide, and because he's in the red jersey he gets priority", then it probably wouldn't have been met with the derision it has.

Had they gone full on 'let them race, we've got the podium locked up, let them duke it out on the road', then while it might have upset certain vocal portions of the twitterverse (being stirred up by members of the Anglophone cycling media), whoever won the race would be clearly the best rider in the race.

As it is, however, they've kind of half-assed it, so it's just ended up exposing that at least Vingegaard, if not also Roglič could have passed Kuss easily if they hadn't had their wings clipped, while simultaneously delivering an unsatisfactorily tame racing conclusion. They tempted us with some fratricidal battles, only to swerve us Fingerpoke Of Doom style into a lame love-in.

It's quite remarkable really, the team has somehow managed to completely dominate the race, taking five mountain stages across the three riders and locking out the podium, and somehow come out of this with a scenario where everybody looks weak in some way. Kuss looks like a lame duck champion who could easily have been passed by his teammates; Vingegaard and Roglič look like poor team players who were neither loyal enough to support their teammate nor strong enough to take command, and the team management look weak either way because either they told the team to ride for Kuss and were too weak to control their riders on the road, or they told the team to fight it out on the road and then flip-flopped in the face of negative comments on social media.

In general I agree but I also think that once the Kuss situation manifested, there just wasn't going to be a clean exit.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Look, no matter how this played out, people would complain. There's really no good solution IMO after Remco drops on Tourmalet. Either they stabbed each other in the back or they took a Sunday stroll, and people would have been equally critical of it all. Its a lose-lose situation, but after the fact, they still end up in 1-2-3 with 5 stage wins. I think they will take it once everything has settled down, don't you think? *** the media anyways, and *** all the smartasses. They dominated the opposition and there's that. It could have been prettier, yes, but this situation was so unexpected and unusual.

Impossible situation to manage, but the way they handled it was pretty good everything considered.

 

[Hugh Januss]

It would be expected to 'underestimate' Sepp since his legs have a lot of hours on them this season so that's not really an error on their part. They had to have some idea though that JV might be pretty good, and obviously Rog was targeting this race. I'm all for having multiple plans, but they also must have a flow chart for every scenario, IMO.

Wasn't Roglic the one to raise the specter of GC Kuss in an interview before the start? It's all his fault! In a perfect world (or well run team) Kuss gets his stage win and holds the jersey for a few days then Roglistomp! With Vingo waiting in the wings in case Primoz should falter on his way to a record tying 4th Vuelta.

 

[RedheadDane]

Wasn't Roglic the one to raise the specter of GC Kuss in an interview before the start? It's all his fault! In a perfect world (or well run team) Kuss gets his stage win and holds the jersey for a few days then Roglistomp! With Vingo waiting in the wings in case Primoz should falter on his way to a record tying 4th Vuelta.

Dunno if he made any comments before the start, but he did make that "Three (GC riders), for now. Maybe more later." comment after stage 8.

(Luckily for everyone involved, the rest of the Jumbo riders had enough sense to drop over an hour each.)

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Wasn't Roglic the one to raise the specter of GC Kuss in an interview before the start? It's all his fault! In a perfect world (or well run team) Kuss gets his stage win and holds the jersey for a few days then Roglistomp! With Vingo waiting in the wings in case Primoz should falter on his way to a record tying 4th Vuelta.

He did say that if you want to win a GT, you should always bring Kuss with you.

 

[RedheadDane]

He did say that if you want to win a GT, you should always bring Kuss with you.

And then he decides he'd actually like to win it himself.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Roglič called it first.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

It looks to me they never made any big decision about racing against each outher until stage 16 or 17, like they were still just taking it day by day.

They said from day one that “the road would decide” between Vinge and Rog. Not sure when Kuss got pulled in, but seems like Rog always thought there was a possibility. But multiple sources have said they decided explicitly to race Angliru and see how it shook out. Kuss kept the red jersey, and they decided that night to ride for Kuss. Vinge said he’d have preferred to ride for Kuss after the second race day but since Vinge and Kuss were going to race, he did as well. Confirms some theories. Pet all sources, j clueing the man himself, Rog helped Kuss, advised Kuss, is happy for Kuss, but also disappointed for himself. Maybe I’m an idiot but I believe all of the above, and don’t see anything wrong with it.