So....cav outside time limit but race organisers let him stay in TDF

[El Pistolero]

+1

The times I've heard people complain that sprinting is easy, all you have to do is follow the wheels and suddenly turn on the effort in the last 200 metres. Funny if it's that easy that top sprinters are so rare, surely all pros would see this as the easy route to winning races? It's horses for courses, and we need all types of riders to make an enjoyable Tour.

All sprinters say you either have the speed or you don't. So there, your argument is shot.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

All sprinters say you either have the speed or you don't. So there, your argument is shot.

I'm not even sure what you're argument is, to say whether it's shot or not.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

this thread continues to fail in so many ways.

the main one being the idea that the grupetto are lounging around when they swan in just on or behind the time limit

I'd like to see any poster whining about cutoffs beat Cav and Thor's time up Ventoux in 2009.

there is a good clue in the Etape fastest time as to your likely chances

(the sarcasm in the Rojas post was just a little too subtle)

You're forgetting 2 things. One, that the Etape winner probably does a fair bit of work himself into the wind, up the climb, whereas Cav spends a lot of it hiding behind Bernie's backside. Secondly, Cav spends most of the climb sat in the passenger seat of the HTC team car, of course.

 

[El Pistolero]

I'm not even sure what you're argument is, to say whether it's shot or not.

you're born with the speed. Hence there are so little top sprinters. Contador can't just decide to become a sprinter if he wanted to... He doesn't have the physiology for it.

But it's a well known fact that sitting in wheels all day is easier than riding in the wind. So yeah, sprinters have it easier than most other type of cyclists.

Sprinting to me is the easiest discipline in cycling, but I also realize it's one of the most dangerous ones due to the risk of falling when the bunch sprint is unleashed. But still, I have little respect for Cav's 20 victories compared to what climbers have to go through.

 

[woodie]

All sprinters say you either have the speed or you don't. So there, your argument is shot.

Thats what he was saying.... Did you read his post properly?

 

[woodie]

you're born with the speed. Hence there are so little top sprinters. Contador can't just decide to become a sprinter if he wanted to... He doesn't have the physiology for it.

But it's a well known fact that sitting in wheels all day is easier than riding in the wind. So yeah, sprinters have it easier than most other type of cyclists.

Sprinting to me is the easiest discipline in cycling, but I also realize it's one of the most dangerous ones due to the risk of falling when the bunch sprint is unleashed. But still, I have little respect for Cav's 20 victories compared to what climbers have to go through.

Your right in that sprinters are born with speed but in my experience the pure sprinters lack in endurance and are horrible climbers. As a result they have to work on their endurance to make sure they are fresh at the finish and do what they can with their climbing just to survive.

I have great respect for climbers, their abilities and what they go through but sprinting is hard in it's own way

 

[El Pistolero]

Your right in that sprinters are born with speed but in my experience the pure sprinters lack in endurance and are horrible climbers. As a result they have to work on their endurance to make sure they are fresh at the finish and do what they can with their climbing just to survive.

I have great respect for climbers, their abilities and what they go through but sprinting is hard in it's own way

A person has got to respect Cav's ability to place him self in a sprint yes. But I still find it an "easy" victory when I see it on TV. Other type of cyclists often attack with more than 50km to go to bring home the victory. Cav only 200 meters... And that's where I lose a lot of respect for pure sprinters. Look at Cipo, his G-W win was pure art! That's what sprinters should do more! I have a lot more respect for the power sprinters like Erik Zabel, Tom Boonen, Thor Hushovd, etc

 

[woodie]

A person has got to respect Cav's ability to place him self in a sprint yes. But I still find it an "easy" victory when I see it on TV. Other type of cyclists often attack with more than 50km to go to bring home the victory. Cav only 200 meters... And that's where I lose a lot of respect for pure sprinters. Look at Cipo, his G-W win was pure art! That's what sprinters should do more! I have a lot more respect for the power sprinters like Erik Zabel, Tom Boonen, Thor Hushovd, etc

Thats because Cav doesn't have the strength or physiology to do that. He is built as a sprinter, he has that 10-15sec burst and thats it. I'm sure he'd love to break away with 50km to go and win solo but he can't because he's built wrong for that, sure he could work on it but why risk what he already has? The guys you mention are built strong with speed on top, plus to be fair, Cav hasn't been allowed to race like those guys by the team

Just out of curiousity, do you race?

 

[El Pistolero]

Thats because Cav doesn't have the strength or physiology to do that. He is built as a sprinter, he has that 10-15sec burst and thats it. I'm sure he'd love to break away with 50km to go and win solo but he can't because he's built wrong for that, sure he could work on it but why risk what he already has?

Just out of curiousity, do you race?

Yes, but purely for fun and not in any type of races. As I can see your next question coming: no, I wouldn't dare of throwing my self in a bunch sprint. They're very hectic.

I know Cav can't do it, that's why I respect cyclists who can do it more

 

[woodie]

Yes, but purely for fun and not in any type of races. As I can see your next question coming: no, I wouldn't dare of throwing my self in a bunch sprint. They're very hectic.

I know Cav can't do it, that's why I respect cyclists who can do it more

I wasn't going to ask that actually, it's just interesting that you think sprinting is so easy but you don't race or sprint. No offence but how can you know how hard/easy it is if you don't do it?

Cav's doing what he can with what he's got and I admire all the pro's for that reason

 

[El Pistolero]

I wasn't going to ask that actually, it's just interesting that you think sprinting is so easy but you don't race or sprint. No offence but how can you know how hard/easy it is if you don't do it?

Cav's doing what he can with what he's got and I admire all the pro's for that reason

Sprinters are riding a bloc for 200 meters. Climbers are riding a bloc for more than 10km sometimes. I find it easier to sprint for 200 meters than to ride up the Mont Ventoux. Like every normal person

If Cav was riding a bloc up these mountain stages, then why is he winning sprints the next day with incredible ease against sprinters who can climb better?

 

[woodie]

Sprinters are riding a bloc for 200 meters. Climbers are riding a bloc for more than 10km sometimes. I find it easier to sprint for 200 meters than to ride up the Mont Ventoux. Like every normal person

If Cav was riding a bloc up these mountain stages, then why is he winning sprints the next day with incredible ease against sprinters who can climb better?

I know that, but if you've been in a race, with an average of 46km/h in the wind and then you have to sprint at the end, you'd understand thats it's not so easy. I'm not saying climbing is easy, its effing hard, but sprinting isn't either. I'm sure Cav is suffering just as much as everyone else up the climbs but he just has amazing speed and an amazing train. Sprinters who can climb half decent don't usually have the same top end speed on a flat sprint that pure sprinters do.

It looks to me that your just watching a race on tv and making assumptions from that, sure Cav has it easy sometimes as do other sprinters, but im positive there are times climbers have it easy too. Racing is hard full stop. If it's not hard your in the wrong division, whether your climing, sprinting, TT'ing or whatever.

 

[El Pistolero]

I know that, but if you've been in a race, with an average of 46km/h in the wind and then you have to sprint at the end, you'd understand thats it's not so easy. I'm not saying climbing is easy, its effing hard, but sprinting isn't either.

It looks to me that your just watching a race on tv and making assumptions from that, sure Cav has it easy sometimes as do other sprinters, but im positive there are times climbers have it easy too. Racing is hard full stop. If it's not hard your in the wrong division, whether your climing, sprinting, TT'ing or whatever.

But Cav is never in the wind. Climbers have to be up front in flat stages as well, they have it a lot harder than sprinters.

They're professional cyclists, riding 46km/h shouldn't be a problem for even the worst cyclist in the peloton.

 

[woodie]

But Cav is never in the wind. Climbers have to be up front in flat stages as well, they have it a lot harder than sprinters.

They're professional cyclists, riding 46km/h shouldn't be a problem for even the worst cyclist in the peloton.

Climbers can hide in the peloton just the same as other sprinters, and they don't have to sprint at the end.

What it comes down to is that sprinters are born with speed and they have to use that, it's just the way they are. Just like people are born gay, there's nothing they can do about it. Climbers are born to climb, that's their talent and what they have to work with. Bagging on riders because they simply don't have the ability through physiology is weak in my opinion.

But your entitled to your opinion and thats fine. Just trying to explain that sprinting isn't as easy as everyone seems to think it is

 

[euanli]

Your analogy is skewed. Because sprinters have it hard trying to keep up with the climbers when they are in the bus. Just because the race is kms in front of them doesn't mean they aren't racing.

It is just as hard for climbers in sprint stages as it is for sprinters in mountain stages, if not slightly easier.

 

[Hawkwood]

I know that, but if you've been in a race, with an average of 46km/h in the wind and then you have to sprint at the end, you'd understand thats it's not so easy. I'm not saying climbing is easy, its effing hard, but sprinting isn't either. I'm sure Cav is suffering just as much as everyone else up the climbs but he just has amazing speed and an amazing train. Sprinters who can climb half decent don't usually have the same top end speed on a flat sprint that pure sprinters do.

It looks to me that your just watching a race on tv and making assumptions from that, sure Cav has it easy sometimes as do other sprinters, but im positive there are times climbers have it easy too. Racing is hard full stop. If it's not hard your in the wrong division, whether your climing, sprinting, TT'ing or whatever.

I agree. I saw the `Chasing legends' film the other day. It was interesting to hear Cav talking about a stage with a cat 3 climb near the end that he targetted. It meant killing himself climbing near the front of the bunch while pretending to find it easy in order to bluff his rivals. The moment others knew he was suffering they would have put the hammer down. He won the stage. It is the job of a sprinter to keep in the right position throughout a race and be there at the end, it is the job of others to stop this happening by breaking away, making life hard on climbs etc.

Finally from a news item on the BBC it's clear that Cav trains in the mountains, so obviously he knows he has to prepare for them.

 

[Winterfold]

As usual much of the argument is a result of the CN forum grimpeur hegemony not accepting sprinters or rouleurs as being worthy as grimpeurs.

For the winners

Climbing the Alpe is one kind of pain

Doing a 42km ITT is another kind of pain.

Descending at 80kmh can be many kinds of pain

And doing 75kmh on the flat in an aggresive sprint situation is also pain. Maybe short-lived but at a totally different intensity to the above.

Do you want to hurt a little for a long time, or do you want to hurt a lot for a little time?

To me it is all beautiful, and which is hardest is a matter of subjectivity and prejudice. Why not enjoy it all?

King of the Wold - reasonable points - I am just fed up with non-cyclists dismissing the climbing of Cav, Farrar, Thor and the rest of the bus as 'lazy' and 'coasting' - they havent got a clue. The guy who 'won' the Etape will almost certainly be an ex-pro anyway. I havent checked him out. I would have been happy with a time less than 2 hours behind Rollands

 

[Caledon]

But Cav is never in the wind. Climbers have to be up front in flat stages as well, they have it a lot harder than sprinters.

They're professional cyclists, riding 46km/h shouldn't be a problem for even the worst cyclist in the peloton.

Well we can always rely on your steadfast hatred of Cav to distort your perception of reality. God, you don't half talk some bollox at times. Why don't you just sit down have a good hard think and say perhaps today I won't inflict my asinine thoughts on the other readers of this forum. Please, please, please, give it a rest......

 

[King Of The Wolds]

King of the Wold - reasonable points - I am just fed up with non-cyclists dismissing the climbing of Cav, Farrar, Thor and the rest of the bus as 'lazy' and 'coasting' - they havent got a fecking clue. The guy who 'won' the Etape will almost certainly be an ex-pro anyway. I havent checked him out. I would have been happy with a time less than 2 hours behind Rollands

No, of course, I'm with you. I was partly playing devil's advocate, partly being sarcastic and partly raising the reasonable point, which you acknowledged. I don't complain about the grupetto and their actions and think the current rules are about the right balance to, quite frankly, a pretty negligible issue.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

you're born with the speed. Hence there are so little top sprinters.

That's not true. You're born with either a natural amount of fast twitch fibres or slow twitch fibres. Once you're born with these, you then have to work like ******y to either become a world class sprinter or a world class climber. And even harder to become the very best, like Cavendish or Contador. They hugely talented, sure, but they didn't win a genetic lottery which meant they were destined to become the best. They've just worked harder and smarter than everybody else. That's just as impressive, either way. Same as if you're Usain Bolt or Kenenisa Bekele.

As for it being easier to win sprint stages compared to other stages, I'm not convinced. Who's won the most TdF stages - Merckx, Hinault, Leducq and Armstrong. Don't see many sprinters there. The advent of a dominant sprint train in the last 10-15 years has probably meant it's a bit easier to be consistent if you're as good as a Cavendish or Cipo, but these 2 aside, the sprints have been shared around in this time - Boonen, McEwen, Petacchi, Hushovd, Bennati have all won a few (as have a bunch of non-sprinters, like Cancellara, Contador, Schlecks, Valverde, Chavanel, etc.).

Quite simply, only 1 man can win a stage, whether it's a TT, Sprint or MTF, out of a start list of some 200 odd riders and 20 odd teams, and they all want a piece of the action. The chances of success are therefore the same, they all work just as hard to get it and we should laud them all equally.

 

[Derrick]

Back from holiday and so I can answer your question SirLes which was what sort of job do I have that enables me to waste time on the computer. Quite simply Les I don't have a job and haven't had for about 15 years. I find that my own resourses are more than adequate for the way I live. There! You said you were jealous before so you may well be even more jealous now. I'd love to be able to say that I was living on what I earned bike racing but I'd have been bankrupt in very short order. In fact I always used to tell young hopefuls that the best way to earn money on the bike was to ride it to work. {Except one who I recommended to 2 team managers and who became very successful.}
Which brings me to my next point. We all have plenty to say on sites like this and the question is occasionally asked as to what experiences have we had that we base our opinions on. I've made it clear that I think, notwithstanding whether time limits are good or bad or sprinters are bone idle or points should be deducted or not, that liberties were being taken. They often are in professional sport.It's known as "gamesmanship". Many of you thought otherwise. I am sure it would be of interest if the background experiences that you used to form your opinions were bought out into the open. Do you draw on your own racing career? Have you been a promoter or an agent or a manager? Or have you watched races over the years,formed friendships with those on the inside?

 

[El Pistolero]

That's not true. You're born with either a natural amount of fast twitch fibres or slow twitch fibres. Once you're born with these, you then have to work like ******y to either become a world class sprinter or a world class climber. And even harder to become the very best, like Cavendish or Contador. They hugely talented, sure, but they didn't win a genetic lottery which meant they were destined to become the best. They've just worked harder and smarter than everybody else. That's just as impressive, either way. Same as if you're Usain Bolt or Kenenisa Bekele.

As for it being easier to win sprint stages compared to other stages, I'm not convinced. Who's won the most TdF stages - Merckx, Hinault, Leducq and Armstrong. Don't see many sprinters there. The advent of a dominant sprint train in the last 10-15 years has probably meant it's a bit easier to be consistent if you're as good as a Cavendish or Cipo, but these 2 aside, the sprints have been shared around in this time - Boonen, McEwen, Petacchi, Hushovd, Bennati have all won a few (as have a bunch of non-sprinters, like Cancellara, Contador, Schlecks, Valverde, Chavanel, etc.).

Quite simply, only 1 man can win a stage, whether it's a TT, Sprint or MTF, out of a start list of some 200 odd riders and 20 odd teams, and they all want a piece of the action. The chances of success are therefore the same, they all work just as hard to get it and we should laud them all equally.

If Cav works harder than the rest then why is he such a fat ass in most races that aren't labeled Grand Tour? Guys like Usain Bolt just won the lottery ticket as far as genetics go. All these professionals work about as hard, but some are just much better.

Just because you're born with superior genetics doesn't mean you don't have to train anymore lol. I wonder how you got that out of my post.

 

[jazzcyclist]

I'd bet that on the stage where HTC had to go back and get Cavendish, he suffered as much as anyone on that stage. On the other hand, nobody has it easier than climbers on sprint stages. The only climbers who might suffer on sprint stages are the ones on the team of the yellow jersey and the sprinters' teams.

 

[ferryman]

If Cav works harder than the rest then why is he such a fat ass in most races that aren't labeled Grand Tour? Guys like Usain Bolt just won the lottery ticket as far as genetics go. All these professionals work about as hard, but some are just much better.

Just because you're born with superior genetics doesn't mean you don't have to train anymore lol. I wonder how you got that out of my post.

Keep it going El P. The desparate nonsense the little Englanders and unfortunately little Scotlanders are throwing at you is making me laugh.

 

[jazzcyclist]

Guys like Usain Bolt just won the lottery ticket as far as genetics go. All these professionals work about as hard, but some are just much better.

Just because you're born with superior genetics doesn't mean you don't have to train anymore lol. I wonder how you got that out of my post.

Amen! While it's true that Cavendish, Bolt, Contador and Beleke have a wee bit more talent than their peers, they still have to work just as hard as their peers for that talent to manifest itself. The difference between Peyton Manning and Jamarcus Russell isn't talent, it's work ethic.