Serious Crash involving several Giant-Alpecin riders

[alspacka]

Terrible news to start the season. That picture of the debris is horrible.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

well he was on the wrong side of the road and it was head on

...allegedly

yeh... duh..

That doesn't make him a psycho. Specially if it's someone from the UK. It's more likely stupid...

Indeed, psycho would be driving on the correct side of the road and crossing over to hit the cyclists on purpose. This sounds more like negligence and lack of elementary knowledge by the driver.

What kind of driver doesnt realise they drive on a different side in Europe?
Not someone that should have a license.

Have you ever travelled to a nation that drives on the opposite side of the road? Some habits become almost sub-conscious. I know that I've had to slow down and concentrate when driving in Europe for the first few hours, especially in heavy traffic with roundabouts and 4 way intersections. This can go double when you're tired, and you fall back on habit.

 

[Archibald]

Re: Re:

well he was on the wrong side of the road and it was head on

...allegedly

yeh... duh..

That doesn't make him a psycho. Specially if it's someone from the UK. It's more likely stupid...

Indeed, psycho would be driving on the correct side of the road and crossing over to hit the cyclists on purpose. This sounds more like negligence and lack of elementary knowledge by the driver.

What kind of driver doesnt realise they drive on a different side in Europe?
Not someone that should have a license.

Have you ever travelled to a nation that drives on the opposite side of the road? Some habits become almost sub-conscious. I know that I've had to slow down and concentrate when driving in Europe for the first few hours, especially in heavy traffic with roundabouts and 4 way intersections. This can go double when you're tired, and you fall back on habit.

I have - drove in the US for a few weeks. Was easy to make the transition and felt more natural to drive on the right. Only issue I had was once I was back home (Aus) and turned into my own street, straight onto the right side of the road - and instantly realised.
That said, there's plenty of nitwits here in Aus that shouldn't be given licences let alone be allowed on the roads behind the wheels of cars, so my situation could be pretty unique...

Have ridden in Europe and again, was easy to make the transition to ride on the right side of the road.

 

[avanti]

When I visit the UK my wife acts as co-pilot to make sure I keep to the correct lanes.

 

[samhocking]

Just hang out at Dover or Calais and see the momentary chaos ensue and it's clear many people struggle to remember what side they should be on.

 

[Bye Bye Bicycle]

Some background info on the driver:

• On the sunny Saturday afternoon, the woman crossed from the opposite side of the CV-720 provincial road leading to Alicante, near Benigembla, and collided with the cyclists head on. A source working on the investigation said that she was driving a British-style car with the steering wheel on the right side.
  
  Alicante police charged her with imprudence and reckless driving but said that the charges could yet change.
  
  Though not releasing her name, police explained that the woman lives in Spain six months of the year and six months at home in Great Britain.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/73-year-old-british-woman-charged-for-giant-alpecin-road-crash-208491?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social

 

[TheGreenMonkey]

Re:

Some background info on the driver:

• On the sunny Saturday afternoon, the woman crossed from the opposite side of the CV-720 provincial road leading to Alicante, near Benigembla, and collided with the cyclists head on. A source working on the investigation said that she was driving a British-style car with the steering wheel on the right side.
  
  Alicante police charged her with imprudence and reckless driving but said that the charges could yet change.
  
  Though not releasing her name, police explained that the woman lives in Spain six months of the year and six months at home in Great Britain.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/73-year-old-british-woman-charged-for-giant-alpecin-road-crash-208491?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social

This makes it sound like she was NOT driving down the road on the wrong side but that she crossed to the wrong side of the road and hit the cyclists. Whether that was deliberate, accidental or beyond the drivers control we do not know.

 

[glassmoon]

regarding JD, was it index finger or "only" the end of it? it's a big difference.

 

[Farcanal]

Re: Re:

I think its time we all drive on the same side of the road. Then we would not have these accidents. I'm a brit and I'm happy to switch to the right.

Thousands of miles driven on the wrong side of the road

Monday, 22 August 2011

• More than 108,000 accidents abroad due to collisions with oncoming vehicles, according to swiftcover.com data
• One in three UK motorists drive on the wrong side of the road at least once while abroad

At least 44,000 miles will be driven on the wrong side of the road by Brits abroad this year alone, potentially causing more than 108,000 accidents with oncoming vehicles – according to a study by car insurance provider swiftcover.com.

With more than 4.4 million UK motorists set to hit foreign roads this summer, the study revealed that more than one in three (39 per cent) – equating to 1.7 million UK drivers will drive on the wrong side of the road at some point on their holiday. On previous holidays, almost 50,000 UK drivers admitted to driving at least one mile on the wrong side of the road during a trip abroad.

The worrying findings were further compounded as swiftcover.com policyholder data revealed that British drivers are twice as likely to collide with an oncoming vehicle whilst abroad, and that these kind of accidents account for 17 per cent of the 1.8 million accidents involving UK motorists reported abroad each year.

Robin Reames, chief claims officer at swiftcover.com said: “Lives are on the line because so many Brits are driving on the wrong side of the road whilst abroad. It’s such a fundamental element of driving on foreign roads but it only takes a split second to lose concentration before you find yourself head on with another vehicle.

“We see a huge uplift in oncoming vehicle accidents when Brits drive off overseas

We should indeed all ride on the same side. That would be great, but I think it's too late to change that. The amount of infrastructure that has to be adjusted is just huuuuuuuge.

Yeah you're right it would be huge. But which side should we switch to? I think the whole world should switch to the left. I saw a calculation about 5 years ago that showed that the populations of the countries that drive on the left are greater than those that drive on the right.

 

[Breh]

Weird calculation.

Its about 65%-35% in favor of right hand driving. Not to mention road infrastructure which is about 90%-10% in favor of right hand driving.

 

[Davesta]

Re: Re:

I think its time we all drive on the same side of the road. Then we would not have these accidents. I'm a brit and I'm happy to switch to the right.

Thousands of miles driven on the wrong side of the road

Monday, 22 August 2011

• More than 108,000 accidents abroad due to collisions with oncoming vehicles, according to swiftcover.com data
• One in three UK motorists drive on the wrong side of the road at least once while abroad

At least 44,000 miles will be driven on the wrong side of the road by Brits abroad this year alone, potentially causing more than 108,000 accidents with oncoming vehicles – according to a study by car insurance provider swiftcover.com.

With more than 4.4 million UK motorists set to hit foreign roads this summer, the study revealed that more than one in three (39 per cent) – equating to 1.7 million UK drivers will drive on the wrong side of the road at some point on their holiday. On previous holidays, almost 50,000 UK drivers admitted to driving at least one mile on the wrong side of the road during a trip abroad.

The worrying findings were further compounded as swiftcover.com policyholder data revealed that British drivers are twice as likely to collide with an oncoming vehicle whilst abroad, and that these kind of accidents account for 17 per cent of the 1.8 million accidents involving UK motorists reported abroad each year.

Robin Reames, chief claims officer at swiftcover.com said: “Lives are on the line because so many Brits are driving on the wrong side of the road whilst abroad. It’s such a fundamental element of driving on foreign roads but it only takes a split second to lose concentration before you find yourself head on with another vehicle.

“We see a huge uplift in oncoming vehicle accidents when Brits drive off overseas

We should indeed all ride on the same side. That would be great, but I think it's too late to change that. The amount of infrastructure that has to be adjusted is just huuuuuuuge.

Whilst challenging, it's not unprecedented. See Sweden, 1967 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagen_H
It would obviously be more difficult 50 years later, and with the traffic volume that somewhere like the UK has.

Regarding the Giant-Alpecin crash - I obviously wish all the riders the very best (including those who had to witness it), and hope they recover quickly and fully.


Now, time for a rant. Because I also wish that media outlets would change the narrative when reporting events such as this:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/degenkolb-haga-involved-in-giant-alpecin-training-camp-accident/

This was NOT an accident. Media outlets almost always refer to collisions between cars & cyclists as accidents. An "accident" makes it sound like it was 'one of those things', or that it was just bad luck. This wasn't bad luck. Nor are most other collisions.
Regardless of whether this crash was deliberate, the woman was driving on the wrong side of the road. That's not an "accident". At the very least, it's gross incompetence whilst in control of a deadly weapon. It should be reported as such, so that other drivers can slowly become aware of the significance of their actions while driving. And frankly, unless there are some mitigating circumstances (she had a seizure at the wheel, or something), I hope a court of law treats her with similar contempt.

 

[Arredondo]

Horrible for the 73 year old woman driver also. Maybe she never fully recovers from the psychological blow too.

 

[hrotha]

Of course it was an accident, Davesta. If it wasn't deliberate, it was an accident. Anything beyond that is for a court to decide.

It's not about a "narrative", it's about the simple fact of the matter.

 

[Jagartrott]

Re:

Of course it was an accident, Davesta. If it wasn't deliberate, it was an accident. Anything beyond that is for a court to decide.

I know what he means. And I agree. When driving a car or lorry, you are fully responsible, but many people are only half-and-half paying attention, texting at the wheel, driving while intoxicated, while very tired, speeding, etc. And there is still way too much good-will and excuses for such behaviour.

 

[classicomano]

Re:

regarding JD, was it index finger or "only" the end of it? it's a big difference.

They found his index finger in a ditch by the side of the road, they just glued it back on in the hospital.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re: Re:

Of course it was an accident, Davesta. If it wasn't deliberate, it was an accident. Anything beyond that is for a court to decide.

I know what he means. And I agree. When driving a car or lorry, you are fully responsible, but many people are only half-and-half paying attention, texting at the wheel, driving while intoxicated, while very tired, speeding, etc. And there is still way too much good-will and excuses for such behaviour.

i know what he means too, but when it all goes wrong, for whatever reason other than deliberate intent, what happens is by definition an accident and to argue otherwise is to argue semantics pointlessly. There is a difference perhaps between accidents caused carelessly and accidents caused recklessly, but in British English at least, they are all accidents. Calling them accidents is not making an excuse.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Of course it was an accident, Davesta. If it wasn't deliberate, it was an accident. Anything beyond that is for a court to decide.

I know what he means. And I agree. When driving a car or lorry, you are fully responsible, but many people are only half-and-half paying attention, texting at the wheel, driving while intoxicated, while very tired, speeding, etc. And there is still way too much good-will and excuses for such behaviour.

Very much this. I wish the courts / police would suspend people from driving much more frequently for all driving offenses. Perhaps if people can't drive for a couple of months they would realise that being allowed behind the wheel is a privelege which carries a lot of responsibility - not a right.

 

[gerundium]

Ramon Sinkeldam on further inspection has broken his shoulder blade...

http://nos.nl/artikel/2082773-toch-gebroken-schouderblad-voor-sinkeldam.html

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

Of course it was an accident, Davesta. If it wasn't deliberate, it was an accident. Anything beyond that is for a court to decide.

I know what he means. And I agree. When driving a car or lorry, you are fully responsible, but many people are only half-and-half paying attention, texting at the wheel, driving while intoxicated, while very tired, speeding, etc. And there is still way too much good-will and excuses for such behaviour.

None of which we know to have happened this time.

 

[Jagartrott]

Re: Re:

None of which we know to have happened this time.

Unless you had a seizure, some or more of the above would apply for getting into the wrong lane and crashing into cyclists without even braking.

 

[wrinklyvet]

Re: Re:

Of course it was an accident, Davesta. If it wasn't deliberate, it was an accident. Anything beyond that is for a court to decide.

I know what he means. And I agree. When driving a car or lorry, you are fully responsible, but many people are only half-and-half paying attention, texting at the wheel, driving while intoxicated, while very tired, speeding, etc. And there is still way too much good-will and excuses for such behaviour.

Very much this. I wish the courts / police would suspend people from driving much more frequently for all driving offenses. Perhaps if people can't drive for a couple of months they would realise that being allowed behind the wheel is a privelege which carries a lot of responsibility - not a right.

Yes indeed, penalties should be appropriate.

However, in my opinion there are limitations in their effect in some circumstances. Penalties for drink driving, for example, may be a factor that would discourage people from doing it. But I expect that virtually nobody thinks, "I won't go out today and mow down a group of cyclists by driving on the wrong side of the road because the thought of what may happen to me as a result will stop me." Genuine inadvertence or confusion is not prevented by strict penalties. Strict penalties cannot stop all accidents.

In other circumstances driving behaviour that shows lack of respect for cyclists might be modified in legal systems where there is heavy potential punishment for the consequences of bad driving of that sort.

Don't think I am an apologist. I am hoping to be a realist. Clearly it was a terrible accident and the riders were very unfortunate, except that they could have suffered even worse injuries or even death. Get well soon!

 

[skidmark]

Re: Re:

Some background info on the driver:

• On the sunny Saturday afternoon, the woman crossed from the opposite side of the CV-720 provincial road leading to Alicante, near Benigembla, and collided with the cyclists head on. A source working on the investigation said that she was driving a British-style car with the steering wheel on the right side.
  
  Alicante police charged her with imprudence and reckless driving but said that the charges could yet change.
  
  Though not releasing her name, police explained that the woman lives in Spain six months of the year and six months at home in Great Britain.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/73-year-old-british-woman-charged-for-giant-alpecin-road-crash-208491?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social

This makes it sound like she was NOT driving down the road on the wrong side but that she crossed to the wrong side of the road and hit the cyclists. Whether that was deliberate, accidental or beyond the drivers control we do not know.

One reading of that phrasing could mean that she crossed not the centre line while driving straight, but crossed the road to turn right onto it from a side road, into the lane that the cyclists were coming down. That would make alot more sense in terms of how it could happen, like if she was just starting her drive and turning onto a road she could have had the brain cramp that caused her to go on the left side. Crossing the center line while driving straight ahead just makes her sound like a psycho. Either way, it's just so terrible. I'm often frustrated by cars as a cyclist, but this stuff should never happen. Like that guy who hit Leipheimer and dragged him and didn't even notice. There really has to be driver's upgrade testing throughout life or something.

 

[maanderx]

I drove a right hand drive VW Beetle in Germany for two years without incident. I've also driven a right hand drive car in France on numerous occasions without incident. But Brits who cause collisions by their thoughtfulness should know better.

Standby for the British motoring lobby and media to back her and champion her innocence.

What I don't understand is why she didn't slow down, or stop when she saw the group of cyclist. It's the
mentality of drivers who think everything/body should get out of their way, as nothing is going to impede
their progress.

 

[Josh Homme]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BA-lHaSpXjN/

So scary, wishing him a full recovery.

 

[Sciatic]

Re: Re:

Of course it was an accident, Davesta. If it wasn't deliberate, it was an accident. Anything beyond that is for a court to decide.

I know what he means. And I agree. When driving a car or lorry, you are fully responsible, but many people are only half-and-half paying attention, texting at the wheel, driving while intoxicated, while very tired, speeding, etc. And there is still way too much good-will and excuses for such behaviour.

i know what he means too, but when it all goes wrong, for whatever reason other than deliberate intent, what happens is by definition an accident and to argue otherwise is to argue semantics pointlessly. There is a difference perhaps between accidents caused carelessly and accidents caused recklessly, but in British English at least, they are all accidents. Calling them accidents is not making an excuse.

Not just semantics. Legal consequences are very different if you hit someone because your wheel fell off vs. hitting someone because of negligence or failure to abide traffic laws, I.e. Running red light, texting, traveling in wrong lane of traffic. There may not have been intent to hurt someone, but drivers in those instances could have exercised control to avoid collision by following traffic laws and paying attention. And I too believe the penalties for the latter should be more severe than they are now (in the states).