Should the grupetto have been DQ'd on Stage 15?

Page 12 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.

Should the grupetto have been DQ'd on Stage 15?

  • YES

    Votes: 146 78.9%
  • NO

    Votes: 39 21.1%

  • Total voters
    185
Jul 25, 2012
12,967
1,970
25,680
Re: Re:

saunaking said:
So the only teams you want to penalise are the teams that usually do all the work in the mountains? Seems sensible...

not sure if thats sarcasm or what but 'usually' is irrelevant. the point is to punish those SPECIFICALLY who missed the timecut in such a situation where you can't or wont remove them from the race.

That's not what you suggested though is it? Do you think riders finishing an hour after the winner care about their GC time? Your suggestion is only a punishment to people competing for the GC which is not anyone finishing outside a time limit. You even go so far as wanting to punish riders who did finish within the time limit. It's ridiculous. You'll just end up with a load of people sat on the wheel of anyone who has someone doing well on the GC, comfortable in the knowledge that a) they won't get thrown out and b) they don't have to work because they couldn't care less about losing GC time.
 
Mar 13, 2015
179
0
0
Here's my thought.

a rider who finishes out of the time limit, if reinstated by the race commissioners, will be ineligible for victory in the next stage.

Of course, several teams could save their energy to help their gc contender the next stage. but, this way, they can't lag one day in order to save energy for the next stage victory.
 
Nov 16, 2011
426
0
0
Shame said:
Here's my thought.

a rider who finishes out of the time limit, if reinstated by the race commissioners, will be ineligible for victory in the next stage.

Of course, several teams could save their energy to help their gc contender the next stage. but, this way, they can't lag one day in order to save energy for the next stage victory.

Shouldn't need to have additional rules when existing ones work just fine. Riders outside the time limit should simply be removed, period. Else, adding on more new rules won't make any difference when you have the powers that be just change them whenever they feel like, even in light of compelling evidence of the rules being willfully violated.
 
May 23, 2009
10,256
1,455
25,680
Re: Re:

mjreck said:
Libertine Seguros said:
So for half the péloton they get a rest day on Tuesday, a pseudo-rest day on Friday, a pseudo-rest day on Sunday, a rest day on Tuesday, and another pseudo-rest day on Sunday before the race is over.

The claims of exceptional circumstances that merit allowing the riders to essentially hold race organizers to ransom by gathering in a group large enough they know the organizers can't throw them out and daring them are similar to the Extreme Weather Protocol nonsense from March. At least that time the riders had the argument that it was about safety to hide behind; here there's nothing, other than that they didn't want to have to make any effort because they'd been forced to ride one (that's ONE) real mountain stage.

This is an endurance sport. Even at Le Mans, where you can sit in the pit getting repairs for hours on end, if you don't complete a fixed percentage of the winner's distance you can't be a classified finisher. The riders are essentially protesting that they are being asked to show too much endurance, but the distance can't be the reason as there have been few 200km+ stages; the difficulty can't be the reason as there's been fewer major multi-mountain stages that would require the max time cut in the first two weeks of the Vuelta than either the Giro or Tour, and it can't be the pace as the Tour was faster than this. Could it be the heat? That's one factor in the Vuelta that needs to be considered? But then, it hasn't been as hot as the start of the 2011 or 2012 Vueltas either, which didn't see the same kind of problem, and they haven't even been south of Madrid yet, so there haven't been any of 'those' Vuelta stages, long and in baking heat on the meseta with next to no protection from the elements.

I find it worrying that Guillén has given in and publicly ceded the 'difficulty' matter, so that it opens the door for riders to protest the difficulty of future stages if he tries to present legit major mountain stages. He already neutered the most anticipated stage of the whole race (stage 13, which went from a tricky medium mountain stage to a day off), we don't need to encourage him to do more of that.

I'm living only an hour to the east of Sabiñanigo. Couldn't get to the stage live because of work (don't get me started :mad:), but the temperatures have been abnormally high for September for the last week, mid 30's everyday (don't know fahrenheit, apologies!). It's not been pleasant, although like you said, it's usually alot worse further south (mid 40s today anywhere south of Madrid).
Don't know if it was hot enough to force such a slow pace, but it definitely didn't encourage a high pace.
So, standard - even mild - TDU conditions then? By my reckoning there's about 40-45 guys racing the Vuelta who rode the TDU this year alone plus a few others (eg: Valverde, Bennati, Kiserlovski, Hermans, Arashiro) who've made the trip more than once, so it's not like these guys can't race in the heat. At the TDU there may not always be the luxury of acclimatisation either...
 
Oct 5, 2010
4,282
327
16,180
SeriousSam said:
Should be booted out of the Vuelta with extreme prejudice for the same reason that you don't negotiate with terrorists
lmfao yes!!!!
 
Sep 17, 2015
104
0
0
Re: Re:

mjreck said:
seldon71 said:
S2Sturges said:
carton said:
The Dawg has chimed in (twitter):"Froome said he believes the 93 riders should have been cut from Vuelta".

I tend to believe him. He seems to enjoy proper racing. Don't think he would enjoy being the only one flying solo, though.


Also, it's very easy to say such things in hindsight knowing that you're not the only one left and your boys were literally in the laughing group all day... fresh as daisies to go full gas for the rest of the Vuelta... Sure other teams were complicit, but he's the only one realistically riding for the top step...

This may also just be a comment actually directed towards his Sky-team mates...

In sense of : "You bastards left me to die a slow death alone - if you are that useless, you could as well be off the race!" (David Lopez not included obviously)

Haha, that's what I was thinking aswell! I'm sure what he really wanted was 93 out with the opportunity to personally strangle about half a dozen :lol:


Yes..... I got a strong 'Headmaster talking to Local Paper after his kids smash up school bus' vibe from his comment. I am pretty sure they had an 'assembly' the night before in the Hotel, and he and Dave were screaming 'You know what? you DESERVED to get DQ'd after today..'

May I ask - does Sky have a 'Road Captain' in this squad?
 
Jul 16, 2010
420
0
0
Re:

Miburo said:
Hopefully they also ban Astana for their riding today

I don't think they'll apply the rules sadly enough

Why would Astana be banned for doing what they are there for - participating in a bike race? They had a top-10 position to defend.
 
May 29, 2014
34
0
0
Another idea for a fitting punishment!

Seeing as most of the peloton seemed more interested in a bit of cyclotourism than racing, why not, for the following stages, make them race with a couple of panniers on the bike. And for every minute over the time limit, 1 kilo of weight is added to the panniers. And to get rid of the weight, 1 kilo and eventually the panniers are removed for every minute you finish under the time limit in proceeding stages.
A fair punishment I believe, as it effects everyone in the grupetto evenly, and it'd make them use up the energy they saved the previous day.
Plus, think of the spectacle of Drucker winning the next stage with 20+kilos in a couple of panniers hanging off the bike! :D
 
Jun 10, 2010
19,894
2,254
25,680
Re:

King Boonen said:
https://rouleur.cc/journal/racing/vuelta-blog-larry-warbasse-and-time-cut


Weasel words and ridiculous attempts to justify his (and by association) their actions.
The way he twists reality to attack EVERYONE OUTSIDE THE GRUPETTO is frankly disgusting.

It also shows EXACTLY why the pardon was a terrible idea. Warbasse, right here, in front of everyone, is saying riders should be proud of their ability to boycott races whenever they fancy. "UNITY, Y'ALL". What an utter perversion of what that means.
 
Mar 10, 2009
9,245
23
17,530
Re:

King Boonen said:
https://rouleur.cc/journal/racing/vuelta-blog-larry-warbasse-and-time-cut


Weasel words and ridiculous attempts to justify his (and by association) their actions.

So his and their excuse is that they were operating under the belief that there was a rule that stated that if a certain percentage of peloton finishes beyond the time limit that they are safe? A belief of a rule that could've easily been verified via their radio transmitters. Their directors should've known this rule did not exist but allowed them to casually roll along anyway. Taking advantage of their numbers and the likelihood that the race organizers wouldn't have the balls to eject the whole lot, thus giving them a rest day that those that actually raced the full route wouldn't have, and giving them an advantage in the final week.
 
Jul 25, 2012
12,967
1,970
25,680
It's like reading a statement from Tim Cook on the Ireland tax issue, or a politician who has been found to have millions in an off-shore holding company "I didn't brake any rules"...

His attempts to elicit an emotional response are also ridiculous:

"Almost everyone had a leader in front, so why would we chase behind?" - No one expected you to chase, they just expected you to work enough to finish within the time limit, like the grupetto has to do on EVERY stage.

"Regardless of how people define ‘unpredictable’ or ‘force majeure’, there is room for leeway, and this was definitely a special case." - It's very obvious that the special case clause is included to account for things outwith anyones control. Farmers blocking roads, serious accidents, huge weather changes between groups etc. Purposefully breaking rules is not a special case.

"Sure, there are many of us that could have ridden harder and reached the finish line within the time limit, but we chose not to do it that day. We made a decision as a group to stick together; to cross the finish line with our fellow riders – those on our own team as well as others, rather than as warring enemies. Too often we do the latter." - No one expects the grupetto to attack each other, this is just rubbish. In fact, most fans hope that the grupetto help each other out and they do, with teams giving other rider food and drink and riders who are stronger taking longer pulls on the front. If someone is truly tired then let them sit in and help them finish.

"But that day, those of us who could have gone faster up the climbs, or risked our lives on the descents" - Apart from the fact that in reality every descent can be risking you life, again no one expects people to put themselves in danger and if the group had actually ridden there would have been no more danger than there is on any descent.

"I can assure you that if our group rode 20 minutes faster that day, the preceding results would not have changed. The 94 riders would be no more fatigued than we already are. We would, however, be less aware of the power we hold." This is frankly insulting to many who have gone before and had serious concerns over rider safety and treatment. Complaints about the riders power to determine racing conditions are valid when there is a danger to their health or lives if they are forced to continue. That is not the case here, it was no more dangerous than the average mountain stage.


The worst thing is, if the day really was incredibly tough and riders were dropping like flies, many of us would have been calling for the time limit to be suspended or extended to let the riders in. We would happily argue that they have obviously been in a tough race and the effort they have put in shows how much this means to them.


The kindest thing I can say about that article is that it is extremely poorly considered and written without a real reflection on the situation in the grand scheme of bike racing. I won't say the worst I could say about it...
 
Feb 10, 2015
5,932
803
19,680
Re:

King Boonen said:
https://rouleur.cc/journal/racing/vuelta-blog-larry-warbasse-and-time-cut


Weasel words and ridiculous attempts to justify his (and by association) their actions.
I found this passage hilarious :
It seems that every time the majority of the peloton reaches unity, something many riders continuously preach for, many of those very riders spit in the soup. Whether those outside of our group liked it or not, our group achieved unity that day, and that is something we should be proud of. For once we were not the pawns in their game, but the orchestrator of ours.

Sure, there are many of us that could have ridden harder and reached the finish line within the time limit, but we chose not to do it that day. We made a decision as a group to stick together; to cross the finish line with our fellow riders – those on our own team as well as others, rather than as warring enemies. Too often we do the latter.

But that day, those of us who could have gone faster up the climbs, or risked our lives on the descents, decided that we, as a group, were more powerful than individuals. It was an unintentional protest.

Much of the cycling world may not agree with how we rode the stage that day, but our lack of speed showed our increasing power. Each time we band together, we show that we are not powerless. And if we continue to support each other, to work together for the betterment of the sport that we all love, we have the power to make the changes we would like to see happen.
He's talking like some union guy, à la Bookwalter, in order to be more comfortable with himself and his shameful ride.

It's not about extreme weather conditions this time, Larry. It's about ninety riders racing a normal Vuelta stage like they were on a Sunday ride. He doesn't even care about disrespecting the Vuelta. Unbelievable.
 
Mar 31, 2015
10,190
4,951
28,180
He's disrespecting the vuelta and the other riders (to me the most important of their crimes). Yet he talks of unity between cyclists. Laughable really. Protest against what?
 
Aug 4, 2014
2,370
260
11,880
King Boonen does a great job at offering a reasoned response to Warbasse's post. But you guys are underrating the power of cognitive dissonance. It's a real thing, and it happens to all of us. Under the circumstances, it's easy to conflate the desire to see a more unified peloton with more of a say on the rules that apply to them, with the desire to just take a day off because it's hot and hilly and there seems to be no point carrying on.

And there's a real dynamic in the peloton that the post (and Koen de Kort's comments more acutely) get at, whereupon the fitter guys and the better climbers can't so easily go off on there own. There's real pressure being pressed upon them by their friends and teammates not to do that, since that could very well mean signing their tickets home. And the basic solidarity that yielding to that evidences isn't onto itself a bad thing at all. It's the perfidious rule that brings this about this behavior that's to blame. If the rule was clear cut, Warbasse could just say: "I'm sorry guys, but we need to start riding this out, let's punch it from now on, just try to keep on my wheel". But that first bit is just not true, given the current application of the rules.

The call-to-arms tone is, however, definitely quite off-key. I won't begrudge him that since he is fighting himself and the road day after day in a grand tour, killing himself for a contract, so as he readily admits he might not be at his most objective. But while the power of dozens of rider is something to behold, the power of millions of fans going "this is BS" is not without consequence. As the more experienced riders will know.
 
Jul 25, 2012
12,967
1,970
25,680
Thanks Carton, I've tried to remain level headed with it although you can probably tell by my posts it's made me very angry which is actually very difficult!

I can understand what you say and agree with it. The problem is there is a difference between shepherding home your slower friends (such as what happens with the sprinters in every GT stage with mountains) and slacking off to the point where a cat 4 club racer could keep up with you. It's insulting to the race, to riders who bother to make the effort and insulting to the fans watching. I think I heard average speeds of 30-31kmh for the grupetto. In all honesty, I could probably do that.
 
Aug 4, 2014
2,370
260
11,880
Re:

King Boonen said:
I can understand what you say and agree with it. The problem is there is a difference between shepherding home your slower friends (such as what happens with the sprinters in every GT stage with mountains) and slacking off to the point where a cat 4 club racer could keep up with you. It's insulting to the race, to riders who bother to make the effort and insulting to the fans watching. I think I heard average speeds of 30-31kmh for the grupetto. In all honesty, I could probably do that.
I don't doubt it. And I agree with you that it was disgraceful and it needs to be stamped out. I was trying to provide some context for Warbasse's rationalizations, particularly given that some of the posters are really zooming in on Dombroski, Warbasse, Konig et alia for not pushing it, without in my view taking into account that without a clear cut rule, the pack dynamics get complicated. And also point out that in my view, it has to be up to the power that be to sort it out, not the riders.

I liken it to a grade school teacher I had, that used to rest his feet on the desk and read a newspaper during exams. One day he figured out that over half the class had cheated on a test (same wrong answer). He turned on the blow drier at everyone, not just including, but particularly, those who didn't cheat but didn't snitch. I think it was a canned speech he must've delivered every year. I tried as hard as I could not to laugh. Those weren't random strangers, those were my friends and classmates. Who I mostly knew and liked, and in any case was stuck with for a few more years. There's just no possible way I'm going to screw over my friends and possibly take a beating in the playground because you're far too lazy to do your darn job. If you want anything even resembling that from me, you've got to, at the very least, pretend you care.
 
Feb 20, 2010
33,064
15,272
28,180
So why doesn't the bunch just, you know, ride slower in the flatter days, like the old days of the Vuelta? When you had "those" stages in baking heat, with somebody from Andalucía-CajaSur riding off alone 16 minutes ahead of the field then the bunch dawdling for a while so they didn't suffer too much, then reeling in the small break? This would also have the effect of giving the riders a bigger time gap to get to the finish in and although the longer stage would mean the tolerance % of time would be smaller, the amount of leftover energy to fight to make the time cut would be higher.

Farrar's argument that everything is too hard now is at odds with the actuality of the course, where as usual the Vuelta has produced hard finales in lieu of stages that are difficult all the way through. Sunday's stage is not particularly hard and the péloton's uniting around its ability to basically invoke a go-slow to protest a difficult route is entirely at odds with a) the history of the sport, and b) the actual racing that has gone on in this race, since their go-slow protest of the difficulty of the race came just two days after they had another go-slow protests. I know that Spain is full of those uncategorized "bonus bumps" and that unless you're up on the meseta very little that looks flat truly is, but that's also part of racing in Spain. You know that going in. It's why the country's produced so few great sprinters, and those it has done have been guys like Tarzán Sáez and Óscar Freire who are durable. But there are very few 200km+ stages at the Vuelta, the stage they protested was the shortest road stage other than the flat parade, and you know, saying we should praise the péloton because it achieved unity in refusing to take one of the biggest stage races of the year seriously is to miss entirely the point of why so many fans are angered by it. It's the fact that the péloton has united in refusing to obey the rules and pretending that you didn't know about that rule (which is clearly belied by the pride Warbasse shows in the effectiveness of their unintentional protest) that irritates. And the fact that there is a clear exclusion towards those riders outside the grupetto without GC interest who felt slighted that their efforts to survive have in fact hurt them since they are punished for actually trying to make it inside the time limit by being more tired than riders who refused to try, or those inside the grupetto who did at least briefly try to get them to ride. I mean, it wasn't like they said "let's go for it, but not taking any unnecessary risks", which would be fair enough. They cruised in 20 minutes outside the time cut. They could have climbed like Ivan Quaranta and descended like Ivan Basso and not lost as much time as they did if they were trying in the areas it was safe to and not taking risks they didn't have to. They might have missed the time cut, but it wouldn't have caused the kind of arguments that this has, it would just be another day when the grupetto didn't make it in time. Instead, they decided to flaunt their inability to make time, taunting the race organizers.

The other issue is that what the riders are supposedly protesting is how goddamn hard the Vuelta has been, much of which isn't really seen by the fans, when we see several days of the péloton giving the breakaway more than enough rope to get away comfortably over and over again that was reminding me of 2009. The only stages won by the GC elites have been Lagos de Covadonga and Peña Cabarga, both effectively one-climb stages, although I guess you could count the one Yates won given his current GC position. Formigal is a bit of a special case, admittedly, also. But if it were really about the insane pace that Movistar and Sky are drilling at the front that makes it so hard for the riders that they need to have three rest days out of five, then those breaks would be brought back. Maybe it's just about the poor pacing of stages and their layout, with lots of cumulative ascent but none of it at relevant times, but it seems absurd to be protesting the difficulty of a race on a 120km stage when they've just had the ONLY truly tough multi-col stage of the entire race. It's not like it came off the back of Zoncolan-Gardeccia in 2011, or Pampeago-Fedaia-Kronplatz in 2008, where I could see the reasoning at least.

At least with the Extreme Weather Protocol stuff they had the excuse of using safety as a pretext, but incidents like this are going to - not unreasonably - spark in many fans a view of the riders as wanting to be pampered. From Cavendish moaning that the Vuelta has become stupid because there aren't enough sprint stages to Warbasse indulging himself on people power, it reeks of a desire for easier, more comfortable racing. Maybe it isn't like that, but surely they must be aware how it's perceived. Yes, I know I haven't turned a pedal in anger, but it's not like this Vuelta is an abnormally difficult GT; in fact, as PRC has shown, the Vuelta has consistently had the least accumulated climbing in its toughest mountains out of all three GTs for the last six seasons consecutively. Yes, I appreciate the Vuelta is in September, it's the end of a long season for many. But you knew the parcours before you started, it's not like the Peace Race where they suddenly sprung the ski jump climb on the riders. The race as held is actually easier than presented thanks to the changes to stage 13 (even before the riders held another unofficial rest day on it). The Clinic argument doesn't wash either because the GTs were longer in the 80s too, which while far from clean were not doped to anything like the degree of the 90s and early 2000s routes. They'd often be much longer than the current races, while including sometimes up to 200km of time trialling.

It's hard to see what the riders exactly hoped to achieve. They've had their rest day, but at the expense of a lot of acceptance of the practice of time cut-hopping, because the degree of disregard they showed for the cut has actually put a lot of fans against them and rather than feeling sympathy for the riders because of the difficulty of the race, are feeling sympathy for the race organizers for having to put up with the riders holding them to ransom. Instead of making people want race organizers to reflect on what they make the riders do, instead the reaction has been more that people want the authorities to act to prevent riders from making a farce out of a historic and traditional race.
 
Jul 14, 2015
708
0
0
Formigal isn't even a special case, if anything it makes the case that there are a lot of teams in this Vuelta who just plain don't care. The whole of Direct Energie basically just sat up after 5km. And it was only a 120k stage!
 
May 22, 2010
111
0
8,830
They should literally decimate the field.

Like, they should make a determination whether the grupetto tried or not. For the most pathetic displays, they could send home 1 in 5 members of the grupetto at random. If they kind of phoned it in, and the race organizers want to send an early message, they could send home 1 in 10 or 1 in 20.

Even better, make it a team based lottery type thing. Put a team-chit in a hat for each rider in the grupetto to be penalized. Draw as many chits as the organizers want, based on the level of penalty to be applied. Leave the teams to decide which riders to sacrifice. Like a reverse draft lottery.
 
Jul 1, 2015
6,089
5,391
23,180
Re:

Teddy Boom said:
They should literally decimate the field.

Like, they should make a determination whether the grupetto tried or not. For the most pathetic displays, they could send home 1 in 5 members of the grupetto at random. If they kind of phoned it in, and the race organizers want to send an early message, they could send home 1 in 10 or 1 in 20.

Even better, make it a team based lottery type thing. Put a team-chit in a hat for each rider in the grupetto to be penalized. Draw as many chits as the organizers want, based on the level of penalty to be applied. Leave the teams to decide which riders to sacrifice. Like a reverse draft lottery.
It's much simpler than that. Let riders off the time limit to continue in the race but they shall be relegated to last position in all remaining stages. Don't bother trying to ride fast and cross the finish line first because you won't be awarded any price.
 
Jun 10, 2010
19,894
2,254
25,680
A team like Sky wouldn't even care much for that. And in most circumstances, where whole teams wouldn't be kicked out, having a few riders who can't compete but can still help their teammates wouldn't necessarily be much of a punishment for other teams.