Sergio Henao

[sniper]

so why would he start in winter 2014 all of a sudden? 😱

you gotta be kidding me.

 

[King Boonen]

But NOT for the Ahtletes Biological passport.

Sky have already confirmed that none of their Colombian natives have ever been tested for the ABP while in Colombia prior to this winter.

WADA documents presented earlier in the thread clearly show that the Bogota Lab was not verified for ABP sampling in 2012.

There may well have been tests by Colombian anti doping on riders in Colombia,

BUT

The colombian native cyclists at Team Sky have never been tested for the purposes of the ABP while in Colombia, prior to this winter.

The sources are in the thread. Go back and check.

There is a difference between a) being tested OOC while in Colombia, and b) having samples taken for the ABP while in Colombia. The Bogota lab was not verified for ABP prior to 2013. Check with WADA.

He replied to the post detailing the fact that the lab in Columbia was not certified for ABP samples until 2013.

 

[TheGame]

He replied to the post detailing the fact that the lab in Columbia was not certified for ABP samples until 2013.

And i have already posted in the thread a screencap from the 2012 wada report showing the Bogota lab as "n/a" for ABP.

And since then, one of the Velorooms guy's emailed the lab and has had confirmation from them that they only submitted to Adams from 2013.

http://velorooms.com/index.php?topic=5227.msg148177#msg148177

(but im sure Ryo will say some guy saying he has emailed the lab isnt a valid source 😀)

 

[RobbieCanuck]

My hemotacrit has been at 50 plenty of times, and I live at sea level. No EPO.

So, explain that UCI, WADA, Team Sky and clinic????

You are naturally gifted with high levels of red blood cells and you would have to apply for an exemption from the biological passport rule. Does that explanation work? Either that or you are transfusing as opposed to using EPO.

 

[search]

(but im sure Ryo will say some guy saying he has emailed the lab isnt a valid source 😀)

source is wada, not the lab btw

personally I am not even saying this is necessarily doping related. I think the fact that ABP testing in Colombia did not take place before makes it even more logical that there are irregularities when a ABP scenario like this (coming back to Europe from Colombia after a long period of altitude) comes up for the first time. If this had happened every year and there had never been irregularities but now, I'd be more "worried".

He still could be doped, sure, but I think the theory itself does make kind of sense

 

[King Boonen]

And i have already posted in the thread a screencap from the 2012 wada report showing the Bogota lab as "n/a" for ABP.

And since then, one of the Velorooms guy's emailed the lab and has had confirmation from them that they only submitted to Adams from 2013.

http://velorooms.com/index.php?topic=5227.msg148177#msg148177

(but im sure Ryo will say some guy saying he has emailed the lab isnt a valid source 😀)

Sorry, I didn't check names so I may have caused some confusion by not specifically mentioning you. What I meant is he actually replied to your post with the screencap in it (post 268, page 28 I think), he was fully aware of the facts but continued to ignore them.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

Genuine question.

Given boosting your haemocrit has a limited lifespan whether using epo, infusing or otherwise, what would be the incentive to do it in January? Are the training benefits so great and can't be replicated at 'normal' before boosting for competition?

 

[King Boonen]

Genuine question.

Given boosting your haemocrit has a limited lifespan whether using epo, infusing or otherwise, what would be the incentive to do it in January? Are the training benefits so great and can't be replicated at 'normal' before boosting for competition?

Train harder for longer basically. I've seen the effect EPO has, it is certainly hugely beneficial during training.

 

[MagniflexOlmo]

There was some speculation earlier in the thread about high Hct, low Reticulocytes, and infusing, drawing off blood. I was wondering ... since it is well documented how riders in the past have built up a stock of fresh blood - two bags out, old bag in. Well, what if sometimes such a rider had to transport this stuff about, say from USA to Europe or vice versa? Let's say they wanted to keep building stock through winter. Well, obviously it would be foolish to try waltz through customs with bags of blood. The best way would be to carry the stock in the body. I guess some would then have to be taken out fairly quickly after reaching the intended destination or there would be a risk of high Hct, low Ret. ......

 

[GJB123]

There was some speculation earlier in the thread about high Hct, low Reticulocytes, and infusing, drawing off blood. I was wondering ... since it is well documented how riders in the past have built up a stock of fresh blood - two bags out, old bag in. Well, what if sometimes such a rider had to transport this stuff about, say from USA to Europe or vice versa? Let's say they wanted to keep building stock through winter. Well, obviously it would be foolish to try waltz through customs with bags of blood. The best way would be to carry the stock in the body. I guess some would then have to be taken out fairly quickly after reaching the intended destination or there would be a risk of high Hct, low Ret. ......

Yeah, but he would now that to be the case when he got tested, one assumes. So why on God's earth would he accept waiting a bit longer for the lost testers to find gis hem when he could just as wel have said that he was going to be out of the house and wasn't going to wait around for them (for whatever reason he could come up with).

There are still just so many things that don't add up, both on the side of he doped as on the side of he is bonafide in this.

 

[sniper]

..both on the side of he doped as on the side of he is bonafide in this.

let's not forget a third option.
he might not know he's on the juice, which would explain why he waited for the testers.
henao seems rather ignorant (a trait that is quite common among pro-cyclists).
he might be thinking "those vitamins that freeman asked me to inject myself with, seems legit, estoy tranquilo".

in the light of the recent developments sky team-doping (as opposed to each rider doping himself) becomes more and more something that we should consider, imo.

 

[King Boonen]

let's not forget a third option.
he might not know he's on the juice, which would explain why he waited for the testers.
henao seems rather ignorant (a trait that is quite common among pro-cyclists).
he might be thinking "those vitamins that freeman asked me to inject myself with, seems legit, estoy tranquilo".

in the light of the recent developments sky team-doping (as opposed to each rider doping himself) becomes more and more something that we should consider, imo.

The UCI no needle policy has been in place since 2011. No one is that ignorant.

 

[sniper]

The UCI no needle policy has been in place since 2011. No one is that ignorant.

i was only half serious wrt the injection.
but stil, i don't get your counterargument.
doping is prohibited period, still athletes do it.
needles are prohibited, but are we now supposed to assume nobody uses them? sounds naive.
do the testers check your body for needle marks?

 

[hrotha]

Anyone who uses needles knows what they're doing is the point.

 

[sniper]

Anyone who uses needles knows what they're doing is the point.

ok, get it. fair objection.
my rather unspectacular but hitherto largely ignored point remains: regardless of how (but let's assume orally), he might be taking stuff on doc's recommendation, not knowing it's illegit.
anyway, sky's recent fall out has me reconsidering the possibility of some team-wide program, something i was previously more inclined to dismiss.

 

[Netserk]

I guess it depends on one's definition of team-wide program. Just because CSC didn't do everything in-house (or as much as Postal), hardly means they didn't have a team program.

 

[MagniflexOlmo]

Yeah, but he would now that to be the case when he got tested, one assumes. So why on God's earth would he accept waiting a bit longer for the lost testers to find gis hem when he could just as wel have said that he was going to be out of the house and wasn't going to wait around for them (for whatever reason he could come up with).

Indeed. Unless at the time he thought he'd get a missed test if he didn't wait, (although that would seem naive).

The "no needle" policy I find a bit baffling. With so many tests, riders need to keep a handle on their values, as well as doing genuine health checks, both of which involves taking blood. No team blood tests would seem a bit like preventing Ferrari from using a dip stick (or whatever they do nowadays).

 

[sniper]

I guess it depends on one's definition of team-wide program. Just because CSC didn't do everything in-house (or as much as Postal), hardly means they didn't have a team program.

agreed. i/we can only speculate about the specifics, hence i spoke of "some" team-wideprogram.

that said, my suggestion is of some program where riders are ordered to take certain products whilst not (or at least not fully) being aware that what they are ordered to take is against the rules.

perhaps relevant in this context: much of sky's fall out seems to have been decided upon by the team management.
i mean, the riders that pulled out seem to have been pulled out by the teammanagement, rather than the riders taking that decision by themselves.
the management, rather than the riders themselves, seems to be panicking about something.
(but i could be wrong)

 

[Dazed and Confused]

agreed. i/we can only speculate about the specifics, hence i spoke of "some" team-wideprogram.

that said, my suggestion is of some program where riders are ordered to take certain products whilst not (or at least not fully) being aware that what they are ordered to take is against the rules.

In an earlier discussion on the subject, I gave a personal view: If a member of staff (Team owner/GM/DS/Doctor/Carer(lol)/PR manager etc) gives/hints/advises doping or about doping, I consider it team doping.

As an example a DS providing a rider with a telephone number together with a friendly hint he better turn up in the next race super fit equals team doping imo.

Just setting the bar high so to speak.

Fwiw team wide doping doesn't exist in the peloton today imo.

 

[sniper]

Agree on your definition.

Fwiw team wide doping doesn't exist in the peloton today imo.

i thought so too, lunchboxes are passe.
but sky,s mass fall out has me reconsidering it at least partially.

by the way, what does the second w stand for in fwiw?

 

[GJB123]

Agree on your definition.


i thought so too, lunchboxes are passe.
but sky,s mass fall out has me reconsidering it at least partially.

by the way, what does the second w stand for in fwiw?

For What It's Worth.

 

[Netserk]

Agree on your definition.


i thought so too, lunchboxes are passe.
but sky,s mass fall out has me reconsidering it at least partially.

by the way, what does the second w stand for in fwiw?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=fwiw&l=1

 

[GJB123]

let's not forget a third option.
he might not know he's on the juice, which would explain why he waited for the testers.
henao seems rather ignorant (a trait that is quite common among pro-cyclists).
he might be thinking "those vitamins that freeman asked me to inject myself with, seems legit, estoy tranquilo".

in the light of the recent developments sky team-doping (as opposed to each rider doping himself) becomes more and more something that we should consider, imo.

Not taking into account the no needles policy, the suggestion was that it had to do with banking blood, building up stock and taking the blood in a suitable carrying vessel across the Atlantic into his home country (i.e. his body). No he might be gullible but me thinks that any rider should be pretty aware that blood doping is definite no-no.

 

[GJB123]

i was only half serious wrt the injection.
but stil, i don't get your counterargument.
doping is prohibited period, still athletes do it.
needles are prohibited, but are we now supposed to assume nobody uses them? sounds naive.
do the testers check your body for needle marks?

No, I think readers probably still use them, especially those on a program. The point was why he stayed at home tranquilo if he knew they were coming for an OoC-test, were going to be too late of he knew he was still glowing of sorts. He would be well aware of that if had been banking blood, one may assume.

 

[sniper]

No, I think readers probably still use them, especially those on a program. The point was why he stayed at home tranquilo if he knew they were coming for an OoC-test, were going to be too late of he knew he was still glowing of sorts. He would be well aware of that if had been banking blood, one may assume.

agreed, that wouldn't make sense.
but lets see:
i guess there's still a chance (perhaps small) that he's manipulating his blood through other means (e,g, pills / liquid), without him knowing it.
well, he knows he's taking stuff obviously, but may not be knowing what it's for.
to be sure, blood manipulation can be done orally these days, can't it? (dynepo is taken orally for instance, iirc).