So Suddenly the Tour is clean. Where did this idea come from

[Franklin]

HCT's performance
Gilbert/Vanendert performances
Evans - 195 doses of EPO hmmm - his performance contrasted with the DL.
Dertie - while everyone else who rode the Giro ie RK is an hour+ or so back Dertie is less than 4 minutes down despite crashing, getting caught in a crash and a poorish Suxo TTT. Basically, Galibier was the only day when he lost a large amount of time and even then it was only with 1.5km to go, not at the foot of the climb. Contrast to the likes of Basso etc who went out early on.
Schlecks performance.

1. What's so overpowering about HTC?
2. Uhm yes, hard to deny that OPL has made some disturbing strides. The "it's because everyone is clean" sounds hollow in my own ears.
3. Case from 2009, he joined BMC in 2010. But if the point is BMC is always dirty, the point stands.
4. His power numbers seem to be human. I'm not buying the "double is impossible" mantra.
5. See #4, the performance seems to indicate they are less charged.

So I'm sure cycling is dirty. But I have no other explanation than that it's less dirty than in many years if we look at the power numbers+how it played out.

Keep in mind that the power numbers have been on the decline for a few years now. So unless everyone is less talented right now it's clear something really changed.

And sure, if an undetectable designer dope hits the market everything will change for the worst again.

 

[sniper]

(...)
Dertie - while everyone else who rode the Giro ie RK is an hour+ or so back Dertie is less than 4 minutes down despite crashing, getting caught in a crash and a poorish Suxo TTT. Basically, Galibier was the only day when he lost a large amount of time and even then it was only with 1.5km to go, not at the foot of the climb. Contrast to the likes of Basso etc who went out early on.
(...)

if we talk about perception, i think Contador has been perceived of (by the bigger audience) as not doing that great, i.e. as underachieving, which in turn caused many spectators and commentators to argue that the tour was cleaner.

interesting, you say AC actually achieved better than expected.
And i think i agree. Not only did he finish top 5, he was also unlucky to loose time and get injured during the first couple of stages.
if that hadn't happened, he'd have been a contender for the victory.

 

[personal]

Question: is the rule on haematocrit upper limit at 50 per cent stil used?
With bio-passport and all?

 

[Benotti69]

It would appear the TdF is back to using PEDs for recuperative uses rather than charging although i have no doubt they are micro dosing but there appears to be a fear out there of the French.

I await to read/hear the opinions of Michael Ashenden and also Kimmage who was on this years TdF.

But it does appear that team's programs are effective as they fly under the radar, which is considered a 'clean' TdF by McQuaid and Verbrugghen and their lackey's in the media

 

[sniper]

It would appear the TdF is back to using PEDs for recuperative uses rather than charging although i have no doubt they are micro dosing but there appears to be a fear out there of the French.

I await to read/hear the opinions of Michael Ashenden and also Kimmage who was on this years TdF.

But it does appear that team's programs are effective as they fly under the radar, which is considered a 'clean' TdF by McQuaid and Verbrugghen and their lackey's in the media

in this interview (on the first rest day of the tour), Kimmage says he trusts Vandevelde and Millar, so he seems to believe Garmin is clean.
he also says he's been seeing more fatigue in the faces, which he takes as a good sign.

http://www.sportschau.de/sp/tour2011/aktuell/kw28/interview_kimmage_20110714.jsp

 

[nesocip]

Question: is the rule on haematocrit upper limit at 50 per cent stil used?
With bio-passport and all?

Yes

4567890

 

[unsheath]

Its possible that many riders scaled back or even dropped their program since the leaked UCI suspicion list. Be interesting to revisit the list and compare rider performances.

 

[skippy]

FIRST OFF I WOULD LIKE TO APOLOGISE TO CADEL FOR THINKING THAT HE COULD NOT ACHIEVE THE WIN !

Since 2230hrs last night you guys have been dreaming up ways to say that this was not a "Clean " TDF !

Maybe there will be some of you who will be ashamed of your behaviour in this thread but the others had better have " untracable " IP addresses as i am sure you will now find yourselves the victims of the "Lawyers Posses" that will be looking to terminate your exercises in suspicion , innuendo & defamation !

 

[Bavarianrider]

There's no doubt that this year's Tour was a lot cleaner then recent ones.

 

[El Pistolero]

There's no doubt that this year's Tour was a lot cleaner then recent ones.

And then Tony won the time trial.

 

[sniper]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/2011-tour-de-france-the-cleanest-in-recent-years

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

if we talk about perception, i think Contador has been perceived of (by the bigger audience) as not doing that great, i.e. as underachieving, which in turn caused many spectators and commentators to argue that the tour was cleaner.

interesting, you say AC actually achieved better than expected.
And i think i agree. Not only did he finish top 5, he was also unlucky to loose time and get injured during the first couple of stages.
if that hadn't happened, he'd have been a contender for the victory.

Compare Dertie 2011 to Basso 2010, Evans 2010 and Menchov 2009, RK 2011.

All of them (none of whom are choirboys) rode the TDF after hard Giro's and all sucked. Dertie really only 'suffered' on the Galibier stage. And we are supposed to believe that this tour is cleaner?

The race might have been slightly cleaner but Dertie's performance was well, dirty.

 

[Franklin]

Compare Dertie 2011 to Basso 2010, Evans 2010 and Menchov 2009, RK 2011.

All the others (none of whom are choirboys) rode the TDF after hard Giro's and all sucked. Dertie really only 'suffered' on the Galibier stage. And we are supposed to believe that this tour is cleaner?

The race might have been slightly cleaner but Dertie's performance was well, dirty.

Obviously this makes Laurent Fignon and Hinault dirty epo-users as well.

Seriously, which none-choirboy did you see except Kreuziger? AFAIK only two contenders did the Giro, Roman and Alberto.

I'd say it's way to early to say that the giro-TdF is impossible.


Oh and what kind of TdF did you watch? I have seen AC suffer every MTF. That the Schlecks didn't eviscerate him in the Pyrenees was their retardation, not AC's strength.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

Compare Dertie 2011 to Basso 2010, Evans 2010 and Menchov 2009, RK 2011.

Contador is ten times the rider of those two put together. Menchov's chief talent is picking grand tours with second rate competition. Basso is nothing compared to the rider he was in 2006.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Sorry but that doesn't make much sense to me and I don't see what Fignon and and Hinault have to do with anything.

To clarify because my original post wasn't clear. I am talking about how riders have done in recent years compared to other riders. Basso tried to do the double and sucked (we assume he is 'cleaner' than 2006), etc Menchov tried to do the double and sucked (we assume he is super dirty), Cuddles had a hard Giro 2010 and then sucked, RK sucked this year. Dertie is the one rider who bucks the trend.

The last rider who produced a strong Giro followed by a strong TDF was Ricco in 2008, and we all know what happened there.

You can view Dertie's performance one of two ways - in the EPO blood transfusing period the double was impossible which is why Menchov etc went out the back so quickly when they tried. Or you can say that Dertie is on exactly the same stuff he is on in the Giro when he made Scaponi, Nibs, RK and Wacky look like amateurs.

To my mind Dertie is as dirty as ever and this is why 'cleanest ever tour' rings hollow.

Personally, I think that if Horner, LL, JB, Kloeden etc had made it to the mountains we would have seen a different tour and maybe the return of the mountain train (unless the rumours of Hog being paranoid are true). Vino was still charging when he crashed. JVDB is toxic, Wiggums is hardly a vision of clean racing.

We could have had a top ten of Schlecks, RS riders, AC, Cuddles Wiggums, JVDB, and Vino would we be saying the tour looked cleaner then?

I suspect it is luck rather than judgement that the tour looks cleaner. Crashes killed the chargers.

 

[Frosty]

The last rider who produced a strong Giro followed by a strong TDF was Ricco in 2008, and we all know what happened there.

Menchov 2008?

 

[Frosty]

Seriously, which none-choirboy did you see except Kreuziger? AFAIK only two contenders did the Giro, Roman and Alberto.

I'd say it's way to early to say that the giro-TdF is impossible.

John Gadret tried to do both but dropped out early in the tour from tiredness.

Dupont did both - finished the Giro in 12th and is 22nd in the tour at 36 minutes.

Not many contenders have done both though, maybe the ones who wanted to concentrate on the tour were put off doing the Giro and the Giro contenders decided on following up with the Vuelta. That tells its own story though i guess.

 

[Franklin]

Sorry but that doesn't make much sense to me and I don't see what Fignon and and Hinault have to do with anything.

I am talking about how riders have done in recent years compared to other riders.

The last rider who produced a strong Giro followed by a strong TDF was Ricco in 2008, and we all know what happened there.

You forget menchov, but that ought to be under a cloud as well.

But here is the point: In a cleaner era it has been done. In a dirtier era it has been done.

Why would it all of a sudden be impossible for a super-talent (with or without charge)

You can view Dertie's performance one of two ways - in the EPO blood transfusing period the double was impossible which is why Menchov etc went out the back so quickly when they tried. Or you can say that Dertie is on exactly the same stuff he is on in the Giro when he made Scaponi, Nibs, RK and Wacky look like amateurs.

First of only Nibali is a real contender in my eyes and even then, there were no Schlecks, there was a weak Menchov and a weak Sastre. Did you expect anything else when you saw that line up?

To my mind Dertie is as dirty as ever.

So, you mean to say that somehow the power numbers magically fell even though he was super charged? Because someone like Indurain did fine and he was probably a huge charger as well.

Note that I do not say he isn't dirty, but to uphold his performance as proof for being dirty is quite odd... both cleaner and dirtier riders have done much better. So how do we look at those performances?

 

[Franklin]

Dupont did both - finished the Giro in 12th and is 22nd in the tour at 36 minutes.

Isn't that within the margin of probability? I'd say the difference between 12 Giro and 22 TdF considering the field isn't that large.

 

[killswitch]

It seemed like Cuddles was overcharged yesterday. Perhaps seeing as it was one of his last chances to win and being afraid to lose again by mere seconds. At least he could have slowed down at the end to make it more believable.

 

[Franklin]

It seemed like Cuddles was overcharged yesterday. Perhaps seeing as it was one of his last chances to win and being afraid to lose again by mere seconds. At least he could have slowed down at the end to make it more believable.

Surely Fignon and Lemond who had to TT after a terrible Alpe week in 1989 were on epo.

I mean, dominating (even winning) mountain stages left and right, crushing everyone else in the TT... impossible in a clean era.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

I don't really see anything that makes me think Dertie finishing 5th is a sign of a cleaner peloton.

I certainly don't think that Dertie has had a pauline conversion and is suddenly riding clean.

Now it maybe that just as Voeckler is flattered by the absence of Horner etc, so Dertie's performance is inflated by the absence of a lot of riders.

It may also be that Dertie is as supercharged as ever (although not at 2008 levels) which is how he is able to finish top 5 in the TDF after easily winning the hardest Giro ever.

As I say, the fact that Dertie can do what no other rider has been able to do in recent times (bar Pantani, Ricco and Menchov) does not scream 'cleaner peloton' to me.

 

[Franklin]

As I say, the fact that Dertie can do what no other rider has been able to do in recent times (bar Pantani, Ricco and Menchov) does not scream 'cleaner peloton' to me.

A serious question: Who tried?

And I'm talking top contenders here, people who won a GT.

 

[killswitch]

Surely Fignon and Lemond who had to TT after a terrible Alpe week in 1989 were on epo.

I mean, dominating (even winning) mountain stages left and right, crushing everyone else in the TT... impossible in a clean era.

Cadel beat his own time from the Dauphine after 20 hard stages by more than a minute to finish along with Tony Martin, who rested/prepared for the ITT since stage 12...

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

If we say top 10 Giro. Bold indicates top ten in giro, top ten in TDF. Underline indicates top 3 in Giro, italic top 5 TDF.

2011 - Dertie, RK, Gadret, Dupont
2010 - Basso, Evans, Vino, Sastre
2009 - Menchov, FP, Sastre, LL
2008 - Ricco, Menchov
2007 -
2006 - Simoni, Cunego

Dertie is the first person to have managed top 3 in Giro and top 5 in the TDF since I am guessing Pantani.