Should the grupetto have been DQ'd on Stage 15?

[Aproblem]

Re: Re:

“This is an exceptional measure,” Guillén told AS. “We considered how the stage developed and the effort from the preceding stages. And we have just come off an extremely demanding stage at the Aubisque. Of course, without this exception, we would have eliminated 93 riders.”
Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/09/vuelta-a-espana/jury-saves-half-vuelta-peloton-time-cut_419968#sIIiwHzfEpWTGmWO.99

Did he really just say that? This is basically saying that his race design is ***. This stage was made to be ridden hard from the start, with the riders tired from the day before. When exactly that happens you can't just go say that it was exceptional and completely ignore the rules, which says "In exceptional cases only, unpredictable and of force majeure, the commissaires panel may extend the finishing time limits after consultation with the organiser. "

No force majeure here, and the entire purpose of the stage was to be ridden hard from the start. You can't argue that is unpredictable either.

 

[hrotha]

Regardless, there's a crucial difference between "so tired you can't even make the time cut anymore" and "so tired you're feeling lazy and you don't even bother trying, and that just a couple of days after disrespecting the race with another glaring example of not racing".

 

[gregrowlerson]

Re:

It would have also served teams which DID NOT majorly participate in that "disgrace"...

Orica, Astana, Tinkoff, Cannondale wuld all be in great position to put pressure on Froome and challenge his podium place as he would have been without (or with my favored leniency policy with one) helper.

The few "sprinters" who fought their way under the time limit (Felline, Moser, Rojas, Keukeleire) would have been rewarded with a great opportunity to add some stage wins.

No team would EVER again risk a complete expulsion of any Grand Tour like Direct Energie here...

And probably the rest of the stages would have been exciting and open with no one really policing the pack (Movistar - yes, but only against actual GC rivals).


What would race have lost? Well, the biggest danger was obviously that Sky would throw down a tantrum and make Froome abandon as well...

I don't think FdJ would have done it despite Elissonde being alone. He would have still kept for polka dot.

Bora would have probably decided that it would be no worth of keeping the operation going for Pfingsten alone, LottoJumbo for Bennett ditto and maybe Giant for Ludwigsson+Haga. But who would have actually missed those guys? Bennett would've been an unfortunate single rider whose chance for Top10 would've been taken away with no fault of his own.

So race would've gone on with maybe 16 teams and some 67 riders. Fine with me.

Hit the nail on the head here. Especially about the sprinters that did work hard to make the time cut then deservedly getting a better chance to win one of the remaining stages.

About the only main thing that the GC race would have lost is for Froome to have no teammates (or one), pretty much snuffing out any chances that he had of making a miraculous recovery to defeat Quintana (which is admittedly a pretty slim chance regardless).

There are two things that are disgraceful about the grupetto here. To lose 54 minutes on such a short stage 15 is horrible. But secondly, whilst many go on about how hard stage 14 was (which was hard, but still short of 200 kms BTW), they ignore the easier stage 13, where the majority of riders finished around half an hour behind the breakaway....

How many 'rest' days do these riders want?!

 

[seldon71]

Re: Re:

The few "sprinters" who fought their way under the time limit (Felline, Moser, Rojas, Keukeleire) would have been rewarded with a great opportunity to add some stage wins.

Not if they wouldn't really have any helpers to pull back the breakaways.

Well, Cannondale would have had helpers for Moser (King, Rolland, Vilella). Trek would have definitely used Zubeldia & Bernard in Felline's favor as well. Orica would have had tougher decision to make, but could have rented Howson & Bewley(?) for stages 18 & 21.

...and Rojas + Bennati would've been sprinting if it came to group finish in Stage 18. Just to make sure that no GC contender steals any bonus seconds... Their teams would just not have been helping for that group finish to arrive.

 

[carton]

The Dawg has chimed in (twitter):"Froome said he believes the 93 riders should have been cut from Vuelta".

I tend to believe him. He seems to enjoy proper racing. Don't think he would enjoy being the only one flying solo, though.

 

[S2Sturges]

Re:

The Dawg has chimed in (twitter):"Froome said he believes the 93 riders should have been cut from Vuelta".

I tend to believe him. He seems to enjoy proper racing. Don't think he would enjoy being the only one flying solo, though.

Also, it's very easy to say such things in hindsight knowing that you're not the only one left and your boys were literally in the laughing group all day... fresh as daisies to go full gas for the rest of the Vuelta... Sure other teams were complicit, but he's the only one realistically riding for the top step...

 

[hrotha]

I get the impression that Froome likes proper racing, as long as it's not too proper. Going on a safari, not living in the wild. Indoor climbing, rather than going to the Himalayas.

 

[saunaking]

Late to this thread and haven't read it all but in a situation like this some creativity should be used.

What about allowing them to all continue but say a 5 second time penalty for every member of the team for each rider outside the cut.

So in this case if 8 sky were out of time limit, a 40 second penalty for each sky guy including Froome etc...

Then at least there is pressure for GC guy teammates to work for the time cut and not gain an advantage over other teams in the coming days due to their 'rest day'.

 

[seldon71]

Re: Re:

The Dawg has chimed in (twitter):"Froome said he believes the 93 riders should have been cut from Vuelta".

I tend to believe him. He seems to enjoy proper racing. Don't think he would enjoy being the only one flying solo, though.

Also, it's very easy to say such things in hindsight knowing that you're not the only one left and your boys were literally in the laughing group all day... fresh as daisies to go full gas for the rest of the Vuelta... Sure other teams were complicit, but he's the only one realistically riding for the top step...

This may also just be a comment actually directed towards his Sky-team mates...

In sense of : "You bastards left me to die a slow death alone - if you are that useless, you could as well be off the race!" (David Lopez not included obviously)

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Late to this thread and haven't read it all but in a situation like this some creativity should be used.

What about allowing them to all continue but say a 5 second time penalty for every member of the team for each rider outside the cut.

So in this case if 8 sky were out of time limit, a 40 second penalty for each sky guy including Froome etc...

Then at least there is pressure for GC guy teammates to work for the time cut and not gain an advantage over other teams in the coming days due to their 'rest day'.

So the only teams you want to penalise are the teams that usually do all the work in the mountains? Seems sensible...

 

[saunaking]

Re: Re:

So the only teams you want to penalise are the teams that usually do all the work in the mountains? Seems sensible...

not sure if thats sarcasm or what but 'usually' is irrelevant. the point is to punish those SPECIFICALLY who missed the timecut in such a situation where you can't or wont remove them from the race.

 

[IndianCyclist]

DQed as they slowed not because of environmental conditions but their own personal requirements.

 

[Alexandre B.]

Re: Re:

Well, that's not the explanation they're given.

“This is an exceptional measure,” Guillén told AS. “We considered how the stage developed and the effort from the preceding stages. And we have just come off an extremely demanding stage at the Aubisque. Of course, without this exception, we would have eliminated 93 riders.”
Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/09/vuelta-a-espana/jury-saves-half-vuelta-peloton-time-cut_419968#sIIiwHzfEpWTGmWO.99

And even without that, being in a situation where you'd be forced to eliminate 93 riders is an extraordinary situation. A situation what would be extremely stupid, and not really serve the race in any way.

He's not respecting his own race. That's just sad.

Is someone respecting this race? UCI commissaires did not, part of these 90 riders did not.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So for half the péloton they get a rest day on Tuesday, a pseudo-rest day on Friday, a pseudo-rest day on Sunday, a rest day on Tuesday, and another pseudo-rest day on Sunday before the race is over.

The claims of exceptional circumstances that merit allowing the riders to essentially hold race organizers to ransom by gathering in a group large enough they know the organizers can't throw them out and daring them are similar to the Extreme Weather Protocol nonsense from March. At least that time the riders had the argument that it was about safety to hide behind; here there's nothing, other than that they didn't want to have to make any effort because they'd been forced to ride one (that's ONE) real mountain stage.

This is an endurance sport. Even at Le Mans, where you can sit in the pit getting repairs for hours on end, if you don't complete a fixed percentage of the winner's distance you can't be a classified finisher. The riders are essentially protesting that they are being asked to show too much endurance, but the distance can't be the reason as there have been few 200km+ stages; the difficulty can't be the reason as there's been fewer major multi-mountain stages that would require the max time cut in the first two weeks of the Vuelta than either the Giro or Tour, and it can't be the pace as the Tour was faster than this. Could it be the heat? That's one factor in the Vuelta that needs to be considered? But then, it hasn't been as hot as the start of the 2011 or 2012 Vueltas either, which didn't see the same kind of problem, and they haven't even been south of Madrid yet, so there haven't been any of 'those' Vuelta stages, long and in baking heat on the meseta with next to no protection from the elements.

I find it worrying that Guillén has given in and publicly ceded the 'difficulty' matter, so that it opens the door for riders to protest the difficulty of future stages if he tries to present legit major mountain stages. He already neutered the most anticipated stage of the whole race (stage 13, which went from a tricky medium mountain stage to a day off), we don't need to encourage him to do more of that.

 

[yaco]

I believe the organisers should have made a stand by ejecting the riders, as you could guarantee it would never happen again - The downside is that a reduced peleton will lead to conservative racing until close to the final sprint or climb - Then the same people in this forum would still have a whinge.

 

[carton]

Re:

I get the impression that Froome likes proper racing, as long as it's not too proper. Going on a safari, not living in the wild. Indoor climbing, rather than going to the Himalayas.

A man after my own heart, then, having never survived on my wits and my flint knife, nor scaled the 14 eight thousanders

I'll credit glampers and the flashpackers more than zoo-goers and the decameroners, as well. In any case I think he thinks he means it, which is more than could likely be said for others put in the same position.

As to what happened, as Koen de Kort pointed out, when Sky gave up and no one else took up the chase, they knew right there and then most of them weren't going to make it. I wasn't that there was no incentive for most of the teams not to chase, there was an incentive for most of the teams not to tow Konig and Froome's teammates back to the bunch. With the last 25km being all uphill, they had to get to Biescas with at least 10 minutes to spare in order to have a chance. While not getting to within say, ten minutes of that second group. And even then, a lot of guys would have gotten dropped.

But while I don't have a problem with them being outside the time limit, it's the 20 minutes outside of the time limit that grates. I think this at least serves as a heads up that there might not be safety in numbers next time.

 

[mjreck]

Re:

So for half the péloton they get a rest day on Tuesday, a pseudo-rest day on Friday, a pseudo-rest day on Sunday, a rest day on Tuesday, and another pseudo-rest day on Sunday before the race is over.

The claims of exceptional circumstances that merit allowing the riders to essentially hold race organizers to ransom by gathering in a group large enough they know the organizers can't throw them out and daring them are similar to the Extreme Weather Protocol nonsense from March. At least that time the riders had the argument that it was about safety to hide behind; here there's nothing, other than that they didn't want to have to make any effort because they'd been forced to ride one (that's ONE) real mountain stage.

This is an endurance sport. Even at Le Mans, where you can sit in the pit getting repairs for hours on end, if you don't complete a fixed percentage of the winner's distance you can't be a classified finisher. The riders are essentially protesting that they are being asked to show too much endurance, but the distance can't be the reason as there have been few 200km+ stages; the difficulty can't be the reason as there's been fewer major multi-mountain stages that would require the max time cut in the first two weeks of the Vuelta than either the Giro or Tour, and it can't be the pace as the Tour was faster than this. Could it be the heat? That's one factor in the Vuelta that needs to be considered? But then, it hasn't been as hot as the start of the 2011 or 2012 Vueltas either, which didn't see the same kind of problem, and they haven't even been south of Madrid yet, so there haven't been any of 'those' Vuelta stages, long and in baking heat on the meseta with next to no protection from the elements.

I find it worrying that Guillén has given in and publicly ceded the 'difficulty' matter, so that it opens the door for riders to protest the difficulty of future stages if he tries to present legit major mountain stages. He already neutered the most anticipated stage of the whole race (stage 13, which went from a tricky medium mountain stage to a day off), we don't need to encourage him to do more of that.

I'm living only an hour to the east of Sabiñanigo. Couldn't get to the stage live because of work (don't get me started ), but the temperatures have been abnormally high for September for the last week, mid 30's everyday (don't know fahrenheit, apologies!). It's not been pleasant, although like you said, it's usually alot worse further south (mid 40s today anywhere south of Madrid).
Don't know if it was hot enough to force such a slow pace, but it definitely didn't encourage a high pace.

 

[Robert5091]

Rules are friggin' rules and if they're not applied it becomes a mockery.

Froome's tweet about the 93 should have been thrown out, is to me a cynical PR move by Sky Management. That Froome did not seem to go on the front once in the chasing group and let Astana and Orica do the work would not please others. They're afraid they'll have to close the sun roof on the car in case of "golden showers" or worse.

If the Sky train steams full speed up the last climb on Wednesday it'll cause a real bad feeling with many.

 

[mjreck]

Re: Re:

The Dawg has chimed in (twitter):"Froome said he believes the 93 riders should have been cut from Vuelta".

I tend to believe him. He seems to enjoy proper racing. Don't think he would enjoy being the only one flying solo, though.

Also, it's very easy to say such things in hindsight knowing that you're not the only one left and your boys were literally in the laughing group all day... fresh as daisies to go full gas for the rest of the Vuelta... Sure other teams were complicit, but he's the only one realistically riding for the top step...

This may also just be a comment actually directed towards his Sky-team mates...

In sense of : "You bastards left me to die a slow death alone - if you are that useless, you could as well be off the race!" (David Lopez not included obviously)

Haha, that's what I was thinking aswell! I'm sure what he really wanted was 93 out with the opportunity to personally strangle about half a dozen :lol:

 

[Angliru]

Re:

Rules are friggin' rules and if they're not applied it becomes a mockery.

Froome's tweet about the 93 should have been thrown out, is to me a cynical PR move by Sky Management. That Froome did not seem to go on the front once in the chasing group and let Astana and Orica do the work would not please others. They're afraid they'll have to close the sun roof on the car in case of "golden showers" or worse.

If the Sky train steams full speed up the last climb on Wednesday it'll cause a real bad feeling with many.

The timing of his comments seems a bit tardy to me unless he was actually quoted from the same day of the events. His statement would have had a much stronger impact had they been made the day of the event after he had composed himself from the day's devastation.

I recall he did spend some time with his nose in the wind in the chasing group and of course we are not privileged to see every minute of all the various groups' activities on the road.

 

[djpbaltimore]

It is funny that Froome can be criticized even when he agrees with the vast majority of the posters in the thread.

 

[peloton]

Re:

The only fair decision would have been to apply the rules. If they were usually enforced, none of this would have happened.

This.
Had the grupetto made some effort and finish inside say couple of minutes, I could understand the logic (heat, hard stage etc) for keeping the big group in a little bit better.
But this was just insulting and cycling is not helping itself at all.

 

[ice&fire]

I don't know if this has been quoted before in the thread or elsewhere. Contador compared at the end of the stage his power meter figures with those of his teammate Jesús Hernández. Hernández completed the stage having spent less than half the energy than Contador.

http://www.elmundo.es/deportes/2016/09/06/57cefd6bca4741c41e8b463b.html

 

[avanti]

Maybe someone pointed this out earlier in the thread. Big delays between the first and last racers cause problems with rolling road closures.

 

[SeriousSam]

Should be booted out of the Vuelta with extreme prejudice for the same reason that you don't negotiate with terrorists