Question Should Wout van Aert have waited at the top of Mont Ventoux???

[seldon71]

I can understand both sides of an argument, but Jumbo-Visma definitely lost a nice chance to make some serious GC damage by letting Wout to descend for a stage victory.

If he was stopped at the top (right after taking the mountain points), waited for Vingegaard, then pulled him back to Trek-Segafredos (only like 12-second gap) and then even got them to co-operate in working throughout the descend for a 4-man group (would have involved "selling" the stage), I believe they could have had almost a minute on Pogacar-Carapaz-Uran at the bottom. 40-45 secs , something like.

GC-wise that was absolutely THE THING to do and I believe it would've been something Kuss or Teunissen would have been forced to accept if they were in Van Aert's shoes.

But I do also understand that alienating one of the great stars of the team and whole cycling world who was about to win an unexpected glory of a "Queen stage" of TdF - something no one would've bet for...

Yeah, that would have been a huge risk to cause complications in upcoming times.


What do you think?

 

[ciranda]

Wout was already well down the descent by the time Vino got the gap (his name frankly isn't worth the effort). That's probably why Wout climbed so hard. If V had a gap when Wout was still going up then Wout should have been called back. Wout is a fine descender, he could have extended the gap and still won the stage. Wout was exceptional yesterday.

This post has six Wout's. If the abbreviation W had been used instead eighteen letters could have been saved. Just fifteen more letters were needed to write Vingegaard two times (or only six with use of the abbreviation V). That means three or NINE letters potentially saved. So in fact we must conclude that it's Wout that's not worth the effort.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Not in the Tour, but it has happened in the Giro. You probably remember this beauty from Cervelo Test Team. Serge Pauwels got ordered to wait, to help the fringe GC chances of Carlos Sastre.

View: https://youtu.be/-tfZTJQMM5Q

I of course agree with you that any outrage would have been completely justified, if Van Aert would have been ordered to drop back. Just like it was fair that Schotte and De Cauwer got quite upset in 2009.

Yes i know and remember. My brother blew a gasket.

 

[topcat]

Who is Jumbo's leader? Roglic-No, WVA-No,it's Mr V.
Who is the Ineos leader? Thomas-No, Hart- lol, Porte-you're shitting me, Carapaz- for now, a temporary little arrangement.
Who is the Trek leader? Nobody knows, it's a black hole.
There's a few twists and turns left in this tour.

 

[Leinster]

Vino is a different dude so a different abbreviation? Ving? Vinge?

Vingo.

Sounds like how Rob Hatch pronounces the full name anyway.

 

[BlueRoads]

Thinking about it I've changed my mind. Vingegaard, unlike Wout this year, is on my cq-team. So yes, Wout should have waited. He should do everything in his power to make sure Vingo finishes at least second.

 

[Bolder]

TJV: "Wout! Wait!"
WVP:"Why wait? Won't work!"
TJV: "Wout won't wait."

if everything had aligned he could have waited for Jonas, they could have caught the Trek guys, wout could win the sprint and all gained time. But the Trek guys wouldn't have worked so the likely outcome in that situation is Pogacar catches them and wins the stage and bonuses.

So, no.

 

[seldon71]

TJV: "Wout! Wait!"
WVP:"Why wait? Won't work!"
TJV: "Wout won't wait."

if everything had aligned he could have waited for Jonas, they could have caught the Trek guys, wout could win the sprint and all gained time. But the Trek guys wouldn't have worked so the likely outcome in that situation is Pogacar catches them and wins the stage and bonuses.

So, no.

Yeah, this is exactly why I wrote in the OP that they would have needed to sell the stage to Trekkers for co-operation...

Btw, I measured the exact time differences at the KoM Line

WvA 0:00
Treks +1:11
Vingo +1:25
Pogi + 2:03
Carapaz&Uran + 2:07

The full-fledged hammer-down collective effort of the 1st 4 riders should've definitely at least matched Carapaz&Uran downhill so it indeed was 40 to 45 seconds which Vingegaard was to gain.

And yes, given how far away he is from Pogacar, how untested he is as a 3-week rider, how big a star WvA is and how they should have "given up" the stage win to maximise time gain...

Probably the right decision was to do what they did. But it is also a decision they just MAY end up regretting in the end of the Tour. Not likely - rather very unlikely. But POSSIBLE.

 

[Leinster]

Yeah, this is exactly why I wrote in the OP that they would have needed to sell the stage to Trekkers for co-operation...

Btw, I measured the exact time differences at the KoM Line

WvA 0:00
Treks +1:11
Vingo +1:25
Pogi + 2:03
Carapaz&Uran + 2:07

The full-fledged hammer-down collective effort of the 1st 4 riders should've definitely at least matched Carapaz&Uran downhill so it indeed was 40 to 45 seconds which Vingegaard was to gain.

And yes, given how far away he is from Pogacar, how untested he is as a 3-week rider, how big a star WvA is and how they should have "given up" the stage win to maximise time gain...

Probably the right decision was to do what they did. But it is also a decision they just MAY end up regretting in the end of the Tour. Not likely - rather very unlikely. But POSSIBLE.

I don't think there's anything to regret at all, I think they made the right decision on the road. Maybe if Vingo had got a bit closer to the Trek lads, you'd consider calling up their DS and making an offer; "Wout's going to soft-pedal the descent. If your guys catch him with Vingo in the wheels and a 1.30 gap or more on Pogacar, you get the stage win. If you summit without Vingo, no deal."

J-V's DS would have had a handful of minutes from the time Vingo gapped Pogacar to the summit to relay this request to the Trek DS, get buy-in from the Trek riders, get buy-in from Wout (not guaranteed), and it still might not have worked; really, it'd need to be a yellow-jersey-gaining move to be worth giving up the stage win.

Worth remembering also that at the time Vingegaard attacked, Ben O'Connor was busily giving back 4 of the 5 minutes he had gained on stage 9. Jumbo would look real stupid giving up a win on the queen stage, for the sake of moving up from 3rd to 2nd, only to drop back to 6th on stage 15.

 

[T-Nielsen]

Short answer, without the f-bombs...

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0z_Qqnq8pI8

Careful.

You may be tempting quotes and they are not clean.

 

[OldCranky]

Short answer, without the f-bombs...

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0z_Qqnq8pI8

I'm not actually sure Don Logan's answer there is sufficiently emphatic.

 

[Valanga]

Not in the Tour, but it has happened in the Giro. You probably remember this beauty from Cervelo Test Team. Serge Pauwels got ordered to wait, to help the fringe GC chances of Carlos Sastre.

View: https://youtu.be/-tfZTJQMM5Q

I of course agree with you that any outrage would have been completely justified, if Van Aert would have been ordered to drop back. Just like it was fair that Schotte and De Cauwer got quite upset in 2009.

Fun fact: Serge Pauwels still got that victory after all when Bertagnolli got stripped of his victories by the UCI - in 2014.

It was ridiculous back then, it would have been even more ridiculous on Wednesday ;-)

 

[Valv.Piti]

I think Bjarne Riis is the only person in the entire world wanting Van Aert to wait.

Also, Danish commentators when Wout van Aert either wants to get in the break or sprint for himself... like they expect him to sit around Vingegaard for 2 weeks and do nothing. Do they think Jumbo is stupid enough to go full DSM and alienate their most valuable asset and a top-3 rider in the world? You have to give these kind of riders freedom, regardless of the bigger picture (which they also did last year with Rogla, thank god)

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I think Bjarne Riis is the only person in the entire world wanting Van Aert to wait.

Also, Danish commentators when Wout van Aert either wants to get in the break or sprint for himself... like they expect him to sit around Vingegaard for 2 weeks and do nothing. Do they think Jumbo is stupid enough to go full DSM and alienate their most valuable asset and a top-3 rider in the world? You have to give these kind of riders freedom, regardless of the bigger picture (which they also did last year with Rogla, thank god)

Has a lot of fuzz been made in Denmark that Van Aert didn't wait?

 

[inri2000]

Has a lot of fuzz been made in Denmark that Van Aert didn't wait?

Not really, there is a hope that WvA will sacrifice himself more on the remaining mountain stages now that he has his stage win, but the main gripe has been with Sepp Kuss.

 

[red_flanders]

I strongly feel like never, not even for Roglic, not even if the GC was on the line right then and there.

But the argument the other way is not as absurd as the poll result makes it look. It was also discussed in the stage thread yesterday.

I’d say the poll has it about right. Actually kind of blown away you could find 7 people to vote otherwise.

 

[Red Rick]

Not really, there is a hope that WvA will sacrifice himself more on the remaining mountain stages now that he has his stage win, but the main gripe has been with Sepp Kuss.

TIL Libertine is Danish?

 

[Eclipse]

There's only one team on the planet who could have convinced themselves that waiting at the top was the right thing to do and they don't race in black or yellow.

 

[Netserk]

He should have waited only if it was likely that a Tour win was on the line. So no.

 

[Publiuszam]

I adore CN forum polls

 

[Valv.Piti]

Not really, there is a hope that WvA will sacrifice himself more on the remaining mountain stages now that he has his stage win, but the main gripe has been with Sepp Kuss.

Yeah, Sepp Kuss and Kruijswijk should absolutely have no personal ambitions - they are only here to help, since they both are quite horrible atm as well and stand no chance. But you can just sense whenever any Jumbo rider is trying to get up the road, the commentators seem sceptic (despite Cort trying to do the exact same on a day like today, riding for a team which is 2nd on GC). Van Aert on the other hand should definitely have all the freedom in the world on this stage.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

There's only one team on the planet who could have convinced themselves that waiting at the top was the right thing to do and they don't race in black or yellow.

Do they have a tendency to go with blue kits?

 

[IndianCyclist]

Pogacar has a 5 min gap which is a very comfortable gap. the best Vingegard can hope for is 2nd, Jumbo probably aren't interested in 2nd. A stage win gives their sponsors to be at the front and considerably boosts the morale in the team after the disaster the TDF has been for them. So reducing the chances/sacrificing a stage win for 1 min gain in the GC does not make any sense. If Pogacar cracks and he will have to crack like Landis to lose GC and time loss in this stage is irrelevant. If he keeps losing time(30s-1min), there are not enough Mountain stages to lose 4 min.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Pogacar has a 5 min gap which is a very comfortable gap. the best Vingegard can hope for is 2nd, Jumbo probably aren't interested in 2nd. A stage win gives their sponsors to be at the front and considerably boosts the morale in the team after the disaster the TDF has been for them. So reducing the chances/sacrificing a stage win for 1 min gain in the GC does not make any sense. If Pogacar cracks and he will have to crack like Landis to lose GC and time loss in this stage is irrelevant. If he keeps losing time(30s-1min), there are not enough Mountain stages to lose 4 min.

The Tour was halfway at that point. Not only is Vingegaard still an unproven rider over 3 week GC, even if he looks to be going very strong and is likely to keep it up, but with so many riders crashing or getting sick, it would have been quite a gamble to sacrifice the queen stage, just to see him crash out 5 days later, or get sick, or lose track of a potential podium. If this were stage 20, it would also have been completely different, because that move could be de difference between 4th or 2nd. And only if the team would value that over a win, and risk upsetting one of its key riders.

 

[Bonimenier]

If you let Vingegaard wait on Roglic in stage 3 and lose over a minute because you don't consider him a real contender, you can't make van Aert wait and throw away the Mt Ventoux stage to maybe take 30 seconds with Vingegaard. If you're JV, you take every victory you can after such a disastrous first week otherwise you may end up with nothing at the end.

 

[houtdffan]

Absolutely he should have waited. Cost his now team leader a full minute and a likely stage win.

The 1 rider who could put Pogacar in trouble not receiving the proper support from his team