Shane Sutton - Team Sky coach

[Robert21]

Re: Re:

I used the term "given context"; which demonstrates you're looking for anyway to given Sutton a pass.

I am not looking to "give Sutton a pass". Rather, I am highlighting the 'guilt must be assumed' mob-rule mentality that seems to take over as soon as someone is accused of 'sexism' these days. (Just look at what happened to Nobel prize winner Tim Hunt for another example.)

As to the 'facts'. Bottom line is we don't know what the facts are, only having the opinions of various parties, all of whom seem to have an agenda to play, to base our own opinions on.

 

[Robert21]

Re: Re:

Sutton no longer works for BC. I think that tells us everything.

That the crap is about to hit the fan at BC and all the 'Teflon suit'* wearers in senior management are determined that it will not be them who pays the price?

*Robert Millar's phrase in this month's Rouleur magazine.

Moving on to the British Cycling part of the affair, we learn that deep in the medal factory that is the Manchester velodrome, there's a dedicated pharmacy for those in its system. And that includes Team Sky riders. You'd have thought there would have at least been a thin blue line down the middle to separate each entity, but it seems not. The contents have been accessed and distributed by employees of BC that also happen to be members of Team Sky and no one seems to have thought there might be a bit of conflicting interest.

Also, despite an OCD attention to every little thing, there's no audit trail of what leaves its shelves, where it goes and who requested it in the first place. Could be a bit awkward if that came out. Oops, too late, and since this is funded by some government money, it's ended up In front of a Parliamentary Select Committee. Now is a timely moment to remember that, though the main players had been invited to appear before MPs and they weren't therefore under oath, they could well be at a later date if the answers they give aren't satisfactory.

...The two top guys at BC came across as underprepared bumpkins, not knowing who was doing what in their organisation. Shane Sutton got predictably angry when he ought to have remembered where he was and who he was talking to, and Dave Brailsford gave political answers to almost every question, seemingly forgetting that the people in front of him are all full-time political animals.

...Someone will end up under the proverbial wheels of the bus at the end of this enquiry, no doubt, probably holding a parcel of contents unknown. In this latent sexism/mismanagement affair, don't expect it to be anyone wearing a Teflon suit.

 

[Rob27172]

Re: Re:

I used the term "given context"; which demonstrates you're looking for anyway to given Sutton a pass.

I am not looking to "give Sutton a pass". Rather, I am highlighting the 'guilt must be assumed' mob-rule mentality that seems to take over as soon as someone is accused of 'sexism' these days. (Just look at what happened to Nobel prize winner Tim Hunt for another example.)

As to the 'facts'. Bottom line is we don't know what the facts are, only having the opinions of various parties, all of whom seem to have an agenda to play, to base our own opinions on.

Sorry but that attitude is what has kept the whole macho culture of bullying alive and well for so long.
In so many walks of life the idea is that it is the liberal / PC left sensitive types that complain and they should just suck it up and let the "real" workers get on with doing what is necessary.
Even Tim Hunt admitted his comments were sexist !!!
Just because he never meant to cause offence doesnt mean it was ok. It means he really isn't as smart or thoughtful as he should have been.

Sorry - but in no walk of life is it ok to be a bully. And the fact that as you point out in Robert Millars post, Sutton had a tendency to forget who he was talking to, further points to a bully who thought he was untouchable and would get away with whatever he wanted.

"Not being PC" is now bully speak for being a macho, misogynistic oik. Luckily for the world at large the vast majority of right minded people who have half a brain can see that this is unacceptable and people like that are being booted out of positions of power in civilised countries.

Which is why people like Sutton will go back to Aus and work in a country where it is still ok to go to a pub where women daren't walk into, and brag about kicking the cat and beating the wife.

Finally the reason that we know enough facts to call this out is that there was an enquiry and they did get to enough facts to take action. As has been pointed out, bully type people are clever enough to make sure that all of their actions take place in private and behind closed doors - so the facts can be argued as hearsay and opinion. Most people who are genuine and open and who are in positions of power do not hold all their meetings behind closed doors in one on one situations and are happy to be seen conducting their business.
Personally as a coach I would never have a one on one meeting with a female athlete out of respect for the athlete (who may feel intimidated or uncomfortable in that situation) and out of a sense of preservation for myself so anything I did say or do could not be misconstrued or taken badly and that there would be witnesses to help me prove that I did not do anything untoward or say anything I shouldn't.

Funnily enough this is one of the basic tenets of the British Cycling Coaching qualifications!!!

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

I used the term "given context"; which demonstrates you're looking for anyway to given Sutton a pass.

I am not looking to "give Sutton a pass". Rather, I am highlighting the 'guilt must be assumed' mob-rule mentality that seems to take over as soon as someone is accused of 'sexism' these days. (Just look at what happened to Nobel prize winner Tim Hunt for another example.)

As to the 'facts'. Bottom line is we don't know what the facts are, only having the opinions of various parties, all of whom seem to have an agenda to play, to base our own opinions on.

No, we have a the final report which was leaked, a report which was attempted to be surpressed by British Cycling & UK Sport. Sorry if that doesn't fit up to what you were hoping.

As for mob rule, I'll be sure to pass that on to those who match in solidarity for women recently.

Facts again don't you hate them?

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Sutton no longer works for BC. I think that tells us everything.

That the crap is about to hit the fan at BC and all the 'Teflon suit'* wearers in senior management are determined that it will not be them who pays the price?

*Robert Millar's phrase in this month's Rouleur magazine.

Moving on to the British Cycling part of the affair, we learn that deep in the medal factory that is the Manchester velodrome, there's a dedicated pharmacy for those in its system. And that includes Team Sky riders. You'd have thought there would have at least been a thin blue line down the middle to separate each entity, but it seems not. The contents have been accessed and distributed by employees of BC that also happen to be members of Team Sky and no one seems to have thought there might be a bit of conflicting interest.

Also, despite an OCD attention to every little thing, there's no audit trail of what leaves its shelves, where it goes and who requested it in the first place. Could be a bit awkward if that came out. Oops, too late, and since this is funded by some government money, it's ended up In front of a Parliamentary Select Committee. Now is a timely moment to remember that, though the main players had been invited to appear before MPs and they weren't therefore under oath, they could well be at a later date if the answers they give aren't satisfactory.

...The two top guys at BC came across as underprepared bumpkins, not knowing who was doing what in their organisation. Shane Sutton got predictably angry when he ought to have remembered where he was and who he was talking to, and Dave Brailsford gave political answers to almost every question, seemingly forgetting that the people in front of him are all full-time political animals.

...Someone will end up under the proverbial wheels of the bus at the end of this enquiry, no doubt, probably holding a parcel of contents unknown. In this latent sexism/mismanagement affair, don't expect it to be anyone wearing a Teflon suit.

Teflon suit wearers? One of them now is UCI President. Last BC head sit guy resigned early. Hardly Teflon. More like rat abandoning a sinking ship!

Millar plays omerta as much as anyone. Rouleur mag is all omerta!

That doesn't exonerate Sutton or his actions, just Millar giving his tuppence worth of a situation we are all aware of. Millar very good at cutting the BS. Pity he doesn't do a tell all in such a manner. Be well worth a read.

BC/Sky were a big team! Someone somewhere decided that is was time to separate them at least for visuals, whether the umbilical was ever truly cut of just shoved out of sight we may never find out.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

I used the term "given context"; which demonstrates you're looking for anyway to given Sutton a pass.

I am not looking to "give Sutton a pass". Rather, I am highlighting the 'guilt must be assumed' mob-rule mentality that seems to take over as soon as someone is accused of 'sexism' these days. (Just look at what happened to Nobel prize winner Tim Hunt for another example.)

As to the 'facts'. Bottom line is we don't know what the facts are, only having the opinions of various parties, all of whom seem to have an agenda to play, to base our own opinions on.

Sorry but that attitude is what has kept the whole macho culture of bullying alive and well for so long.
In so many walks of life the idea is that it is the liberal / PC left sensitive types that complain and they should just suck it up and let the "real" workers get on with doing what is necessary.
Even Tim Hunt admitted his comments were sexist !!!
Just because he never meant to cause offence doesnt mean it was ok. It means he really isn't as smart or thoughtful as he should have been.

Sorry - but in no walk of life is it ok to be a bully. And the fact that as you point out in Robert Millars post, Sutton had a tendency to forget who he was talking to, further points to a bully who thought he was untouchable and would get away with whatever he wanted.

"Not being PC" is now bully speak for being a macho, misogynistic oik. Luckily for the world at large the vast majority of right minded people who have half a brain can see that this is unacceptable and people like that are being booted out of positions of power in civilised countries.

Which is why people like Sutton will go back to Aus and work in a country where it is still ok to go to a pub where women daren't walk into, and brag about kicking the cat and beating the wife.

Finally the reason that we know enough facts to call this out is that there was an enquiry and they did get to enough facts to take action. As has been pointed out, bully type people are clever enough to make sure that all of their actions take place in private and behind closed doors - so the facts can be argued as hearsay and opinion. Most people who are genuine and open and who are in positions of power do not hold all their meetings behind closed doors in one on one situations and are happy to be seen conducting their business.
Personally as a coach I would never have a one on one meeting with a female athlete out of respect for the athlete (who may feel intimidated or uncomfortable in that situation) and out of a sense of preservation for myself so anything I did say or do could not be misconstrued or taken badly and that there would be witnesses to help me prove that I did not do anything untoward or say anything I shouldn't.

Funnily enough this is one of the basic tenets of the British Cycling Coaching qualifications!!!

I suggest you quit this thread when you have to besmirch a country ( Australia ) with reckless and unsubstantiated gossip to support an argument - One of the poorest posts even seen on the Clinic.

 

[yaco]

Bullying and sexism have always been systemic in many professional ( team ) Olympic Sports - Possibly strong action may reduce the amount of bullying/sexism, but its naive to think it will ever be completely eradicated.

We must remember British Cycling through Simon Yates under the bus to divert attention from the Shane Sutton bullying allegations - So to change institutionalised behaviour is a big order.

 

[Robert21]

Re: Re:

Which is why people like Sutton will go back to Aus and work in a country where it is still ok to go to a pub where women daren't walk into, and brag about kicking the cat and beating the wife.

You seem to forget that one of the rules of the politically correct thought police is to not resort to racism when attacking the evils of sexism. Another is to avoid labeling whole groups of people with gross, negative stereotypes.

 

[gillan1969]

However, "...dressed like an Australian's nightmare" gets a pass

 

[Robert21]

Re: Re:

"Not being PC" is now bully speak for being a macho, misogynistic oik. Luckily for the world at large the vast majority of right minded people...

'Right minded people'. What a loaded phrase! "Thoughtcrime does not entail death. Thoughtcrime is death!"

I would say that, these days, the abuse of language works pretty much in the reverse to what to you suggest, with terms such as 'sexist', which once meant discriminating against someone (male or female) because of their gender having come to mean 'a man (and only a man) doing pretty much anything that a female objects to in any way, including failing to be sufficiently 'PC'!

(Or were you suggesting that the 'bullies' are those who accuse people of being "macho, misogynistic oiks" on the basis that they are insufficiently 'PC', in which case I agree. )

 

[thehog]

Shane has a lot spare time on hands these days. There is only so many episodes of Neighbors he can watch before he hits the nternet forums :lol:

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Which is why people like Sutton will go back to Aus and work in a country where it is still ok to go to a pub where women daren't walk into, and brag about kicking the cat and beating the wife.

You seem to forget that one of the rules of the politically correct thought police is to not resort to racism when attacking the evils of sexism. Another is to avoid labeling whole groups of people with gross, negative stereotypes.

You have reached the depths when you cut and paste a quote from another poster under my name - And yet we have a thread about Skybots - The irony is delicious !

 

[blackcat]

Shane has a lot spare time on hands these days. There is only so many episodes of Neighbors he can watch before he hits the nternet forums :lol:

do you know where the upper floor on his bike shop is hog? I think I may just romeo and julet sernade the upper floor. i am thinking a mandolin?

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

Which is why people like Sutton will go back to Aus and work in a country where it is still ok to go to a pub where women daren't walk into, and brag about kicking the cat and beating the wife.

You seem to forget that one of the rules of the politically correct thought police is to not resort to racism when attacking the evils of sexism. Another is to avoid labeling whole groups of people with gross, negative stereotypes.

You have reached the depths when you cut and paste a quote from another poster under my name - And yet we have a thread about Skybots - The irony is delicious !

far more likely he's fallen foul of trying to work out the bl**dy quote thing....we can all see the history...

 

[Robert21]

Re: Re:

far more likely he's fallen foul of trying to work out the bl**dy quote thing....we can all see the history...

Exactly! :redface:

 

[GraftPunk]

Why do the Sky/BC/Sutton apologists put air quotes around words like facts and sexism? I'm honestly curious.

 

[kingjr]

Re:

Why do the Sky/BC/Sutton apologists put air quotes around words like facts and sexism? I'm honestly curious.

Why does anyone put air quotes around anything?

 

[Robert21]

Re: Re:

Even Tim Hunt admitted his comments were sexist !!! Just because he never meant to cause offence doesnt mean it was ok. It means he really isn't as smart or thoughtful as he should have been.

But did Hunt's throw-away joke at an obscure conference justify destroying his career? Or does the fact that this sort of thing commonly happens happens these days highlight the fact that the laudable desire to challenge discrimination had created just another tyranny?

In addition, there seem to be plenty of people around these days whose whole focus in life appears to be looking for things to be offended by, especially if this helps them to further their agendas. Even Trevor Philips, one-time chair of the UK's Equality and Human Rights Commission, recognises that pandering to such individuals has gone too far, not least because doing so has helped to fuel the 'populist' backlash which put Trump into power.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/19/trevor-phillips-i-dont-care-about-offending-people-has-political-correctness-gone-mad-channel-4

 

[GraftPunk]

Re: Re:

Why do the Sky/BC/Sutton apologists put air quotes around words like facts and sexism? I'm honestly curious.

Why does anyone put air quotes around anything?

To make them seem nonexistent, unimportant, or inapplicable? That's the part I'm curious about (plus shining a flashlight into how some poster's frame the world).

 

[kingjr]

Re: Re:

Why do the Sky/BC/Sutton apologists put air quotes around words like facts and sexism? I'm honestly curious.

Why does anyone put air quotes around anything?

To make them seem nonexistent, unimportant, or inapplicable? That's the part I'm curious about (plus shining a flashlight into how some poster's frame the world).

I think inapplicable is what you're looking for, hasn't Robert already answered that, indirectly? I think you need only go back one page.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

"Not being PC" is now bully speak for being a macho, misogynistic oik. Luckily for the world at large the vast majority of right minded people...

'Right minded people'. What a loaded phrase! "Thoughtcrime does not entail death. Thoughtcrime is death!"

I would say that, these days, the abuse of language works pretty much in the reverse to what to you suggest, with terms such as 'sexist', which once meant discriminating against someone (male or female) because of their gender having come to mean 'a man (and only a man) doing pretty much anything that a female objects to in any way, including failing to be sufficiently 'PC'!

Yeah, real manly men can't even say sexist things to colleagues at work any more or bully young women who they are in a position of power over without the PC left wing thought police calling them sexist bullies.

Have you considered the possibility that you may be more comfortable on some forum where Men's Rights desperadoes foam at the mouth ranting about the evils of family court?

 

[Robert21]

Re:

Why do the Sky/BC/Sutton apologists put air quotes around words like facts and sexism? I'm honestly curious.

Because sexism does have a well-defined meaning. That is discriminating against someone on the basis of their gender. Problem is, the term is now used to mean a whole raft of other things that are not strictly speaking sexism, from failing to be a politically correct, doubleplusgood thinker to doing or saying anything that a female can, if she trues hard enough, find reason to dislike or object to!

If Sutton actively discriminated against female riders, rather than trying to get the best performance he could out of them then he is a sexist. However if, for example, he unthinkingly used the Aussi slang 'Shelias' to refer to women (as one of the charges against him alleges) than it does seem appropriate to put 'scare quotes' around any reference to this as being 'sexism'. (Although doubtless the thought police would press for the broadest possible interpretation of the term.)

 

[GraftPunk]

Re: Re:

Why do the Sky/BC/Sutton apologists put air quotes around words like facts and sexism? I'm honestly curious.

Why does anyone put air quotes around anything?

To make them seem nonexistent, unimportant, or inapplicable? That's the part I'm curious about (plus shining a flashlight into how some poster's frame the world).

I think inapplicable is what you're looking for, hasn't Robert already answered that, indirectly? I think you need only go back one page.

I'm just providing the shovel

 

[Robert21]

Re: Re:

Have you considered the possibility that you may be more comfortable on some forum where Men's Rights desperadoes foam at the mouth ranting about the evils of family court?

Not at all. That lot seem to be as bad to me as all the 'foaming at the mouth' feminists ranting on in the opinion section of the Guardian!

Perhaps you are advocating that I be made an 'unperson' for my thoughtcrimes? Unfortunately, such intolerance and the determination to silence anyone who holds a different opinion or who fails to be wholly 'orthodox' in what they say - rather than trying to engage with them - is pretty widespread these days.

 

[GraftPunk]

Re: Re:

If Sutton actively discriminated against _____ riders, rather than trying to get the best performance he could out of them then he is a ___ist. However if, for example, he unthinkingly used the _____ slang '_______' to refer to _______ (as one of the charges against him alleges) than it does seem appropriate to put 'scare quotes' around any reference to this as being '____ism'. (Although doubtless the thought police would press for the broadest possible interpretation of the term.)

Madlibs anyone? Enlightening.

edited for proper html