Sky/Froome Talk Only (No Way Sky Are Cleans?)

[Mellow Velo]

I have a Tour 2008 DVD and I I may be mistaken but I honestly don't think Froome appears on it at all. Trying to sell us his 2011/2012 seasons off the back of his 2008 Tour is laughable.

Funny you should bring this up.
I've got all of Eurosport's 2008 TDF coverage archived to DVD
which shows quite a bit of Froome riding towards the head of the bunch on all the climbs....................
..........until CSC put the hammer down and then he quickly disappears.

Taking of ET moments, the 2008 most "unbelievable" award must go to Fabian Cancellara, who pulls for most of the Croix de Fer, into a headwind, decimates the contenders group and takes back biggest part of 10 minutes on the break, all on his lonesome.

Sadly it appears many are trying to pass it off along with some obscure U23 race in Italy.

You really would be better off trying to get over your rather embarrassing mistake over that race, instead of bringing it back up.
Even some of your "supporters" thought you were being silly.

 

[thehog]

You really would be better off trying to get over your rather embarrassing mistake over that race, instead of bringing it back up. Even some of your "supporters" thought you were being silly.

Spin it anyway you like but I'm the only one here who knew it was an U23. Froome19 passing it off as some mainstrram ProRace! LOL!

I'm sure there's a race thread on said race?

 

[Mellow Velo]

Spin it anyway you like but I'm the only one here who knew it was an U23. Froome19 passing it off as some mainstrram ProRace! LOL!

I'm sure there's a race thread on said race?

You are the one spinning......or, actually lying in this case.
Blackcat and I know the race well.
You, on the other hand, clearly knew nothing about it.

I remember Simon Clarke in his Aussie U23 RR champs jersey either in the break, or on the attack, in every stage of the 2008 edition.

If necessary, I'm sure some of our Italian posters in the RR section can confirm this.
Not something you can google and find on wiki.

 

[thehog]

You are the one spinning......or, actually lying in this case.
Blackcat and I know the race well.
You, on the other hand, clearly knew nothing about it.

I remember Simon Clarke in his Aussie U23 RR champs jersey either in the break, or on the attack, in every stage of the 2008 edition.

If necessary, I'm sure some of our Italian posters in the RR section can confirm this.
Not something you can google and find on wiki.

So you and Blackcat speak for one and all?

Also it doesn’t matter if I knew about the race or not. I’m not the one trying to pass it off as the future symbol of clean cycling GT champions!

If you thought it was such an amazing race and you never miss it then why is it only now you mention it? Surely you’d be posting some updates in the Race thread? Or some info on some up and coming riders?

Or is just convenient that it fits into the Froome clean story that you know all about it.

Sorry I’m not buying it. You’re over selling the story and using this race as an excuse.

Sorry.

 

[Mellow Velo]

So you and Blackcat speak for one and all?

Also it doesn’t matter if I knew about the race or not. I’m not the one trying to pass it off as the future symbol of clean cycling GT champions!

If you thought it was such an amazing race and you never miss it then why is it only now you mention it? Surely you’d be posting some updates in the Race thread? Or some info on some up and coming riders?

Or is just convenient that it fits into the Froome clean story that you know all about it.

Sorry I’m not buying it. You’re over selling the story and using this race as an excuse.

Sorry.

Of course, you do speak for one and all.

Trouble is Hog, you insist on winning all the battles as well as the war.

I haven't disagreed with you over Froome's rapid rise.

I have merely pointed out that you were in error over this race,
as I did over the Tenerife-Ferrari-Wiggins connection, due to timeline
"inconsistencies".
When you dig your then heels in, having lost a just a segment of the overall debate, it impacts upon your creditability.
Given that the material you are working with is thin on the ground, credibility becomes paramount.
Lose that and you come across a bit of a crank.
You are well on your way.

Anyhow, I'm done wasting my time, so I'll leave you to have the inevitable final word.

 

[andy1234]

Sadly it appears many are trying to pass it off along with some obscure U23 race in Italy.

Like Liberty says. If Froome was Spanish he’d be called out by one and all as a fraud.

You claim to have lived in Italy, yet describe the Regione as provincial and obscure?
I take it you didn't follow cycling at the time?

The more you talk the more it smells of Bull$***.

Froome may be suspect, but you are clearly not the man to provide the case against him.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

see the Queen Stage. climbing at the final HC ascent with heads of state.

Chronos very impressive.

I have a Tour 2008 DVD and I I may be mistaken but I honestly don't think Froome appears on it at all. Trying to sell us his 2011/2012 seasons off the back of his 2008 Tour is laughable.

Froome did get in the break that day and do a decent job over the two major HC climbs earlier in the stage. However, while blackcat is correct that he got to the final HC ascent with the heads of state after the break was caught, the way he states it is a bit misleading. Froome was dropped around about the same time as Johan van Summeren. His 2008 Tour was not as impressive as, say, Urán's Tour at the same age a year later, when he was in key breaks and moves several days in the final week. Though Froome can argue that a) the 2009 route was softer, and b) he had less experience of the pro péloton, to counter that.

Froome at the 2008 Tour showed that he had the potential to be a decent pro level rider. Claiming it showed anything more is to exaggerate the significance of those rides. They show that he perhaps had more potential than he achieved in the 2009-11 period, sure, but I don't see "GT winner" there any more than I see a very raw prospect. I would have liked to have seen something a bit more directly noticeable before I would be willing to call him anything special, for sure.

Or is just convenient that it fits into the Froome clean story that you know all about it.

Sorry I’m not buying it. You’re over selling the story and using this race as an excuse.

Sorry.

Even Blackcat isn't saying Froome's clean. Blackcat is saying that Froome is legitimately a talented rider. I've been through this with him a few times. We seem to concur that Froome is doping (like most of the other contenders), but where we differ is that Blackcat thinks he's a Carl Lewis-style natural talent who would have risen to the top clean or dirty, and I think he's a Ben Johnson-style chemically created alien. I respect the difference.

 

[thehog]

We seem to concur that Froome is doping (like most of the other contenders), but where we differ is that Blackcat thinks he's a Carl Lewis-style natural talent who would have risen to the top clean or dirty, and I think he's a Ben Johnson-style chemically created alien. I respect the difference.

You're saying "alian", Blackcat is saying "E.T."

I can understand how people want more proof that Froome is doping. But I don't think he deserves to be labeled "clean". He's a long way from that!

 

[D-Queued]

...but where we differ is that Blackcat thinks he's a Carl Lewis-style natural talent who would have risen to the top clean or dirty, and I think he's a Ben Johnson-style chemically created alien. I respect the difference.

Carl Lewis' natural talent is his ability to lie and cheat.

Dave.

 

[ebandit]

optimism

You're saying "alian", Blackcat is saying "E.T."

I can understand how people want more proof that Froome is doping. But I don't think he deserves to be labeled "clean". He's a long way from that!

yes but most would assume clean until proven otherwise...........it is

negative to assume dirty until proven clean

hog i notice others above calling you out for your pork pies but you

remain undaunted spinning away

 

[Libertine Seguros]

You're mistaking the court of public opinion for a court of law.

I don't expect them to sanction Froome based on his sudden improvement from also-ran to superstrong climber and TT behemoth. That would be unethical and unfair. But I might reasonably expect that, given the history of the sport, it might be worth keeping a close eye on him. After all, why did they target Riccardo Riccò for testing in 2008?

 

[thehog]

It's a plausible explanation, but Froome's improvement is so drastic and so sudden, that it's hard to take seriously, simply because we're being asked to accept the explanation that most of the péloton doped up until August 6 2011, and is now mostly clean. It's not a minor swing or gradual process, otherwise a clean Froome's results should be gradually improving as more and more clean riders means more people he's able to beat on a level playing field. But the swing has been incredibly drastic, from a guy who'd finished in the top 10 of two mountain stages in his entire career (3rd on Mont Faron in the 2008 Tour Méditerranéen and 8th in the relatively easy climb of Leysin the 2011 Tour de Romandie) and had blown up in a number of one week races, to a guy who finishes in the top 5-6 in every mountain stage in a GT, shelling people who've won GTs and people who've top 5ed the Tour de France in the process. And he could still win the Vuelta - Cobo has to do a pee before anything can be confirmed.

If it was possible for Froome to do this clean, and the péloton hasn't had a sudden get-up-and-go-totally-clean, then the question must be asked, why hadn't he even come close to doing this before?

I would agree. It’s just too dramatic.

And comments like this don’t help. Why can’t he just pretend and say LeMond?

Bradley Wiggins:

When I took the lead of the front group three kilometres away from the top, I rode fast despite the head wind. I’m pretty good at guessing when my adversaries aren’t well. For three kilometres, I’ve ridden like Miguel Indurain! I had never done that before.

 

[blackcat]

Guess you and Blackcat must have been separated at birth. I don't believe in coincidences, so you posting in the same fashion mulitple times ain't an accident.

dont think you are implying a sockpuppet. I will only go to this mo if (and when) I get banned. then might camouflage the persona. I have only made a few posts outside this forum, (sub-forum). Perhaps 0.5% of total posts.

 

[ebandit]

agree

You're mistaking the court of public opinion for a court of law.

I don't expect them to sanction Froome based on his sudden improvement from also-ran to superstrong climber and TT behemoth. That would be unethical and unfair. But I might reasonably expect that, given the history of the sport, it might be worth keeping a close eye on him. After all, why did they target Riccardo Riccò for testing in 2008?

i agree .....keep a very close eye on him.............highlight suspicions

not what hog is doing blatantly calling him out and using untruths to do so

 

[blackcat]

So you and Blackcat speak for one and all?

Also it doesn’t matter if I knew about the race or not. I’m not the one trying to pass it off as the future symbol of clean cycling GT champions!

If you thought it was such an amazing race and you never miss it then why is it only now you mention it? Surely you’d be posting some updates in the Race thread? Or some info on some up and coming riders?

Or is just convenient that it fits into the Froome clean story that you know all about it.

Sorry I’m not buying it. You’re over selling the story and using this race as an excuse.

Sorry.

Hog, you might concede, you have invoked the term "provincial" as a term of invective. Not a descriptive term in respect to the quality of the race.

Where else will u23 stage races be, but in the spaces of the cycling regions?

And since national teams were invited to this race, and the UCI composite Le Monde team, then I do not see that the qualifier/adjective "regional" is correct in this instance.

I do not know how long the Baby Giro was on ice, it came back rebranded as the Bio-Giro I think, with an emphasis on the new breed, and more controls, and hematocrit testing at the start. I think they made a splash with a few riders prevented from starting.

Then they went back on ice, for one or two years I think. (going off a very hazy memory).

Matt Lloyd was third as a final year espoir. Actually, I think he did not even qualify for the Worlds that year, as he had turned 23. So I think the entry rules for u23 must have been different in Italian races at that time.

Peter Kennaugh came third about 3 years ago.

Think Dmitri Grabowsky won Lloyd's year. And a Colombian second (I think).
We are talking Bio-Giro to emphasise. Not Regioni. And yes, Regioni is Italian for region.

 

[blackcat]

Showed more promise than Geraint Thomas

G was only 19 or 20. barely out of nappies

 

[DirtyWorks]

But I might reasonably expect that, given the history of the sport, it might be worth keeping a close eye on him. After all, why did they target Riccardo Riccò for testing in 2008?

Froome could be glowing and if it is seen as vital to the UCI's interests to keep the bloom on the 2012 TdF/Olympics fantasy, that positive would never get announced.

The UCI tried it with Contador, they did it with Armstrong. meanwhile other riders have been swept away days after hearing about the doping positive on CN.

Defenders of Sky's 2012 domination are assuming the UCI acts imparitally. They do not.

 

[thehog]

Froome could be glowing and if it is seen as vital to the UCI's interests to keep the bloom on the 2012 TdF/Olympics fantasy, that positive would never get announced.

The UCI tried it with Contador, they did it with Armstrong. meanwhile other riders have been swept away days after hearing about the doping positive on CN.

Defenders of Sky's 2012 domination are assuming the UCI acts imparitally. They do not.

I don't think anyone on Sky is going to test positive ever. Wiggins was right. They are US Postal in more ways than one.

I get the feeling Contador is sending a message to Sky and in particular Froome; lay off the gear. Make it a fake fight next year.

"For cycling, it should be zero tolerance, I express myself less certain but it is clear that there is no place for cheaters," the Spaniard explained.

If I were Contador I wouldn't take chances. I'd get a few cells on ice in prep for next year.

 

[Moller]

There is a new book out at the minute called Allez Wiggo by Daniel Friebe. There is a full page shot of Froome crossing the line at Planche des belle filles, he has his two arms raised in victory.
If you look at his left arm, under his bicep there are two disctinct marks, which to me look like needle marks.
In normal circumstances these would never be visible, but you can see them as he is punching the air in victory and the inner part of his arms are facing outward.
Has anyone else seen this?

 

[Avoriaz]

There is a new book out at the minute called Allez Wiggo by Daniel Friebe. There is a full page shot of Froome crossing the line at Planche des belle filles, he has his two arms raised in victory.
If you look at his left arm, under his bicep there are two disctinct marks, which to me look like needle marks.
In normal circumstances these would never be visible, but you can see them as he is punching the air in victory and the inner part of his arms are facing outward.
Has anyone else seen this?

This one?

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?hl=e...8&start=26&ndsp=31&ved=1t:429,r:24,s:26,i:245

 

[Moller]

This one?

No, there's no shadow on the one in the book. Anyway you won't see it on a pic on the internet as the resolution of a pic in a book is far higher than is needed for the net.

 

[Velo1ticker]

I don't think anyone on Sky is going to test positive ever. Wiggins was right. They are US Postal in more ways than one.

I get the feeling Contador is sending a message to Sky and in particular Froome; lay off the gear. Make it a fake fight next year.



If I were Contador I wouldn't take chances. I'd get a few cells on ice in prep for next year.

So someone thinks Aldopo will be clean next year and at same time take doping at Sky for granted. Have Aldopo, Val dope, J-dope and the Spanish armada ever raced clean? Sorry they haven’t. I think most you are off the road when it comes to doping and Sky. Assuming that 4-9 rider at Sky with Leinders or others to help/organize it they are still far form the Italians and Spanish with >90% doped riders. Even after they have been caught they receive support. The Pantani prize at the Giro and known doping athletes in the parliament are good examples of national pride/denial. How can anyone expect improvements when Italians, Russians and others get an MP title instead of world champion title when caught?

Here’s a fresh example: (Anyone clean in Italy?)
“Other award winners included Italian national champion Franco Pellizotti and Moreno Moser, who was voted the revelation of 2012 after winning the Tour of Poland and the Trofeo Laigueglia. His uncle Francesco Moser collected his award, while fellow former Paris-Roubaix winner Andrea Tafi collected an award for his nephew Umberto Orsini, who was crowned as the most successful Italian junior rider after winning the Italian national road title.”

I think you're on a campaign against everyone who can upstage your favorite dopedude. Aldopo is a known doper, he has been caught, he has been on all the big dope teams and it is mandatory for the Saxo leader to take dope. No way he is clean.

 

[del1962]

So someone thinks Aldopo will be clean next year and at same time take doping at Sky for granted. Have Aldopo, Val dope, J-dope and the Spanish armada ever raced clean? Sorry they haven’t. I think most you are off the road when it comes to doping and Sky. Assuming that 4-9 rider at Sky with Leinders or others to help/organize it they are still far form the Italians and Spanish with >90% doped riders. Even after they have been caught they receive support. The Pantani prize at the Giro and known doping athletes in the parliament are good examples of national pride/denial. How can anyone expect improvements when Italians, Russians and others get an MP title instead of world champion title when caught?

Here’s a fresh example: (Anyone clean in Italy?)
“Other award winners included Italian national champion Franco Pellizotti and Moreno Moser, who was voted the revelation of 2012 after winning the Tour of Poland and the Trofeo Laigueglia. His uncle Francesco Moser collected his award, while fellow former Paris-Roubaix winner Andrea Tafi collected an award for his nephew Umberto Orsini, who was crowned as the most successful Italian junior rider after winning the Italian national road title.”

I think you're on a campaign against everyone who can upstage your favorite dopedude. Aldopo is a known doper, he has been caught, he has been on all the big dope teams and it is mandatory for the Saxo leader to take dope. No way he is clean.

Surely Italy are trying to something about doping, banning Ferrari, padua investigation and having no convicted riders at worlds.

 

[del1962]

I don't think anyone on Sky is going to test positive ever. Wiggins was right. They are US Postal in more ways than one.

I get the feeling Contador is sending a message to Sky and in particular Froome; lay off the gear. Make it a fake fight next year.



If I were Contador I wouldn't take chances. I'd get a few cells on ice in prep for next year.

Your'e not encouraging riders to dope are you?

 

[thehog]

Your'e not encouraging riders to dope are you?

When faced with Alien Froome there is no choice.