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Jan 30, 2010
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@LS - all great points.

I did not mean you when I suggested no-one on here tries to start womens racing threads, but rather the people who drop in one-liner's about mysogony and what not and those that haven't offered a decent argument.

Also, I very much agree that women's racing need not be shorter distance (and also the analogy of tennis and other sports). I am being serious when I think men and women should compete together, especially in non-contact sports where it is athlete vs athlete to determine a winner (i.e. running, cycling, tennis, athletics can all be run together). I say non-contact, because in contact sports things are different -tackle a women around the chest or waist - and you've committed sexual harassment...

Finally, I think the best thing to prove that demand and supply is still the issue here is this CN data. Of course, I didn't specify very well, but naturally things like comparing equivalent races such as Mens Giro vx Womens Giro, Mens major classics (Ronde, Fleche etc) vs womens equivalents... that's just the races, but also I think it's worth looking at the actual articles. Especially things such as the 'features' CN does on certain riders/teams... If people on this forum are genuinely telling the truth that they review both categories equally, then those stats in a meaningful comparison should tell us something...

I used the analogy of sponsorship because it is a quasi-estimator of demand.. Different reasons to sponsor, such as personal ambition cloud that measure as you suggested, which is why the date is priority. My original argument was that the supply of womens racing on this website is related to the demand, and i drifted away from that relating it to sponsors dollars..
 
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Inner Peace said:
. In fact, maybe someone from cyclingnews can provide the data of the number of 'hits' the articles on women's racing get as a percentage of men's racing...

SERIOUSLY, CNFORUM MODS CAN YOU EASILY ACCESS THIS DATA??? - IT WOULD BE A GOOD INDICATOR OF THE LEVEL OF DEMAND FOR WOMEN'S CYCLING, PROPORTIONAL TO MENS. THANKS IF IT'S ACHIEVABLE

but the current data would be based on the womens racing being buried underneath all the other races. Ive never even seen a womens race report on CN. So to make the date accurate, for a period of a few months, womens race reports would have to be moved to a prime spot on the front page. Only then could you get accurate data.

It would be like counting views of a picture that isnt there. The current data would be pointless.

How about comparing clicks on womens races, against some minor race in libya thats also about 20 articles down.

This is another problem with the new design of cycling news. There is too much junk at the top and most of the news is off the page. Web users, on average only scroll down a further half a screen size to find what they are looking for, so on CN if its not in the top 3 races, most people wouldndt even scroll that far.
 
Jan 30, 2010
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TeamSkyFans said:
but the current data would be based on the womens racing being buried underneath all the other races. Ive never even seen a womens race report on CN. So to make the date accurate, for a period of a few months, womens race reports would have to be moved to a prime spot on the front page. Only then could you get accurate data.

It would be like counting views of a picture that isnt there. The current data would be pointless.

How about comparing clicks on womens races, against some minor race in libya thats also about 20 articles down.

This is another problem with the new design of cycling news. There is too much junk at the top and most of the news is off the page. Web users, on average only scroll down a further half a screen size to find what they are looking for, so on CN if its not in the top 3 races, most people wouldndt even scroll that far.

I understand your point, by my original argument was based on what people posted here: That they regularly keep an eye on the womens results as equally as the mens which I called BS on. Of course, some people are telling the truth, such as yourself and LS, but if the others are also telling the truth, then the current data should reveal that, regardless of what order the races are shown.

Even so, if people are regularly keeping an eye on the womens results as equally as the mens then that is evidence that they are taking the 5-6 seconds to scroll down and find the relevant race that they are following, which is not hard to do. The other day I wanted to double check the stage profiles of the TDF to plan which days i would be watching, and I too took those few seconds to scroll down.

I'm not trying to be a smart **** here, but i really do think that the reason the women's races are down the bottom is because they have very little demand, and not the reverse argument that because they are down the bottom this explains the little demand. Correlation vs Causality - It's a real b!tch.

Finally, i'll reiterate my point from above your post about comparing the pre-race articles and 'features'. These often are about women in upcoming road, track, MTB and cyclocross races. Again, CN could provide the data for these as a direct comparison, as these are both shown in the 'first edition cycling news' and also in the top5 articles at the top of the website. That data is comparable, no doubt.

Actually, another question for CN if they are listening would be if they could tell us how the ordering of races is decided? Is it just by category (ie. NE, 2.2 etc, PT) or is it by demand? Also, how often do articles stay in the 'top5' at the top of the website? Is this also based on how many hits they are getting? That would clear things up, perhaps if the website editor is reading these it would help solve the discussion here...
 
Jun 21, 2010
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When sports fans want athletic competition action at the highest possible human level, they watch men. When fans watch sports as entertainment (like WWE, Monster Jam Monster Truck Show, women's tennis, and women's beach volleyball), other criteria become interesting (like skirts and bikinis, and whether the Undertaker will take down Rey Mysterio at the next Fatal 4-Way). Ultimately, the marketplace judges the financial value of the athletic service rendered via advertising, sponsorships, broadcast deals. By these metrics, men's sports would appear to be valued more highly than women's. Thus more newsprint/coverage.
 
Jun 21, 2010
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Indignant women need look no further than the professional sport of pronography to see where far more attention, money and video press is lavished on them. What's a hard-working (no pun intended) professional male porn athlete to do? Should we outlaw capitalism to address this outrageous injustice?
 
warmfuzzies said:
When sports fans want athletic competition action at the highest possible human level, they watch men. When fans watch sports as entertainment (like WWE, Monster Jam Monster Truck Show, women's tennis, and women's beach volleyball), other criteria become interesting (like skirts and bikinis, and whether the Undertaker will take down Rey Mysterio at the next Fatal 4-Way). Ultimately, the marketplace judges the financial value of the athletic service rendered via advertising, sponsorships, broadcast deals. By these metrics, men's sports would appear to be valued more highly than women's. Thus more newsprint/coverage.

When's ICP's next album out?
 
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warmfuzzies said:
When sports fans want athletic competition action at the highest possible human level, they watch men. When fans watch sports as entertainment (like WWE, Monster Jam Monster Truck Show, women's tennis, and women's beach volleyball), other criteria become interesting (like skirts and bikinis, and whether the Undertaker will take down Rey Mysterio at the next Fatal 4-Way). Ultimately, the marketplace judges the financial value of the athletic service rendered via advertising, sponsorships, broadcast deals. By these metrics, men's sports would appear to be valued more highly than women's. Thus more newsprint/coverage.

First point.. wrong..

Womens tennis is far more interesting, and competative than mens tennis and has been for twenty years. Rallies are better, competition is closer, and generally more sporting as well.

Womens track cycling is just as exciting as mens.

Womens athletics, in many areas (marathon etc) gets more coverage than mens.

Sport isnt just about the level of performance, its about competition, fair play, as well as just strength or technical ability.

For instance, womans football, technically is awful and more or less unwatchable, womens sailing is an area where the women are just as good, often better, womens tennis is better.

Second.. please dont mention the wwf on this forum.. we need to have some standards, and besides, American Proffessional wrestling IS NOT A SPORT :D
 
Jun 21, 2010
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TeamSkyFans said:
First point.. wrong..

Womens tennis is far more interesting, and competative than mens tennis and has been for twenty years. Rallies are better, competition is closer, and generally more sporting as well(...) Womens track cycling is just as exciting as mens(...)Womens athletics, in many areas (marathon etc) gets more coverage than mens.(...) Sport isnt just about the level of performance, its about competition, fair play, as well as just strength or technical ability. (...)
Second.. please dont mention the wwf on this forum.. we need to have some standards, and besides, American Proffessional wrestling IS NOT A SPORT :D

The WWE (the WWF no longer exists)/Monster Truck Jams/porn industry/women's sports analogy is more than fair, due to their predominant reliance on entertainment rather than athletic achievement (how I define sport for purposes of this discussion). If by interest (as in women's tennis is far more interesting) you mean entertaining, I agree. Just like when the Undertaker smacks his opponent over the head with a chair, I appreciate the giggles, jiggles and wiggles of women's tennis. But when I want heart-stopping, mind-blowing shotmaking characteristics of the best tennis humans can play, I'm watching the mens semi-finals at any Grand Slam. In porn, there is also a mix of sport (ahtletic achievement) and entertainment. Here, it's the male "sportsmen" that get less attention. It's not that they aren't as creative or act as well as the women. It's just the porn viewers prefer the entertainment that women porn athletes/entertainers provide. Sailing is far more entertainment than sport, moreso than WWE or porn. Women's marathons - show me the viewership data supporting your statement, and then compare that to the MLB, NBA, NFL, or NHL.
 
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warmfuzzies said:
The WWE (the WWF no longer exists)/Monster Truck Jams/porn industry/women's sports analogy is more than fair, due to their predominant reliance on entertainment rather than athletic achievement (how I define sport for purposes of this discussion). If by interest (as in women's tennis is far more interesting) you mean entertaining, I agree. Just like when the Undertaker smacks his opponent over the head with a chair, I appreciate the giggles, jiggles and wiggles of women's tennis. But when I want heart-stopping, mind-blowing shotmaking characteristics of the best tennis humans can play, I'm watching the mens semi-finals at any Grand Slam. In porn, there is also a mix of sport (ahtletic achievement) and entertainment. Here, it's the male "sportsmen" that get less attention. It's not that they aren't as creative or act as well as the women. It's just the porn viewers prefer the entertainment that women porn athletes/entertainers provide. Sailing is far more entertainment than sport, moreso than WWE or porn. Women's marathons - show me the viewership data supporting your statement, and then compare that to the MLB, NBA, NFL, or NHL.

Honestly, i have no idea what you are talking about. Sailing isnt a sport, try doing it, try going out there and sailing a boat and tell me it doesnt need physical strength, and technical ability, as well as tactics. WWE, i really am lost on, i havnt watched wrestling since the old days of wcw worldwide and nitro. Porn, I really dont see what this has to do with anything and I will bow to your clearly better knowledge. And as a britaon I dont know about mlb, nhl or nba. I do know that womens marathon events get as many viewers as mens marathon events over here. But that may be the paula radlcliffe effect, mens marathon is always won by an african whos name you dont remember.

Are you saying that womens sports are purely entertainment and not competative, or showing physical capabilities? Comparing womens cycling to WWE????

And what does any of that have to do with this topic. We are discussing should cn give better coverage, or at least more promenance to high ranking womens races, which i beleive they should.

one small thing.. check the date on your computer, the rest of us are in 2010. There is no need to keep your computer in 1999, the millenium virus was hoax. Its safe to roll over ;)
 
Jun 21, 2010
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TeamSkyFans said:
Sailing isnt a sport, try doing it, try going out there and sailing a boat and tell me it doesnt need physical strength, and technical ability, as well as tactics.

Are you saying that womens sports are purely entertainment and not competative, or showing physical capabilities? Comparing womens cycling to WWE????

And what does any of that have to do with this topic. We are discussing should cn give better coverage, or at least more promenance to high ranking womens races, which i beleive they should.

I am saying women's sport, like the WWE, monster truck jams, and porn (at least group action) all involve some degree of competition showing physical capabilities. It's the objectivity that are missing - you can't say which "sport" is more "sporting." Tougher to argue about who finished the race in the shortest time, or who beat whom head-to-head. I argue fans who want the best of competition in the context of maximizing objective, measurable human achievement prefer men's events - hence why CN disproportionately covers men's cycling. Some fans follow women's sport for the giggles, jiggles, and wiggles (plus all the reasons you mention). These audiences tend to not be covered in the mass media precisely due to the limited interest.

Sailing - there are large boats where physical efforts are minimized and you dont even need grinders. And sailing a little boat at mediocre speed like an FV or a Lazer doesn't exactly require strength or agility training.
 

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Apr 28, 2010
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Comparing women in sport to porn, really, are we sinking this low on this forum? I know it often is a mostly male only club around here, which is fine, but I did not know we were still in the dark ages around here.
Warmfuzzies, what the hell are you smoking?
 
I'm not sure I get your argument. You're saying women's sport involves some degree of competition showing physical capabilities... isn't that what "sport" is? Who can ride fastest, who can run fastest, who can swim fastest, who can jump furthest? Who can develop the best skills within a set of parameters?

Men's tennis has improved, but 10-15 years ago it was really frustrating - so many people were getting by just on power serves. Women's tennis provides a more entertaining spectacle, and not just for those who like to see eastern European girls in short skirts. After all, the Williams sisters are derided for their looks, but everybody knows who they are and respects their achievements. At sports like athletics and tennis, women's events are equally prestigious and well-covered as the men's. You won't find many people who've not heard of the Williams sisters who HAVE heard of Federer and Nadal. Dim put a good example with the marathon - Britons will always know Paula Radcliffe, but in the men's events, apart from Moses Kiptanui and Heile Gebreselassie, I couldn't tell you who's who or what they're doing.

So you continue to talk about porn and WWE and listen to the Insane Clown Posse, and the grown ups will have their discussion somewhere else. Capiche?
 
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ive twittered liz hatch.. would love to see her respond to some of this tripe in her next blog.

Im really not sure how comparing womens cycling to have the same technical and sporting merits as group sex is a very foreward looking attitude
 
Apr 28, 2009
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TeamSkyFans said:
ive twittered liz hatch.. would love to see her respond to some of this tripe in her next blog.

Im really not sure how comparing womens cycling to have the same technical and sporting merits as group sex is a very foreward looking attitude

Of all the women pro riders out there, you picked Liz Hatch. The one that always unzipped her jersey before a race to make sure her photos would be taken - because it certainly wasn't for her racing.

But, yes I also would like to see women's racing given a feature once in a while, seriously do we really need 5/10 articles on Armstrong/Contador per week? yes, that's what it feels like.
 
Jun 30, 2009
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How is it that the moderators flex their muscles and shut some threads down in no time flat, but other times just totally chill out and threads this one stay up untouched? c'mon.
 
Nov 24, 2009
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this_is_edie said:
Of all the women pro riders out there, you picked Liz Hatch. The one that always unzipped her jersey before a race to make sure her photos would be taken - because it certainly wasn't for her racing.

But, yes I also would like to see women's racing given a feature once in a while, seriously do we really need 5/10 articles on Armstrong/Contador per week? yes, that's what it feels like.

He picked her because she has the cyclingnews blog so is most suited to reply to this website

A more pertinent question would be to ask why cyclingnews pick her for the blog rather than trying to disparage dim.
 
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this_is_edie said:
Of all the women pro riders out there, you picked Liz Hatch. The one that always unzipped her jersey before a race to make sure her photos would be taken - because it certainly wasn't for her racing.

But, yes I also would like to see women's racing given a feature once in a while, seriously do we really need 5/10 articles on Armstrong/Contador per week? yes, that's what it feels like.

erm.. no, read what I said. I twittered her as as far as I know she is the only female rider that blogs for cycling news and also is on twitter. I didnt pick her particularly. There was logic in my thoughts.

Emailing Emma Pooley wouldnt really have much point to it would it.

edit: thanks gmac :D
 
Jun 21, 2010
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Libertine Seguros said:
I'm not sure I get your argument. You're saying women's sport involves some degree of competition showing physical capabilities... isn't that what "sport" is? Who can ride fastest, who can run fastest, who can swim fastest, who can jump furthest? Who can develop the best skills within a set of parameters?



So you continue to talk about porn and WWE and listen to the Insane Clown Posse, and the grown ups will have their discussion somewhere else. Capiche?

The point I'm making is that women's sports do not, never have, and without the clinic never will represent the best of objective human physical achievement. Testosterone is the likely culprit. To state that women's sport stands equally with men's sport in objective human physical achievement is broadly inaccurate. The extent to which a physical entertainment event is commercially successful depends on many factors, including competition, style, physical attractiveness, and the zeitgeist/gestalt of the contemporary period. The press is a commercial entity trying to build readership to justify advert dollars. They cover what they expect their target demographic/psychographic will read. That's why CN writes primarily about the men's cycling sport. Suggesting that fact is shameful is garbage. If I want to consume physical entertainment as much or more than I want to watch the best of objective human physican capability, I've got lots to choose from, including WWE, Monster Truck Rallys, porn, and women's cycling. The rest of the world also makes these choices every day. Guess that's why women's cycling isn't as prominent in the media as the other activities I mentioned.
 
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But youre missing the point. Cycling News DO WRITE ABOUT WOMENS RACING
the argument is that when they post the articles they appear at the bottom of the page below the amateur tour of jersey.

I dont think the complaint is lack of coverage, its where they put it when they do it so it doesnt get seen by 95% of site visitors. Makes me feel sorry for whoever spends ages writing up the race reports on those races.

Im just really confused with your obsession with WWE, Monster Truck and Porn. Im am sitting here rubbing my forehead genuinly confused by you.
 
warmfuzzies said:
The point I'm making is that women's sports do not, never have, and without the clinic never will represent the best of objective human physical achievement. Testosterone is the likely culprit. To state that women's sport stands equally with men's sport in objective human physical achievement is broadly inaccurate. The extent to which a physical entertainment event is commercially successful depends on many factors, including competition, style, physical attractiveness, and the zeitgeist/gestalt of the contemporary period. The press is a commercial entity trying to build readership to justify advert dollars. They cover what they expect their target demographic/psychographic will read. That's why CN writes primarily about the men's cycling sport. Suggesting that fact is shameful is garbage. If I want to consume physical entertainment as much or more than I want to watch the best of objective human physican capability, I've got lots to choose from, including WWE, Monster Truck Rallys, porn, and women's cycling. The rest of the world also makes these choices every day. Guess that's why women's cycling isn't as prominent in the media as the other activities I mentioned.

The fact that WWE, Monster Truck Rallies (incorrectly pluralised) and porn are the three things you instantly think of when you want to watch something that isn't "the best of objective human physical capability" is hilarious. Do you also listen to Motley Crüe and beat your wife?
 
TeamSkyFans said:
But youre missing the point. Cycling News DO WRITE ABOUT WOMENS RACING
the argument is that when they post the articles they appear at the bottom of the page below the amateur tour of jersey.

I dont think the complaint is lack of coverage, its where they put it when they do it so it doesnt get seen by 95% of site visitors. Makes me feel sorry for whoever spends ages writing up the race reports on those races.

+1 xlots...
 
Jun 21, 2010
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TeamSkyFans said:
But youre missing the point. Cycling News DO WRITE ABOUT WOMENS RACING
the argument is that when they post the articles they appear at the bottom of the page below the amateur tour of jersey.

I dont think the complaint is lack of coverage, its where they put it when they do it so it doesnt get seen by 95% of site visitors. Makes me feel sorry for whoever spends ages writing up the race reports on those races.

Im just really confused with your obsession with WWE, Monster Truck and Porn. Im am sitting here rubbing my forehead genuinly confused by you.

The answer could be: (a) this website does not have a hit-tracking, placement optimizing protocol, in which case the site is not optimizing its commericial potential/meeting user needs; (b) just like for its forums, this site places articles of higher interest as defined by hits/more recent comments in a more prominent location; or (c) the website creators/moderators/webmaster are ICP-listening, wife-beating mysogynists with posters of Nicky Sixx above their beds.

I'm going with option 'b', which would suggest the initial thread-starting comment is garbage.
 
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Anonymous

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well at the moment, while i would understand the Giro del Trentino being under the recent tour de suisse, and ster elektroteor, i fail to understand why it is considered less newsworthy than some notable greats such as:

Boucles de la Mayenne
G.P. Nobili Rubinetterie, Coppa Papa' Carlo
Harlem Skyscraper Cycling Classic
GP Nobili Rubinetterie Coppa Citta di Stresa
Tour de Beauce
and the awe inspiring Nature Valley GP

surely the girls deserve better than that. I cant imagine the interest in the harlem skyscraper classic is that high. the balance in cross and mtb is a lot better, but that is helped by a lot of the events being dual sex so the women are included in the main event. But im pretty sure even when womens road races co-incide with the mens equivalent cn catagorise them seperately and relegate the girls.