Sky is an Embrrassment

[greenedge]

Is it not possible to construct a 9 man team with 3 climbers, 4 speed demons, Wiggens, and Cavendish?

That's what HTC are probably doing this yr too anyway. So it is possible.
TJVG, P. Velits, Tony
Cav, Renshaw, Goss, Eisel
Workers ( Albasini, Pate, Roulston etc. )

I know you were asking a rhetorical question

 

[Mambo95]

1. Your idea is fine. I have no problem with your logic within reaspn, but it's application isn't taking into consideration the quality of the opposition.

2. I really like Tyler Farrar but against Cav he's never ever shown it.

3. Perhaps I will phrase it this way. Sky was founded with a well know but perhaps forgotten statement. "We will win the Tour by 2014."

4. I am in no way saying EBH is crap given your statement on another thread. He can have a successful time at Sky, but with Cav on the team I see him being an asset used to facilitate Cav, not his own ambitions.

I'm not going to quote you're whole thread. But I've picked out four bullet points.

1. So my idea is fine. So why say I was a 'nutter' and 'goofball'? This doesn't make you look good. Try and discuss points like an adult, not a petulant 12-year old (your far from the only person who does this).

2. We're not talking about Farrar going to Sky, are we? The fact Garmin couldn't launch TF to a stage win against Cav is not down to team support, it's because he's not as fast.

3. I'm amazed that anyone is still clinging on to that statement. Any British sports fan has heard it a hundred times across many sports. It's for the press, not an actual mission statement. Forget it.

4. EBH. There will be a few stages in a Tour that suit him - just like Gilbert - but that's it. He's not a GC guy and he's not as fast as Cav. So he will target his stages and will win some of them. But everything I've seen about EBH is that he loves racing. He's not going to sit and rest for 15 stages when he can get involved for the team.

 

[auscyclefan94]

No he isn't. You are the one being silly. Remember the two Aussies on the same team in 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008? Your the biggest fanboy of one of them. Now note their objectives.

Wigans is no Evans. FFS fools read the damn threads you lot bicker on regarding Cav's supposed new deal with Sky. ACF you made a comment about how ridiculous the reports were that Cav if he had signed/would sign his remuneration and new salary would only be on par with Wigans. Then extrapolate and carry on the base market assumptions that gives. You only pay a guy equal if he is as good, aka, you are going to give him the same opportunities. Natural conclusion is this means both will have goals and history has shown something has to give. Economic wise this is ridiculous and everyone of you calling Terminator stupid...well I don't have to ask, you probably count using your fingers and toes, meaning go back to school and learn to add. Financially this is really dumb, a theme talked about for over two years now in regards to Wigans contract. But most people around here have short memories. Really ACF94, how dumb are you dude? Drop out of the Biology lectures and drop by the Economics department next time your at uni. You will learn something in the first 10 minutes that is relevant in every market known to man.

To be fair, people were saying I was being lenient in describing Terminator's comments. I said he was being melodramtic. Some parts were reasonable if he toned it downa bit.

 

[Swabian Lass]

Hasn't Wiggins said that he wants to ride track at London 2012? This Tour is probably the last time we'll see him race seriously on the road if that's true. He'll be focused on the track next year.

I think that Brailsford has realised that he doesn't stand a chance of a Tour winner by 2014 and he's under pressure to bring in some wins. After all Rupert must be looking for a return on his money. From that point of view if the best sprinter in the world at the moment is British (sort of), you might as well sign him for a British team.

 

[El Pistolero]

Hasn't Wiggins said that he wants to ride track at London 2012? This Tour is probably the last time we'll see him race seriously on the road if that's true. He'll be focused on the track next year.

I think that Brailsford has realised that he doesn't stand a chance of a Tour winner by 2014 and he's under pressure to bring in some wins. After all Rupert must be looking for a return on his money. From that point of view if the best sprinter in the world at the moment is British (sort of), you might as well sign him for a British team.

Please don't use logic on the internet.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Hasn't Wiggins said that he wants to ride track at London 2012? This Tour is probably the last time we'll see him race seriously on the road if that's true. He'll be focused on the track next year.

I think that Brailsford has realised that he doesn't stand a chance of a Tour winner by 2014 and he's under pressure to bring in some wins. After all Rupert must be looking for a return on his money. From that point of view if the best sprinter in the world at the moment is British (sort of), you might as well sign him for a British team.

yep, so after this year wiggins will be back to 80 kg and focus on team pursuit. this will be his last dance as a gt rider after this it's for uran and henao

 

[movingtarget]

How many races does Wiggins win ? I think Sky is doing alright. They looked good in the Dauphine and Cavendish has shown that he does not always need a lead out from Renshaw to win. I think the team is good enough to ride for both GC and sprints as they have some good sprinters who will not be able to offer any support in the mountains but should offer good support to their best sprinter. It's all about getting the team balance right.

Only time to panic if the results dry up and I don't think they will. They have some talented riders.

 

[Midnightfright]

Hasn't Wiggins said that he wants to ride track at London 2012? This Tour is probably the last time we'll see him race seriously on the road if that's true. He'll be focused on the track next year.

I think that Brailsford has realised that he doesn't stand a chance of a Tour winner by 2014 and he's under pressure to bring in some wins. After all Rupert must be looking for a return on his money. From that point of view if the best sprinter in the world at the moment is British (sort of), you might as well sign him for a British team.

I think u underestimate how much money he has. He has probably forgotten that he sponsors a cycling team. I do agree though sky are being sensible in there ambitions now rhough. I think this is more about brailsford just wanting to make it a good a team as possible so that means dropping this silly mantra.

 

[Galic Ho]

I'm not going to quote you're whole thread. But I've picked out four bullet points.

1. So my idea is fine. So why say I was a 'nutter' and 'goofball'? This doesn't make you look good. Try and discuss points like an adult, not a petulant 12-year old (your far from the only person who does this).

Bahahaha. Sorry dude, you can't tell sarcasm? My mistake but how about you harden the F*%K up? Ok? It's a forum, stop being a ***** and getting all **** hurt over some elses opinion. You were visiting Idiotville for the day, not buying property and setting up home. There is a difference.

Read the fine print in what I said. I hate having to do this garbage all the time for people who can't extrapolate the finer points. I said your application was wrong. In theory each part individually is fine when viewed in that context. That was where you had to use your brain. Add them all together and it's ridiculous. Why? Because nobody anywhere in the world has tried to do it anytime in the last decade. Why? Because it can't be done. Aiming for Cav alone is fine. Having the current riders go for stage breakaways is fine. Having Wigans as a GC guy is fine. Doing all three together is bloody ***. Get the picture?

2. We're not talking about Farrar going to Sky, are we? The fact Garmin couldn't launch TF to a stage win against Cav is not down to team support, it's because he's not as fast.

Wrong again. How many stages in the last 3 Tour has Cav won. 15 now is it? How many of those did HTC pull back a breakaway alone? More than I care to go back and count. They also pulled many more back that almost caught the breakaway. All because they "believe" they can win. Then consider how many of those HTC had Renshaw as the leadout man for the entire peloton or on first wheel...too many yet again. Cav's in front of his opponents most of the damn time and by your own words faster overall, yeah I can see how this is going to play out. As I said, you only win what you do because someone else lets you. Garmin focus on other things. Their train is not as drilled. That's how it is. Too many other teams let HTC dictate the majority of the terms and don't want to hustle. If they manned up and out muscled Cav and HTC then we'd see a real show. It's mostly mental edge right now. Maybe Greipel and Lotto can try and upset them this Tour.

The sprint comes down to positioning, which is reliant upon team support. HTC outmuscle everyone and no other team has the nads to put up more than a minor assault on perhaps one, maybe two stages. That is why they don't win, not because they aren't fast enough. Cav has bad days. Last year the press ripped him apart before the Tour because he had been crap. Come the Tour other sprinters teams capitulate and pretty much give up when HTC hit the front in the last km. If Cav was pushed back past 5th or 6th wheel in the final 400 metres with two major opponents in front of him, he'd win a hell of a lot less. How often does that happen? Not often enough. Cav is mostly in 2nd, 3rd or 4th wheel. All his sprint rivals on his tail. If his opponents made his life more difficult, he'd still win, but not as often. HTC win because they have the best train and fastest guy. Farrar doesn't win because Garmin aim for GC placings. Nothing more. They have no train answer to Cav, hence you don't see them try. Why? I'd put it down to simple psychology and motivation.

You want to know what insanity is? Trying the same thing again and again and expecting different results. Ask Einstein. HTC's rivals need to mix it up and stop being dictated to. They don't and keep getting the same result, Cav winning. I don't know how people don't get it that they need to fight harder.

3. I'm amazed that anyone is still clinging on to that statement. Any British sports fan has heard it a hundred times across many sports. It's for the press, not an actual mission statement. Forget it.

Right the old, don't bring up our stupid public statements mumbo jumbo. As I said, stop being a *****, please. You must be British to get upset like this. Bahahaha, thanks for the laugh, not at you, but at the notion that someone cares enough to wish a fellow forumist would refrain in a thread as aptly named as this, in brining up stupid historical PR ramblings made in relation to their favourite Pro Tour team. Your getting upset over what someone else said? Might want to switch your allegiances champ. In Australia, we have a thing called accountability. Britain (just look at the govt's in recent times) have never heard of the word, when the do the affrain and flee from it. It's an authority thing in the UK. The play book reads as "I can say whatever I want but just don't remind me about it when I goof up."

Me personally, I get to bring it up because it is relevant. If it wasn't, some peckerwood PR guy and team director wouldn't have sat down and thought, why not state this when we have our first press conference. It explains a great deal behind the teams motivations, most particularly Brad Wigans and the insane money they'd poured into him. I'll correct myself. The original quote said a British rider would win the Tour. Then they hire Wigans on a uber high salary after coming 4th in the lamest Tour in 20 plus years. Idiots should have listened to Ali G and hired his expertise, "Keep it real." They should never have said anything. They should have focused on development. 3 years out from this publically declared goal Sky are no closer to reaching it. Dumb marketing. Keep it real and come back down to earth and drop the lofty expectations. I see the same garbage from the English football team and my how the masses cry when the publically listed goals that are outrageous never eventuate. Worse, being Brits, they often fall way short and you can predict on queue when the public will voice their outrage. As I said, keep it real! Not that I care, I get to poke fun at the spectacle and those who cry when I remind them how daft the guys they support have been in their PR BS.

4. EBH. There will be a few stages in a Tour that suit him - just like Gilbert - but that's it. He's not a GC guy and he's not as fast as Cav. So he will target his stages and will win some of them. But everything I've seen about EBH is that he loves racing. He's not going to sit and rest for 15 stages when he can get involved for the team.

[/quote]

Context dude, context. I said in a team that had both Cav and Wigans, EBH would be a devoted asset only. I also gave an explanation for when that won't occur, which as it stand is this years Tour. Will he win a stage? I doubt it, not that he doesn't have a chance, but only a few breakaways work each year. Take out the time trials and flat stages we all know Cav will win (statistically he's going to average 5 wins), the one he loses and that leaves what, 12 stages. Now EBH could be in a breakaway on one of those. His efforts amount to nothing. Only the French seem to come back day in day out for cracks at a win after being caught. Mountain stages aren't a guarantee for a win with Schleck and Contadors teams burning the bitumen up in the hills, meaning all up, you get maybe 6-8 guys at best winning a stage from a breakaway. Depends on the day before really. Thats maybe a third of the stages you have a decent shot of getting a guy into the winning break. Gilbert has far more success at this thing than EBH. There is a world of difference between them. Then consider we are contextually talking about the Tour. Personally, I think he'd be better off not racing the Tour and going for wins elsewhere.

 

[Galic Ho]

To be fair, people were saying I was being lenient in describing Terminator's comments. I said he was being melodramtic. Some parts were reasonable if he toned it downa bit.

The last part was more tongue in cheek by Terminator. Yes it was melodromatic, but wasn't serious IMO. I thought you of all people would appreciate the moral of the story, the cheddar, the nitty gritty truth behind his post given it has been repeated before at Lotto. You can't specialise your team at everything. All your eggs have to go in one basket if you want to come up trumps.

The fact Lotto won stages when they had two objectives came down to a few hard working Belgian lead out guys helping McEwen get up to the front and finally Robbie 90% of the time finding a way to zig zag through 10 sprinters to the finish line. If we went back to 2005-2007, if McEwen had the same train at the Tour Cav has, do you not think he'd have won more stages?

The first 3 pages of this thread all ridiculed Terminator. Funny how how the tone in posts changed after I posted isn't it? Then again, at the end of the day, I'm not the one who has to explain to the investors and suits at Sky, where all their money went and why we didn't deliver on half of what we said we would. Wigans will go down as a historic lesson to these British guys as how to not flush money down the crapper.

 

[simo1733]

Cav to Sky has been around since day 1.As a Sort of British rider he is worth more to Sky than anybody else.As for the 5 yr TdF plan, despite all the marketing BS, Sky and Brailsford are above all else pragmatic. They can't win the tour so they have changed tack.

 

[hfer07]

I wrote this on the Cav to sky thread:

let's cut the sh!t: We kind of knew that Cav was going to go to Sky sooner or later-BUT- what bothers me is the rationale behind Sky getting Uran & next year Henao to help Wiggins-if all of that is going to be thrown in the trash when Cav gets to "shape" the team to his needs?

 

[karlboss]

meh,

The strongest rider wins the yellow and the best sprinter takes green or the most stage wins. There are few exceptions.

If Sky contract Cav they'll have one of those 2. If they want GC in the next few years buy Contador, Shleck or...well someone other than wigans.

 

[Boeing]

Anyone else find Brains-ford's Chauvinistic approach to the make up of this team disturbing?

 

[Boeing]

meh,

The strongest rider wins the yellow and the best sprinter takes green or the most stage wins. There are few exceptions.

I

and the tires on your bike are the things that make contact with the road

 

[LugHugger]

Anyone else find Brains-ford's Chauvinistic approach to the make up of this team disturbing?

Nope. Do you feel the same about FdJ, Europcar, Lampre, Liquigas, Moviestar, Euskatel, OPL? All of these teams can start GC/Sprint leaders from their 'domestic' countries. It's hardly surprising, is it? You may not like Sky, but to isolate one team as chauvinistic is pure trolling.

 

[Anonymous]

I wrote this on the Cav to sky thread:

let's cut the sh!t: We kind of knew that Cav was going to go to Sky sooner or later-BUT- what bothers me is the rationale behind Sky getting Uran & next year Henao to help Wiggins-if all of that is going to be thrown in the trash when Cav gets to "shape" the team to his needs?

and as i said there (these threads really need merging. I asked for a merge when this one started but the mods thought better of it).

Henao and Uran are not there to domestique for wiggins. Brad has his tour shot this year, then there are 3 gt's a year, spain and italy for Uran/Henao to focus on along with development squads, the tour for cav until the youngesters are ready to challenge for the tour by which time cav will be 30 anyway and moved onto different objectives.

 

[just some guy]

The ting I find a bit funny is if HTC end or change direction - where would Cav go anyway ?

There is really only 1 team who have the cash and protour licence - SKY .

Greenedge maybe but they don´t have the licence.

 

[Andy99]

Anyone else find Brailsford's Chauvinistic approach to the make up of this team disturbing?

Nope. Just you.

Not really surprising that a team that is effecitvely part of British Cycling and British funded should target British riders is it? eh?

 

[Galic Ho]

Cav to Sky has been around since day 1.As a Sort of British rider he is worth more to Sky than anybody else.As for the 5 yr TdF plan, despite all the marketing BS, Sky and Brailsford are above all else pragmatic. They can't win the tour so they have changed tack.

They kind of need to change tact if not for their own ego. Nobody likes to be shown up on their own lofty ambitions. It shatters your confidence. Cav will get wins, bring attention to the team and appease the British fans and public. A smart buy no doubt. Plus he deserves the pay rise.