Sky/Froome Talk Only (No Way Sky Are Cleans?)

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May 26, 2009
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Just posted this comment to the " Cycling Weekly " site regarding the move of the final sprint on Saturday !
"Once again the " Guidebook of a Grand Tour " is changed at the " Whim " of a minor official ! Looking at the TV one sees very few fans on the roadside and those only because they choose a point where they can have a chat whilst awaiting the arrival of the racers . Previously i have tried to " educate " some of these tour organisers in my blogs but i doubt they can read even with " Google Translate " ! Moving the "Sprint" would have meant any " fans " planning to be there either left confused or touring up and down the road looking for the new location or perhaps going home to the TV !

"Guidebooks " are put together for the teams to plan and the Media to publish in a timely manner ! That means letting the parties concerned know the " NIGHT BEFORE " not " of by the way " !

That SKY personnel reading the guidebook in the team car and forgot the announcement or were unaware is unimportant . Should Chis have got the timing right and scored " seconds " will only be relevant on Sunday !

OF COURSE WHO AM I TO CRITICISE THE " EXPERTS "!
 
May 3, 2010
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Where is 'unbelievable' icon

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=677425#post677425

halamala said:
Vuelta a Espana 2011, Stage 17, Final climb Pena Cabarga

Chris Froome

From 6 Km banner to 3 Km banner [Distance 3.0 Km]


Elevation / Höhenmeter [m] : 280 m [Source]
Distance / Streckenlänge [Km] : 3.0 Km [Source]
Time in seconds / Fahrzeit in Sekunden [sec] : 525 = 8 min 45 sec = 8:45
Weight rider / Gewicht Fahrer [kg] : 72 kg
Weight bicycle, clothes etc. / Gewicht Fahrrad [kg] : 8 kg

Grade / mittlere Seigung : 9.3 %
Average speed / mittlere Geschwindigkeit : 20.5 Km/h
Total weight / Gesamtgewicht : 80.0 kg

Power : 486.9 Watt
Power / kg : 6.7 Watt / kg


From 2 Km banner to the finish line

Elevation / Höhenmeter [m] : 225 m
Distance / Streckenlänge [Km] : 2.0 Km
Time in seconds / Fahrzeit in Sekunden [sec] : 375 = 6 min 15 sec = 6:15
Weight rider / Gewicht Fahrer [kg] : 72 kg
Weight bicycle, clothes etc. / Gewicht Fahrrad [kg] : 8 kg

Grade / mittlere Seigung : 11.2 %
Average speed / mittlere Geschwindigkeit : 19.2 Km/h
Total weight / Gesamtgewicht : 80.0 kg

Power : 529.2 Watt
Power / kg : 7.3 Watt / kg


From 1 Km banner to the finish line

Elevation / Höhenmeter [m] : 120 m
Distance / Streckenlänge [Km] : 1.0 Km
Time in seconds / Fahrzeit in Sekunden [sec] : 204 = 3 min 24 sec = 3:24
Weight rider / Gewicht Fahrer [kg] : 72 kg
Weight bicycle, clothes etc. / Gewicht Fahrrad [kg] : 8 kg

Grade / mittlere Seigung : 12.0 %
Average speed / mittlere Geschwindigkeit : 17.6 Km/h
Total weight / Gesamtgewicht : 80.0 kg

Power : 510.0 Watt
Power / kg : 7.0 Watt / kg


Source: [ http://www.rst.mp-all.de/bergauf.htm ]


I think that 2 Km banner is located in a wrong place.
 
May 20, 2010
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I guess people who are saying NewsCorp demand results are obviously not aware about all the extra stuff that Sky are doing outside Procycling for cycling in the UK.

I'm sure the whole thing is actually just a tax right off for them for some sort of green initiative.
 
Mrs John Murphy said:
Or they don't give a **** about riders charging and that all that anti-doping stuff was just PR bull**** for the naive, gullible nationalist fanboys.
To be fair, they did drop that anti-doping thing quietly in the offseason, probably because it's nigh on impossible to find experienced DSes who weren't riding in the height of the EPO era. Besides, it had already been exposed when Michael Barry's name was connected to Landis' accusations. Once they signed Mick Rogers, anybody that couldn't see through it was only fooling themselves.

Not that I think Team Sky are a doping team, far from it. I think they may be on the way to becoming one of those "don't ask don't tell" teams.

Getting on towards the second week, Froome's performances were becoming funnier and funnier. By the time he's the first rider we see on Peña Cabarga it's beyond a joke. The guy's only notable climbing performances to date were a podium in the Tour Med climb to Mont Faron - which is in February so not exactly representative, and scraping the top 10 in a pretty untaxing climb in Romandie and a stage of Brixia against some less than stellar opposition.
 
Jul 10, 2009
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Froome quite questionable

hrotha said:
Wiggins doesn't stand out to me because I'm used to him now, but Froome's performance is weird indeed.
From a domestique about to be chopped to a grand tour competitor? In the space of months or weeks. His recovery was amazing and attacks on steep slopes was really too good. Doesn't add up. I don't buy any hard work, it takes time (years) to develop to that level. He is evidence that sports authorities for all the good work still have way to go to catch up with athletes.
 
Jul 30, 2009
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meh

I really hoped he would go off to Bjarne. Where he would have won a GT for sure.

One-eyed Wiggo fanboy I may be, but I always keep Boardman's rule in mind (if it looks to good to be true, it probably is).

Of course he could have been doing the numbers the whole time and lacked the correct winning mentality :rolleyes: Come on - even Sky dont believe that surely? Based on the Vuelta he should have been in the pursuit and smashing the WR and I dont believe they would have kept quiet about it.

Of course, If I'm wrong, then hurrah and I apologise profusely, but cycling doesnt tend to let you down in that regard :(
 
I'd feel a lot better about it if Sky would publish these mysterious "numbers" from training months ago that said he was capable of doing it. As long as they don't, it just makes it look like they're just trying to justify it without having to back up their statements.

Otherwise, it just looks like we have a new Andreas Klöden - probably dodgy, and suddenly improving very well when a contract is due.
 
Libertine Seguros said:
I'd feel a lot better about it if Sky would publish these mysterious "numbers" from training months ago that said he was capable of doing it. As long as they don't, it just makes it look like they're just trying to justify it without having to back up their statements.

Otherwise, it just looks like we have a new Andreas Klöden - probably dodgy, and suddenly improving very well when a contract is due.
Don't worry you'll get a Coyle type report before you know it with all the right numbers and anecdotes about extra long thigh bones.
 
Mar 19, 2010
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One thing that seems to be ignored by the forum are two facts:

1-The prevalence of the scientific method in improving performance.
2-The hierarchical nature of cycling.

There are no "clean" or "dirty" team just teams that use different methods. Some permitted, others not. There is nothing to suggest that methods implemented by Team Sky are not permitted or otherwise.

There is nothing to suggest that Froome is nothing more than an extremely talented domestique rising to prominence (and upsetting the status quo by the looks!). -It's very hard to have a good result when you're worked other the first 3hrs of every race.

Why was he never given an opportunity before you'll ask? Because people are people and the people who payed him told him to jump in the breaks and drill it on the front for the sake of someone they favored. This time he was given the opportunity to help Wiggins in the key mountainous stages.
 
Jul 1, 2011
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Fester said:
One thing that seems to be ignored by the forum are two facts:

1-The prevalence of the scientific method in improving performance.
2-The hierarchical nature of cycling.

There are no "clean" or "dirty" team just teams that use different methods. Some permitted, others not. There is nothing to suggest that methods implemented by Team Sky are not permitted or otherwise.

There is nothing to suggest that Froome is nothing more than an extremely talented domestique rising to prominence (and upsetting the status quo by the looks!). -It's very hard to have a good result when you're worked other the first 3hrs of every race.

Why was he never given an opportunity before you'll ask? Because people are people and the people who payed him told him to jump in the breaks and drill it on the front for the sake of someone they favored. This time he was given the opportunity to help Wiggins in the key mountainous stages.
Yeah that sounds reasonable... I'm sure he always had that GT win in him but somehow Team Sky with their super-cool scientific approach to cycling didn't notice it... He's come a long way from being a completely average domestique to a GT contender. There is no way he has been on this level before, people would notice...
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Mrs John Murphy said:
Discuss.

Some 'unbelievable' performances from Sky this weekend.

Wiggins climbing like the second coming of Armstrong. Froome's ITT. A British USP?

Or is it all down to weight loss and good positioning on the bike?
Personally I am fed up with Mrs Murphy's continual snipings from the sidelines. So just to say I really detest your ignorant innuendos.
 
Fester said:
One thing that seems to be ignored by the forum are two facts:

1-The prevalence of the scientific method in improving performance.
2-The hierarchical nature of cycling.

There are no "clean" or "dirty" team just teams that use different methods. Some permitted, others not. There is nothing to suggest that methods implemented by Team Sky are not permitted or otherwise.

There is nothing to suggest that Froome is nothing more than an extremely talented domestique rising to prominence (and upsetting the status quo by the looks!). -It's very hard to have a good result when you're worked other the first 3hrs of every race.

Why was he never given an opportunity before you'll ask? Because people are people and the people who payed him told him to jump in the breaks and drill it on the front for the sake of someone they favored. This time he was given the opportunity to help Wiggins in the key mountainous stages.
But this year he was being told to drill it on the front for the sake of someone they favoured and still being there at the finish after dropping people whose palmarès are 10x his. And to do it once is "wow, impressive day from Froome!"

But to go in two weeks from being the guy whose only claim to fame is doing a Taaramäe on San Luca in 2009 and who doesn't have a contract to a guy who outclimbs people who've won GTs - not just on a good day but continually - and out-TTs Wiggins and Cancellara?

Let's just say that if Sky were being honest about spotting those numbers and thinking he could be a GT contender, then:
- he wouldn't have been working for Wiggins anyway, especially not on La Manzaneda when in the leader's jersey
- given their commitment to a British Tour winner, they wouldn't let a 26 year old potential GT winner walk, they'd have locked him into a contract sooner.

All of which gives me the impression that Froome performing to that level - or at least him performing to that level for several days, not just an isolated great day of superdomestiquing - is almost as much of a surprise for Team Sky as it is for the rest of us. If he had a Spanish flag next to his name he'd be being treated like dirt here.
 
Jul 2, 2009
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Libertine Seguros said:
But this year he was being told to drill it on the front for the sake of someone they favoured and still being there at the finish after dropping people whose palmarès are 10x his.
Yet largely unheralded riders such as Monfort, Fuglsang, Cobo and Mollema weren't getting dropped. Anton, Nibali and Scarponi were getting dropped because they were underperforming. Nothing to do with Froome.
 
Mambo95 said:
Yet largely unheralded riders such as Monfort, Fuglsang, Cobo and Mollema weren't getting dropped. Anton, Nibali and Scarponi were getting dropped because they were underperforming. Nothing to do with Froome.
All four of those riders were far more heralded than Froome.

Cobo had just come from the podium of the Vuelta a Burgos, and has a GT top 10 in his history even if we ignore all of his pre-2009 results.

Mollema was 2nd in Castilla y León, 5th in the Tour de Suisse, 10th in Catalunya and 9th in Paris-Nice. Last year he was 12th in the Giro, without being in the infamous L'Aquila breakaway. He's been seen as a coming man for a while.

Fuglsang was 4th in the Tour de Suisse and 4th in Amstel Gold this year. He's also managed the same position in the Giro di Lombardia, 3rd in the Tour de Suisse and 6th in the Dauphiné and Catalunya before, and was seen as a potential GC man for the '09 Vuelta before the tanker crash put him back. He also did end up getting dropped, since he didn't finish in the top 10 of the Vuelta anyway.

Monfort was 10th in Paris-Nice and the Tour de Suisse. He's scored more than 500 CQ points in 5 years of his career now, and 300 in 7. He's won the Bayern Rundfahrt, come 4th in the Critérium International, 5th in País Vasco and top 10ed the Tour de Suisse and Dauphiné multiple times. He was 11th in the Vuelta back in 2007, just off the back of the top 10 in the very mountainous Deutschlandtour.

And you're trying to tell me that these guys are scrubs, rank outsiders to the same level Chris Froome was prior to this Vuelta?

Cobo's 3 highest pre-2011 CQ annual hauls: 857 (2007), 484 (2009), 426 (2008)
Mollema's: 524 (2010), 254 (2007)*, 186 (2008)*
Fuglsang's: 930 (2009), 802 (2010), 239 (2008)*
Monfort's: 753 (2009), 662 (2010), 577 (2008)

now, Froome's: 253 (2008), 170 (2009), 126 (2010).

* denotes totals developed outside of the top 2 tiers or as a junior/u23.

So what we're seeing here is that all four riders had at least two years that are superior to Froome's previous best. All but Fuglsang have three - but Fuglsang's third tally was acquired while he was still riding for Designa Køkken! Also, three of these riders appear to be improving, with their annual tallies being better later in their career. Cobo is the exception, with 2010 being an annus horribilis. Froome's numbers are going the other way. His numbers were dwindling.

Now, the amount of CQ points earned by these riders in 2011, prior to the Vuelta:

Froome: 62

Cobo: 212
Mollema: 499
Fuglsang: 428
Monfort: 353


So I'm sorry, but in no circumstances can I accept the argument that these guys are as little heralded as Froome was, or that their being able to hold on indicates that he must be clean, considering that there's doubt enough about Cobo at least, and these guys are riders with much better palmarès, having much better years. If you told me at the start of the Vuelta that Fuglsang would finish 11th I might even be a bit disappointed. If you told me Mollema would be 4th I'd think "what a great race from him!" especially if you told me Antón and Rodríguez underperformed, similar to Gesink's 2008 showing. If you told me Monfort was 6th I might be a bit surprised, but plenty of riders get into the lower end of the top 10 without really being known as great climbers - Siutsou, Rogers and Pinotti have got into the top 10 of the last 3 Giri, for example. But if you told me Cobo won and Froome was 2nd, I'd laugh. Cobo winning is hilarious enough, but Froome 2nd? That's downright wet-yourself hilarious.
 
Jul 2, 2009
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Libertine Seguros said:
All four of those riders were far more heralded than Froome.
Maybe, but their palmares were not in the same league as Nibali, Anton and Scarponi, are they?. So why did they do a better Vuelta than those three? The sensible reason is those three just weren't on form. Your reason is that Chris Froome was doping.
 
Mambo95 said:
Maybe, but their palmares were not in the same league as Nibali, Anton and Scarponi, are they?. So why did they do a better Vuelta than those three? The sensible reason is those three just weren't on form. Your reason is that Chris Froome was doping.
My reasoning is that, should Nibali, Antón and Scarponi all underperform (as they did), then the likes of Mollema, Monfort and Fuglsang are the kind of riders I would expect to profit from that - i.e. lower end top 10 riders and fringe GC men who could hope to get a good GC by quietly accumulating results. Like Tiralongo and Cobo in '09.

Therefore, their results were not especially surprising.

Froome's results? Those were surprising. Very surprising. It wasn't just that he was up there (which was strange enough). It's the people he was putting out the back door. As you note, many of them were out of form and would likely have been dropped anyway. But I would have been impressed and surprised with Froome climbing with the likes of Monfort and Fuglsang, let alone blowing them out the back door (as he did on more than one occasion). And that's before we get to the TT as well. I was happy enough to buy the Covatilla stage as Froome on a really good day, then the TT on the argument that his best TT results have been in longer TTs throughout his career. But didn't Froome post a better time on Anglirú than Mosquera? Mosquera's 2007 breakout was less of a shock, and we know how that fairytale ended.

Lots of riders who are more vaunted as climbers, as TTers, as GC men and as prospects, fell by the wayside under the ferocious tempo of Froome. Not just the ones that were woefully out of form, but ones that were in form too.
 
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