Sky/Froome Talk Only (No Way Sky Are Cleans?)

[JimmyFingers]

Your inability to say "I was wrong: sorry" really undermines any point you make which may otherwise have some validity

It's more the constant lying, sarcasm, exaggeration, baiting and poor jokes that do it for me, but I wouldn't have it any other way...the validity part that is

 

[noddy69]

Lofkvist has never been a top talent, he was already a declining force when he joined Sky, forced to do more domestique work than in his early years. Have you also considered the possibility of him doping at FDJ/HTC?

EBH and Uran are good examples of the early physical peak; like many Danish and Dutch riders very good at age 21-22 but lacking any margin for prgression. Of course they still progress a little, but they're not turning into the top riders some people expected them to be. Both lack the necessary endurance(EBH) or recovery(Uran) to become a real top rider.

You've also forgotten about Flecha, who was signed as one of their leaders in 2010. He's not had any jump in performance, he was just up there in the classics like he always did at Rabo.

Just a thought. 2010 Giro Uran 35th Young Rider 7th (Porte wins)
2012 Giro Uran 7th Young Rider 1st

That I would say is some progression and he has time left as he is only just over young rider status so I believe your argument is flawed.

 

[Pentacycle]

Just a thought. 2010 Giro Uran 35th Young Rider 7th (Porte wins)
2012 Giro Uran 7th Young Rider 1st

That I would say is some progression and he has time left as he is only just over young rider status so I believe your argument is flawed.

Uran was working for Arroyo most of the time since l'Aquila, together with Kiryienka; and the 2012 Giro was much 'easier' than the 2010 edition.

He's pro since he was 19. How much can he still progress?

 

[Taxus4a]

Uran was working for Arroyo most of the time since l'Aquila, together with Kiryienka; and the 2012 Giro was much 'easier' than the 2010 edition.

He's pro since he was 19. How much can he still progress?

Uran begun that Giro really bad, and he dont like the bad weather. He disconet and help Arroyo. He was 7 at the climb ITT, and he was close to win Suisse later.
He has had bad luck in some key moments, but for me is one of the most talented riders in the peloton, for GT and for clasics and able to shine all the year. The pity is that now he is in SKY. He has been always better than Henao and he is still better.

 

[Netserk]

You forgot that I laid the smack down on those who included Kiryienka in the list of major Sky improvers for that very reason. Kiryienka's always been strong. He's not improved or worsened at Sky. I also left out Siutsou because I don't know where I'd judge him. I don't recall ever seeing him climb like he did in Trentino at HTC, but he did top 10 the Giro albeit with the aid of a break, and he was seldom high enough up the food chain to be allowed to do anything other than sprint train duty there.

Decent performance by Siutsou, although the climb was raced tactically because of the headwind.
Etna stage results

 

[Ripper]

Really? Apparently Lemond weighed 69kg so how could he do well in the GT prologues and even win some lesser ones like the Tour du Pont? Closer to us there are some good ITTers who are very light, Quintana comes to mind.

It's always the same story with Sky haters, they only look at arguments that fit their crackpot theories, totally biased, and as a result the overall argument loses most, if not all, of its credibility.

The haterz, the h8trrz. Right from the wonderboy playbook.

You are thinking of a select few posters. There are a fair number of posters who are quite suspicious of Sky and are not haterz. Read LS' posts .... not really sounding like a h8trr. Lots of folks looking at the forest developing instead of individual treees. Lots of somewhat questionnable performances.

It's not always the same story. Or the same could be said for you - it's always the same story with the fanboys.

When Contador started killing folks in flatter TTs (or at least placing high in moderately rolling to flat TTs), people were right to start getting suspicious. Turns out he got popped. Why would you expect a different reaction from Sky performances?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

When Contador started killing folks in flatter TTs (or at least placing high in moderately rolling to flat TTs), people were right to start getting suspicious. Turns out he got popped. Why would you expect a different reaction from Sky performances?

This didnt trigger an alarm:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WRqxW9Jyt8
?

How long before he got popped? Three years?

 

[thehog]

The haterz, the h8trrz. Right from the wonderboy playbook.

You are thinking of a select few posters. There are a fair number of posters who are quite suspicious of Sky and are not haterz. Read LS' posts .... not really sounding like a h8trr. Lots of folks looking at the forest developing instead of individual treees. Lots of somewhat questionnable performances.

It's not always the same story. Or the same could be said for you - it's always the same story with the fanboys.

When Contador started killing folks in flatter TTs (or at least placing high in moderately rolling to flat TTs), people were right to start getting suspicious. Turns out he got popped. Why would you expect a different reaction from Sky performances?

Nothing wrong with hating dopers.

 

[ebandit]

ditto

Nothing wrong with hating dopers.

ditto..........as we all hate liars

but hating athletes for exceptional performance? or those who believe
that such athletes may not actually be dopers?

Mark L

 

[Bala Verde]

You've also forgotten about Flecha, who was signed as one of their leaders in 2010. He's not had any jump in performance, he was just up there in the classics like he always did at Rabo.

Clasicomano...?

 

[spetsa]

You've also forgotten about Flecha, who was signed as one of their leaders in 2010. He's not had any jump in performance, he was just up there in the classics like he always did at Rabo.

Very poor example. Rabo, that clean team.

It's always the same story with Sky haters, they only look at arguments that fit their crackpot theories, totally biased, and as a result the overall argument loses most, if not all, of its credibility.

 

[webvan]

The haterz, the h8trrz. Right from the wonderboy playbook.

You are thinking of a select few posters. There are a fair number of posters who are quite suspicious of Sky and are not haterz. Read LS' posts .... not really sounding like a h8trr. Lots of folks looking at the forest developing instead of individual treees. Lots of somewhat questionnable performances.

It's not always the same story. Or the same could be said for you - it's always the same story with the fanboys.

When Contador started killing folks in flatter TTs (or at least placing high in moderately rolling to flat TTs), people were right to start getting suspicious. Turns out he got popped. Why would you expect a different reaction from Sky performances?

Well that's the thing, if you're a "hater" and have decreed that "Sky are doping" then anyone like me who looks at both sides of the coin and doesn't chalk everything to "that performance proves he's doping" is a "fanboy", it's ridiculous.

I'm not saying there is no doping going on at Sky, there might well be, even though based on my accumulated experience following cycling closely over the past 35 years (Vuelta '78 yes, not sure who else here can make that claim ?) I don't think so. That's pretty different than decreeing that "Sky are doping 100%", ranting and raving that the "Skyborgs are taking over" each time they lead the peloton and never looking at arguments that go the other way...like Froome getting dropped at Tirreno or Wiggins at Catalunya, Quintana beating Porte in an ITT, etc...but hey, each to their own, get an ulcer while watching "the Skyborgs dope 100%" cycling, that's fine with me.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Re: This Sky hater thing...is it hating if we think they are not clean and that it's all not bread and water.

 

[webvan]

Absolutely if :
- you won't even consider the possibility that they're not doping
- you're always looking for clues showing that they're doping and ignoring the clues that show that maybe they aren't
- you feel compelled to repeatedly post "the Skyborgs are coming to the front" outside of the clinic

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Absolutely if :
- you won't even consider the possibility that they're not doping
- you're always looking for clues showing that they're doping and ignoring the clues that show that maybe they aren't
- you feel compelled to repeatedly post "the Skyborgs are coming to the front" outside of the clinic

Guilty on the 1st but i think some maybe clean and some are dirty as hell. I am a hater then?

 

[Hugh Januss]

Absolutely if :
- you won't even consider the possibility that they're not doping
- you're always looking for clues showing that they're doping and ignoring the clues that show that maybe they aren't
- you feel compelled to repeatedly post "the Skyborgs are coming to the front" outside of the clinic

It's OK Webbie, some people thought Lance was clean for a long time too.

 

[spetsa]

Absolutely if :
- you won't even consider the possibility that they're not doping
- you're always looking for clues showing that they're doping and ignoring the clues that show that maybe they aren't
- you feel compelled to repeatedly post "the Skyborgs are coming to the front" outside of the clinic

To consider that members of Sky are not doping, would be dependant upon the assumption/consideration that all teams are clean. Riddle me that logic Batman.

 

[airstream]

The thing that's suspicious is that Chris Froome is now the best climber in the world, and one of the best time triallists. That in itself sets alarm bells ringing. Because no matter how much re-appraisal we give to the pre-bilharzia performances, he showed the talent to be a pretty decent top tier rider. That's not the same as showing the talent to be a GT winner and one of the top 5 riders in the world. Rigoberto Urán, a couple of months later, finished on the podium of Lombardia, and was more active in the final week in the 2009 Tour than Froome was in 2008. He's a guy that people had been raving about the potential of since he arrived at Unibet in 2007 and some even earlier than that. Froome was a guy with potential, but that's all. The 2011 transformation did not constitute 'normal progression' unless you completely reinvent what happened between May 2009 and August 2011, and draw an exponential curve.

I kind of want to know what the racial overtones that got pulled from your post were now, but at the same time I quite like you and don't want to have to jeopardise that.

I hugely respect you and your cycling enthusiasm, but where does this willingness to adapt any rider's career for some ideal consistent way of improving comes from? Riders never improve the same and will never be. Sometimes talented rider doesn't know his limits and is not mentally stable. Sometimes management doesn't believe in him and bets on others. Sometimes hard work beats any talent. There is a million of circumstances which preordain the final outcome. What universal scheme of consistency can be made up I don't know...

Yes, one is free to support absolute consistency, but in this case one should admit the fact that one'll get 1 or 2 elite riders in a decade to support.

Sadly, the CN forum didn't exist in 2007. But IMO if most of forumities looked into account Schleck's and Contador's Giro's and Tour's cases, it wouldn't have been a shock, it would of been horror of indignation. So to me that is just the situation of what one calls normal. Probably, within a year Froome will win a GT and his success will start being considered such a norma like Contador's, Schleck's, Evans' or anyone else.

In fact, the extent of suspicion hit such a high point in cycling that any change of eras among riders is doomed to collide with disturbance we see here.


Yes, Froome uses doping. Very likely, biharzia played a key role in his becoming as a super elite rider. But the fact that Sky allegedly use more sophisticated products than Katusha, Garmin and other teams I strongly question.


As to deleted part, there was nothing new actually. I just once again wonder why people consider Sky boys weaker riders other things being equal. Invisible quintessence of Sky clinics thread is something like — 'They are nobody. If everyone had used the same doping, they would have sucked hugely'. I disagree with that. Froome and Wiggins are such legitimate champions like anyone else in terms of doping.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Logically the best climber out of those should also perform the best in the time trial.

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Awesome!!! aaand ignored....

 

[webvan]

It's OK Webbie, some people thought Lance was clean for a long time too.

Right, and you called him on the day of the 1999 Prologue too or did you start having doubts in the '98 Vuelta already?

 

[spetsa]

Right, and you called him on the day of the 1999 Prologue too or did you start having doubts in the '98 Vuelta already?

For some of us who have actually been around the sport, it was more like the 1993 Tour duPont.

 

[webvan]

Before EPO? Before the face of cycling changed? Interesting...and pretty irrelevant honestly.

 

[webbie146]

Tis a good post.

If you turn it around the other way.

Assume Sky is clean. The transformations from several riders is astronomical.

They haven't become a little bit better they've taken stratospheric leaps.

All this is done clean. Whist the rest of the peloton has stood still.

Even Contador now looks decidedly weak against Sky.

When I read the posts from those who say its 'plausible' they make excuses. Last year the course was flat. No Contador etc. This year is th same. Webvan was saying Froome won the prologue due to weak competition!

Take yourself back to the late 80's - 71kg climbers shouldn't even get in the Top 10 of a prologue let alone win one! It's just insane to see a rider like Froome win a 6km prologue. It's just not normal.

Wiggins will probably win the Giro. Last year many were saying he'll never win a GT again. He, Froome and Porte could share this years GT's between them. And clean!

That's something. All from one team. Even more incredible.

Froome is even lighter atm, his GF said on twitter he's 68kg

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Before EPO? Before the face of cycling changed? Interesting...and pretty irrelevant honestly.

Come on man, and you say you have been following cycling since 1978?

Uniballer got friggin second in LBL 1994. That is not on rice and cookies.
http://www.sportuitslagen.org/wielr...gen-heren-s2-c0-b0-g22-t44-u26-m46489-v1.html

Little game for you, spot the first non - Ferrari client.

Nice insight though. Indeed irrelevant. Too bad I do not believe in ignore lists, gotta read these kinda crap stuff.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: This Sky hater thing...is it hating if we think they are not clean and that it's all not bread and water.

Same stuff the Armstrong fanboys posted.