Sky/Froome Talk Only (No Way Sky Are Cleans?)

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Big Doopie

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Franklin said:
Generally a lot of people would test positive on that without having transfusions.

False.

And...um....right after a rest day?

Puhleeze.

And can you please re-read my initial post. All I was pointing out was my complete bewilderment at how clentadopucci is still held up as the standard in terms of GT cycling performance. All the more ridiculous since every single one of his winning performances on record are those of an unrepentant blood doper.
 
Sep 3, 2012
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JimmyFingers said:
I don't know why people call them the Skyborg, clearly on the basis of this they are Transformers....

I thank you

Marginaltron to take the title in July then...
 

martinvickers

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Franklin said:
That one is actually a tad more complicated. The IOC and UCI had no isue for it on TUE's, but the French did. Now of course nobody believes Mig really had a TUE for the right reasons, but he did have the TUE. As you are into the legal side I hope you will agree on this.

Again, I haven't got a shred of doubt about Miguel, but a tue on an inhaler is not exactly SPECIFIC evidence on dope abuse. Especially when I think Epo and hormones are where he crossed the line. Even disregarding the TUE, Salbutamol is currently not even seen as doping (unless you really pig out on it).

So in my eyes the evidence on Indurain is actually absent.

point accepted, but i would note on top as near as damnit an admission, too, on radio.

On the others:
- Hinault was pretty vague about it (I have no illusions), so not really specific.
- Roche: Spot on

- Delgado: Probenecid.The mitigating factor would be it's absense on the UCI list (it was on the IOC list) and that the rules clearly stated that one was the one that would be followed. I guess legally that one can fly, but as there is not a remotely legitimate excuse for probenecid (something which could be constructed for Salbutamol) I definitely would put it into the SPECIFIC allegation category.

- Fignon: Quite open on his drug use.
- Lemond: Squeaky clean.

Did Lemond not admit recreational cocaine use? I know it's not the same, just asking out of curiosity. Lemond had theww huge advantages to keep him straight. A VO2 max out of this world and Hampsten and Kochli, who seemed to at least give him a chance. Plus his fear of needles, i suppose

Again, I think we should cast a bit bigger net to see if your assertion stands. So far I must admit that it looks pretty good, even though I wouldn't agree that there are specific things against Hinault and Indurain.

Very happy to do that, it's a question worth answering, and of course i could be wrong, i entirely accept.
 

martinvickers

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del1962 said:
Here is a list of all cyclists that finished within 10 minutes of Lance (1999-2005)

Alex Zulle - Pre 1999 EPO admission
Jan Ulrich (5) - Puerto Implication / Stromgly Tarred
Joseba Beloki (2) - Impicated in Puerto / Though Cleared
Andrei Kivilev (RIP) also only just inside 10 minutes
Raimondas Rusmas - Drug Supplier
Alexandre Vinoukarov - Sanctioned
Tyler Hamilton - Sanctioned
Hamair Zubeldia
Iban Mayo - Sanctioned
Andreas Kloden - Impicated in Freiberg but escaped sanction
Ivan Basso (2) - Sanctioned

If we ignore Kivilev who had a tragic accident.

Zubeldia has no evidence against him.

Otherwise Kloden and Beloki have escaped sanction but have huge clouds hanging over them.

I think this puts to rest the theory that you are likely to escape without some serious evidence against you.

Zubeldia and Sastre were the two that stood out to me when i checked the lists. and of course Nardello, though i don't recall the specifics there...
 

martinvickers

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The Hitch said:
Indurain of course basically admited to doping when he answered a "did you dope" question on an interview with "otra pregunta".

But thanks for the info on the 94 positive. Didn't know about the details behind it.

You know, it stuff like that from Franklin makes the place worth while :D
 
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The Hitch said:
Indurain of course basically admited to doping when he answered a "did you dope" question on an interview with "otra pregunta".

But thanks for the info on the 94 positive. Didn't know about the details behind it.
The best thing about that was that the interviewer was incredulous, saying something like "but Mig! If you give that a 'next question' then we will have to make an assumption that you doped!"

Miguelón just repeated his statement.
JimmyFingers said:
I don't know why people call them the Skyborg, clearly on the basis of this they are Transformers....

I thank you
Ha, I can totally see the 2012 Tour with Froome as Starscream now.
 

martinvickers

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Libertine Seguros said:
The best thing about that was that the interviewer was incredulous, saying something like "but Mig! If you give that a 'next question' then we will have to make an assumption that you doped!"

Miguelón just repeated his statement.

In a sense that was pure Mig. Sure,a frank admission would be more cathartic, but in a sense, he answered the question pretty clearly. And I'm oddly glad of that.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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ljpoyz said:
Whilst I respect your opinion, I don't think I agree with that. He'd placed second twice in le tour by then and won the then UCI world tour. Plus, he allegedly made his Ferrari engine comment earlier than that. I don't see a huge improvement spike in him throughout his career.
ceteris paribus

should be winding down from 30 onwards when your natural hormones receding.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
To sum up Froome's early years:
some nice results

Carreerpath of a man who is going to be able to destroy the peloton? Not in my book. But, perhaps you have seen these kinda riders before, doing it clean of course, like Bernhard Kohl, Stefan Schumacher?

my position is not unlike everyone else, wyt pharmalogy support. I always recognised this element.

not alot of context from others that HE DID NOT have a traditional pathway. It is much more difficult for new zealanders, south africans, canadians, to make it without the support of their anglo brethren in usa, Aus, UK.

ofcourse froome is on a load of stuff. just like wiggins. they lost the weight, and other $hit makes them significant GC competitors.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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how is it trolling to offer more context.

I am not Dave Bower on TustBut.blogspot, offering specious justification for why an athlete is getting strung up by WADA when it is self-evident he doped.

Froome and Wiggins playing the russian roulette game with WADA. Wiggins is more fortunate with the knighthood as bulwark.
 
Sep 14, 2009
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The Hitch said:
You only joined this discussion recently which obviously impedes your ability to analyze it. This is evident throughout the 2 waste of time minutes it took to read it. It also shows all the usual flaws demonstrated by people who havent lived through any real doping scandals (except the very small frank schleck one) But even taking into account inexperience, your inability to identify the themes and sides of the discussion, is not suggestive of an intelligent person. They seem beyond you. The clearly unfunny attempt at humour at the end only adds to this interpretation.

My analysis on you, btw, and maybe it's as full of **** as your post, but I'll give it a try anyway, is that since you only started watching cycling very recently (something you confessed to) you are trying to hide your inexperience and gaps in knowledge, by constantly arguing for the sake of arguing. Especially evident in the wild and often contradictory positions you take pro racing section.

And that's all right in pro racing section where its never that serious and usually just banter. But here in the vipers pit, people feel lied to, they feel like their heroes are being slandered, they feel like their sport is being hijacked. You come in here, unprepared and looking for a game, your gonna get your nose bloody.

Hitch, don't you think this post is a little harsh? It seems like P is gradually changing his views. Just my opinion (obviously).

I point this out because most of your posts are pretty spot on and you tend not to attack folks/be overly harsh.
 
Jul 5, 2012
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Libertine Seguros said:
The best thing about that was that the interviewer was incredulous, saying something like "but Mig! If you give that a 'next question' then we will have to make an assumption that you doped!"

Miguelón just repeated his statement.

Libertine, have you listened to the interview? Could you pick up anything from the inflections? Or was Big Mig totally "poker faced"
 
Jul 5, 2012
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Franklin said:
....Of course, what really helps your case is the past record of TdF winners in the Epo era. They all are directly tainted, besides Indurain, Sastre, Evans and Wiggo. Of these we are pretty much certain Mig was a charger. Sastre and Evans really have odd team choices for clean riders. Wiggo is probably the best chance for being clean. I'm to lazy to do Vuelta or Giro winners, but I'm sure that will have a similar roll call (that said, I think a few more escaped scrutiny in those races...

I'm going to do a thehog to help out here ;)

sittingbison said:
2000 Lance Armstrong (29)
2001 Lance Armstrong (30)
2002 Lance Armstrong (31)
2003 Lance Armstrong (32)
2004 Lance Armstrong (33)
2005 Lance Armstrong (34)

2006 Óscar Pereiro (28)
2007 Alberto Contador (24)

2008 Carlos Sastre (33)
2009 Alberto Contador (26)
2010 Andy Schleck (26)
2011 Cadel Evans (34)

2000 Stefano Garzelli (27)
2001 Gilberto Simoni (29) (cocaine)
2002 Paolo Savoldelli (29)
2003 Gilberto Simoni (31) (cocaine)
2004 Damiano Cunego (23)
2005 Paolo Savoldelli (32)
2006 Ivan Basso (28)
2007 Danilo Di Luca (29)
2008 Alberto Contador (25)

2009 Denis Menchov (31)
2010 Ivan Basso (32)
2011 Michele Scarponi (31)
2012 Ryder Hesjedal (31)

2000 Roberto Heras (26)
2001 Ángel Casero (29)
2002 Aitor González (27)
2003 Roberto Heras (29)
2004 Roberto Heras (30)

2005 Denis Menchov (27)
2006 Alexander Vinokourov (33)
2007 Denis Menchov (29)
2008 Alberto Contador (25)
2009 Alejandro Valverde (29)

2010 Vincenzo Nibali (25)
2011 Juan José Cobo (30)

krebs I'm struggling to see a vast preponderance of these winners are over 32, and I wouldn't be too hasty in using the past 20 years of winners to demonstrate anything in particular viz a viz performance. Especially if you are trying to demonstrate a rider today is clean.

I'm giving up on this particular aspect of dopes, its become a nonsensical argument. Sadly onto the next one whoever it may be.

And there are serious question marks over Cunego and Menchov. Various folk are not too happy with Ryders blood values, and Evans has got question marks over his 2000 link with Ferrari, doping teams and cleft jaw. Does that leave anyone? Oh, Sastre....who was riding for CSC and Riis ;)
 
Sep 14, 2009
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sittingbison said:
I'm going to do a thehog to help out here ;)



And there are serious question marks over Cunego and Menchov. Various folk are not too happy with Ryders blood values, and Evans has got question marks over his 2000 link with Ferrari, doping teams and cleft jaw. Does that leave anyone? Oh, Sastre....who was riding for CSC and Riis ;)

Don't forget Nibs ties with Ferrari.
 
Jun 14, 2010
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sittingbison said:
I'm going to do a thehog to help out here ;)



And there are serious question marks over Cunego and Menchov. Various folk are not too happy with Ryders blood values, and Evans has got question marks over his 2000 link with Ferrari, doping teams and cleft jaw. Does that leave anyone? Oh, Sastre....who was riding for CSC and Riis ;)

cobo? :confused:
 
May 26, 2010
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leon7766 said:
Well Martin shows a Sky standard of dedication and look what results you get
Clean cycling breaking out everywhere

If only the other riders would train as hard as Sky instead of sitting in the coffee shops all day they too could win all that money, presitge and fame. Why wont no one tell these riders........:rolleyes:
 
May 26, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
If only the other riders would train as hard as Sky instead of sitting in the coffee shops all day they too could win all that money, presitge and fame. Why wont no one tell these riders........:rolleyes:

To paraphrase a good friend of the clinic, 'because they're bone idle ******* and *****'.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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webvan said:
Tim Kerrison said:
''"I believe that we know a lot more than we did even 12 months ago," Kerrison said, referring to the revelations about Lance Armstrong and US Postal Service in the USADA report of last October. "In the previous era of cycling, I guess the teams did a cost-benefit analysis and the best way to invest their limited amount of resource for some teams was to invest in doctors and doping programmes, and coaching suffered. That's left a window of opportunity for us. Quite uniquely, in this sport the development of coaching systems has been *** by the effects of the last decade."

This guy is an insult to a lot of people, but hey, nice PR spin, that is what the Italians said way back.

A socalled scientist making statements on the basis of a guess, I guess he is full of BS.

My guess is he is lying here http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CVROhTHxWP8#t=299s
 
Jul 21, 2012
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I wonder how good Froome is gonna be when he peaks for the tour. Gonna be disappointed if he doesnt win by 10 minutes.