So Suddenly the Tour is clean. Where did this idea come from

[sniper]

if the tour contained more clean riders or even clean teams than in other years, wouldn't we have expected more riders/teammanagers to raise their voice and complain e.g. about AC's participation or raise questions regarding the 195 BMC ampuls?

I heard a couple of guys "more or less" complaining that AC's case had not been ressolved before the start, but I heard not a single rider really complaining about Dirty being obviously dirty... And I heard not a single rider/teammanager questioning BMC's cleanliness.

This leaves a couple of possibilities:

1. the number of doped riders is the same as every year (regardless of whether they are actually doping less heavily or not)

2. there are more clean riders now, but they are still outnumbered by dirty riders and thus do not dare to challenge the omerta...

3. there are more clean riders, and they somehow don't care that they are being cheated by dirty riders such as Dirty.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

A serious question: Who tried?

And I'm talking top contenders here, people who won a GT.

Riders who tried the double seriously?

I think Basso, Menchov, Simoni all tried - and they all failed. Basso in 2006 looks like he would have been a good bet...

As far as I can tell, since Pantani, Dertie is the only rider who has won the Giro and then finished top 5 in the TDF, only Menchov 2008 is the other rider to have finished top 5 Giro and top 5 TDF. Although I maybe wrong about this.

Dertie 2008 is the only rider to have managed a double of any kind and that was when CERA was all the rage.

Then we have to go back over 20 years to find other examples.

 

[Franklin]

Cadel beat his own time from the Dauphine after 20 hard stages by more than a minute to finish along with Tony Martin, who rested/prepared for the ITT since stage 12...

Cadel was motivated and did better than a preparation course... is that your point? WOW... let me repeat that: Cadel did better than his prepartaion course... huh? How is that even humanly possible? I'm so stunned about this... this is just... so amazing....


Greg Lemond posted the fastest TT ever after a gruelling mountain week. Oh and he certainly was better than the Giro he did....

IMPOSSIBLE!

In 1983 after an Alpe week Fignon won his first TT ever. Peter Winnen managed a crazy fifth place.

EXTRATERRESTIAL!

Hinault always won the final TT clobbering his opponents!

SHEHANIGANS!

They all used an experimental france version of Epo, it was almost forgotten, but your posts shows there are still people who notice these things.

Bottom line: Cadel doing well in the final TT proves absolutely nothing at all.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Aren't those Lemond/Hinault comparisons rather specious?

And actually, it's just your opinion that Cuddles' improved ITT proves nothing at all.

It's a sophist argument.

You can interpret or spin (depending on your mindset) the evidence to show anything at all. The reality is we won't know until the dust has settled in the sky as to whether or not this was really a 'cleaner tour'. At the moment all we are doing is reading tea leaves looking for possible patterns, explanations and then trying to interpret them. This is why in my original post I offered up reasons for thinking the tour is cleaner, some caveats as I see them and then somethings that made me think that not much had changed. Dertie's performance strikes me as something that the peloton hasn't changed rather than the other way round.

 

[killswitch]

Cadel was motivated and did better than a preparation course... is that your point? WOW... let me repeat that: Cadel did better than his prepartaion course... huh? How is that even humanly possible? I'm so stunned about this... this is just... so amazing....


Greg Lemond posted the fastest TT ever after a gruelling mountain week. Oh and he certainly was better than the Giro he did....

IMPOSSIBLE!

In 1983 after an Alpe week Fignon won his first TT ever. Peter Winnen managed a crazy fifth place.

EXTRATERRESTIAL!

Hinault always won the final TT clobbering his opponents!

SHEHANIGANS!

They all used an experimental france version of Epo, it was almost forgotten, but your posts shows there are still people who notice these things.

Bottom line: Cadel doing well in the final TT proves absolutely nothing at all.

LOL at trying to prove your point with arguments that have nothing in common with/or are similar with Cadel's case.

 

[Franklin]

Riders who tried the double seriously?

I think Basso, Menchov, Simoni all tried - and they all failed. Basso in 2006 looks like he would have been a good bet...

Basso: different age, but he was going in as THE favorite with Jan. Both did well at the Giro (Basso won, Jan won the TT) but had some mishap with OP ^^
Simoni: Just too much a one trick pony, but definitely someone who supports your theory.

Menchov: Considering fifth in the TdF is close to his best ever I'm not sure it's a failure.

As far as I can tell, since Pantani, Dertie is the only rider who have won the Giro and finished top 5 in the TDF, only Menchov 2008 is the other rider to have finished top 5 Giro and top 5 TDF. Although I maybe wrong about this.

But the truth is that the truly great did just that: Pantani did doubles, Indurain did it, Rominger did it, Fignon did it, Hinault did it. Both with and without epo it has been done

Why wouldn't a superman do it again? With or without charging?

Dertie 2008 is the only rider to have managed a double of any kind and that was when CERA was all the rage.

I think that's nonsense.

Sastre! (several times)
Evans
Jrod

Why is the TdF Vuelta possible yet Giro-TdF impossible?

 

[Franklin]

LOL at trying to prove your point with arguments that have nothing in common with/or are similar with Cadel's case.

No indeed... whereupon I have examples from a clean era of people who did it Cadel's case surely means he is charged. So Cadel prerformance is proof whereupon every other rider who did it is "unrelated". Build your house from straw, that way I don't have to puff so much

Also, say it loud and clear:

It is amazing that Cadel does better when his dream is on the line than in a preparation race.

Sounds good doesn't it?

 

[killswitch]

No indeed... whereupon I have examples from a clean era of people who did it Cadel's case surely means he is charged.

Also, say it loud and clear:

It is amazing that Cadel does better when his dream is on the line than in a preparation race.

Sounds good doesn't it?

It's amazing that it's done after 1) three weeks of hard racing, 2) attacking in the stages with the descents and the efforts in the Galibier stages, where only the Schleckette expended more energy than him, 3) finishing on par with the second best time trialist in the world, who based his entire season around the TDF and has been soft-pedalling since Luz Ardiden.

 

[Franklin]

Aren't those Lemond/Hinault comparisons rather specious?

Why? Fast last TT's are from all ages, why is this year all of a sudden super suspicious?

And actually, it's just your opinion that Cuddles' improved ITT proves nothing at all.

Sorry, but what does it proof? Where is the smoking gun? Is it more than your opinion that it proves he's dirty?

It's a sophist argument.

You can interpret or spin (depending on your mindset) the evidence to show anything at all.

BINGO! So it doesn't proof anything!

The reality is we won't know until the dust has settled in the sky as to whether or not this was really a 'cleaner tour'. At the moment all we are doing is reading tea leaves looking for possible patterns, explanations and then trying to interpret them. This is why in my original post I offered up reasons for thinking the tour is cleaner, some caveats as I see them and then somethings that made me think that not much had changed.

We have two solid facts:

1. Times are slower
2. This means wattages are lower... and oddly enough they are really close to what Greg Lemond said about his own wattage.

If Greg is clean, which almost certainly he was it stands to reason that 25 years later with better training/material/roads/less kilometres riders are close to his performance.

Now this certainly isn't proof, but contrary to placings it's at least somewhat objectively measurable.

Dertie's performance strikes me as something that the peloton hasn't changed rather than the other way round.

As with Cadel's TT, this has been done in dirty and clean era's and in both era's more succesful... so it's not a reliable indicator.

I mean, he finished behind TV.. a SUPERcharged AC surely would do better?

I'm not saying he's clean (I wouldn't dare), but he's not running around with lava in his veins.

 

[Franklin]

It's amazing that it's done after 1) three weeks of hard racing, 2) attacking in the stages with the descents and the efforts in the Galibier stages, where only the Schleckette expended more energy than him, 3) finishing on par with the second best time trialist in the world, who based his entire season around the TDF and has been soft-pedalling since Luz Ardiden.

-> You might look into 1989.. Fignon and Lemond attacked in the MTF's, in the descent. Amazingly enough, they crushed everyone else in the TT. How does that work in your view?

And how do you feel about the fact that this has been done in almost every TdF before? The winner of the GT crushes his opponents in the TT. How about 1978, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98 (!), 99 (need I go on?)

What makes Cadel so special?

Seriously, it's not proof if this is what always happens. In fact, a TdF winner not winning the last GT is rare, not finishing top three is rarer.

Once again, are you really maintaining that Cadel was at his best in the Dauphine?

Are you seriously saying Hinault was using epo when he crushed Knetemann?

 

[Big Doopie]

cleaner. not clean, no way.

the riding, however, was the closest looking to pre-epo days, and that made it so much more exciting to watch.

i just hope it keeps moving in this direction.

 

[Franklin]

cleaner. not clean, no way.

the riding, however, was the closest looking to pre-epo days, and that made it so much more exciting to watch.

i just hope it keeps moving in this direction.

Possibly cleaner

Here's hoping.

 

[killswitch]

And how do you feel about the fact that this has been done in almost every TdF before? The winner of the GT crushes his oponents in the TT.

What makes Cadel so special?

Seriously, it's not proof if this is what always happens.

Once again, are you really maintaining that Cadel was at his best in the Dauphine?

Are you seriously saying Hinault was using epo when he crushed Knetemann?

He wasn't at his best, but didn't have accumulated fatigue from the previous stages. Also the Tony Martin argument, which you have missed. Tony really wanted a TDF stage win and prepared for it, after failing in his GT aspirations. Hinault in his prime crushed every TT, whether short, long, flat, hilly, prologues, etc. He won 5 Grand Prix des Nations (aka World ITT Championships).
I guess Cadel put it all on the line - it's win or nothing and charged a bit more than he should have done (being afraid to lose again). Won't be surprised if he gets caught like Landis. Though of the riders there he deserves the win the most.

edit: Cadel is below Fignon/Hinault/Lemond's level. Unless you are implying he is the only clean GT rider.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

OK. Now you are making no sense. You've moved the goal posts. You asked for people who had done the double - which as I understand it means winning the two of Vuelta, Giro, TDF in the same season. Which means the last person was Dertie 2008.

Your argument is making less sense than Sarah Palin trying to explain American history.

You've obviously got an agenda which makes the discussion a little bit redundant. You've decided that you are Jesus and that you know and that anyone else who disagrees with you is wrong. If they do produce anything that is a little bit inconvenient then you just shift the argument.

As I said at the start - there are arguments from thinking the tour is cleaner, there are caveats to that argument and there are arguments against the line the tour is cleaner. It's all about opinions because no one can prove the answer one way or another for about another 15 years, which is the normal length of time it takes to work out the real winner of a race.

Anyway, you keep on keeping on.

 

[Franklin]

He wasn't at his best, but didn't have accumulated fatigue from the previous stages. Also the Tony Martin argument, which you have missed. Tony really wanted a TDF stage win and prepared for it, after failing in his GT aspirations. Hinault in his prime crushed every TT, whether short, long, flat, hilly, prologues, etc. He won 5 Grand Prix des Nations (aka World ITT Championships).
I guess Cadel put it all on the line - it's win or nothing and charged a bit more than he should have done (being afraid to lose again). Won't be surprised if he gets caught like Landis. Though of the riders there he deserves the win the most.

Killswitch, I completely understand your reasoning, but the facts show that the winner of the TdF invariably wins the last ITT or finishes in the top 3.

What makes Cadel different than most GT winners before him? Answer this honest question.

How come Zoetemelk won his last GT?

How come Delgado rode a terrific last GT in 1988? Beating Breukink and Visentini?

How come Roche beat Indurain, Mottet and Breukink when he had to topple Delgado?

And sure we could also go to the chargers era, the story remains the same...

Seriously, the winner of the GT doing excellent in the last TT is normal.. you can not straightfaced deny this.

OK. Now you are making no sense. You've moved the goal posts. You asked for people who had done the double - which as I understand it means winning the two of Vuelta, Giro, TDF in the same season. Which means the last person was Dertie 2008.

If that's the measurement it becomes rather different. Consider this: All great champions tried and did it. The exception is Lance.

Your argument is making less sense than Sarah Palin trying to explain American history.

No. I point out recent and far history. You simply can't deny that the double has been done in a cleaner and a dirtier era because this is a simple fact.

You've obviously got an agenda which makes the discussion a little bit redundant.

becuase I show prior history that shows it has been done in a clean and in a dirty era I'm having an agenda? Sorry, you seriously think I have been posting all these years being paid by Cadel for just this occurence?

I'm fine if you think I'm a dolt, but an agenda... jeez man

You've decided that you are Jesus and that you know and that anyone else who disagrees with you is wrong. If they do produce anything that is a little bit inconvenient then you just shift the argument.

Nonsense, I simply show you facts. You can't deny that the double was done in every era so far.

It's the same as saying Cadel's IT performance is unheard of.

As I said at the start - there are arguments from thinking the tour is cleaner, there are caveats to that argument and there are arguments against the line the tour is cleaner. It's all about opinions because no one can prove the answer one way or another for about another 15 years, which is the normal length of time it takes to work out the real winner of a race.

But what does make a difference is that the numbers, the most objective thing, indicate it's cleaner. Whereupon the "it's as dirty as ever" hinges upon the placement of AC and the last IT of CE. But as I have shown (simple history fact) this is hardly conclusive.

So noone knows if it's cleaner or not, but the evidence it's at least somewhat cleaner are a lot stronger (measurable!).

Anyway, you keep on keeping on.

Considering we are judging and jurying other people, why shouldn't I point out the flaws in the prosecution?

 

[Bumeington]

I doubt it became cleaner in just one year. Contador for example rode Alpe Dhuez last year 5 seconds faster than Marco Pantani. In the Dauphiné obviously, but still.

It's just because Contador was lacking in form that people think it's cleaner now.

Err Contador and Brajkovic took 42 minutes in the Dauphine, try 5 minutes slower not 5 seconds faster

 

[killswitch]

Seriously, the winner of the GT doing excellent in the last TT is normal.. you can not straightfaced deny this.

Yes, but Cuddles' performance was unbelievable. At the end he looked like he had still a lot in the tank and would have beaten even Tony Martin, if Lelangue was telling him Tony's time checks. Also Cadel's TT has been deteriorating since 2007.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

No Franklin you are not pointing out weaknesses or anything else. Your own argumentation, comparison is so sloppy that it makes it pointless to bother to discuss it with you. If someone more sensible/coherent comes along with an argument that Dertie's performance isn't so out of whack then I'll be quite happy to listen to it, but at the moment my view is that it showed that its still the same old same old from the usual suspects.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Cleaner, or not, at least I enjoyed watching it.

After being too disgusted to follow the Boucle closely for most of a decade, it was nice to see some 'old-school' racing. Real racing. Not a f*cking train for 50km and half-way up a mountain.

Sure, a lot had to do with some of the top guns diving into the ditches, but so what? That happens to be part of bike racing. Keep the shiny side up...

I know enough to know that they're all doing something shady, but at least it's not as *** as it has been. At least it's a battle.

And as to the Schlecks - get some f*cking balls, ya Nancies! Christ! They (one of them) could've won this thing if they actually raced to win, rather than riding not to lose. Pussies...

 

[hfer07]

i'd say this:

is cleanER, compared to the recent past- but doping is there -only the methods & the drugs have evolved to meet the rules- as always

 

[Franklin]

Yes, but Cuddles' performance was unbelievable. At the end he looked like he had still a lot in the tank and would have beaten even Tony Martin, if Lelangue was telling him Tony's time checks. Also Cadel's TT has been deteriorating since 2007.

Once again, it's a sterling performance and if he's dirty I'd not be surprised at all. Yet the primary indicator: his wattage going uphill, is not of the scale. None of them tbh... hence it seems to be cleaner.

But his second spot here says nothing, it's actually to be expected. A betting man says the TdF winner finishes top three in the last TT... and no, coming over the finish with plenty left doesn't count for much either... the TT winner usually looks good.

 

[Franklin]

No Franklin you are not pointing out weaknesses or anything else. Your own argumentation, comparison is so sloppy that it makes it pointless to bother to discuss it with you.

The easy way out.

If someone more sensible/coherent comes along with an argument that Dertie's performance isn't so out of whack then I'll be quite happy to listen to it, but at the moment my view is that it showed that its still the same old same old from the usual suspects.

Indeed. Let me recap your stance.

Considering this has been done in the past (but better) and considering his wattage was about Greg's it's surely business as usual.

Clearly these points are not indicative of anything.

Indeed, AC becoming fifth in a severely thinned field is more indicative.

Oh my

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Unfortunately for you that isn't actually my view or what I've said.

I will have to assume that you've not understood my point rather than you willfully misrepresenting my argument.

Maybe the easy way out is to introduce specious arguments, cat-dog comparisons and misrepresenting someone else's views as a way to try to 'prove' an agenda.

 

[Walkman]

So, you mean to say that somehow the power numbers magically fell even though he was super charged?

Of course his numbers would have dropped during the Tour because of the Giro. Even SUPERCHARGED you'll still feel tired after such a hard GT as the Giro. He was hitting numbers that should indicate clean riding, when fully reasted and peaked, not when exhausted and poorly prepared. The guy is starting to look like Johan Mühlegg.

 

[Franklin]

Of course his numbers would have dropped during the Tour because of the Giro. Even SUPERCHARGED you'll still feel tired after such a hard GT as the Giro. He was hitting numbers that should indicate clean riding, when fully reasted and peaked, not when exhausted and poorly prepared. The guy is starting to look like Johan Mühlegg.

Let me see:

Greg had 5.9 watt per KG okay?

Laurent Fignon kept with him in 1989 while he had done a hard Giro.

Nowadays Contador does something similar (with similar times) and he's definitively charged? And really Id' say Fignon did a good deal better, but let's just keep this up for argument sake

Do you realize that this "indicator" has precedents in the pre-epo time? And no soft-pedalling anywhere.

I think Alberto matching numbers of Fignon and Greg is plausible.. he's a rather huge talent isn't he?

For all these years Greg has been the bar to which everyone is measured. But now that I do just that it's ridiculous?

Can we just say that it's impossible to please this crowd?

Unfortunately for you that isn't actually my view or what I've said.

I will have to assume that you've not understood my point rather than you willfully misrepresenting my argument.

Maybe the easy way out is to introduce specious arguments, cat-dog comparisons and misrepresenting someone else's views as a way to try to 'prove' an agenda.

Wait a minute.. let's look at your following paragraph:

The Tour is as dirty as ever

Dertie - while everyone else who rode the Giro ie RK is an hour+ or so back Dertie is less than 4 minutes down despite crashing, getting caught in a crash and a poorish Suxo TTT. Basically, Galibier was the only day when he lost a large amount of time and even then it was only with 1.5km to go, not at the foot of the climb. Contrast to the likes of Basso etc who went out early on.

This one I'm pointing out to be a fundamentally flawed indicator as it can be done clean. This is done by comparing wattages of a comparable situation of a rider who is undeniably clean.

Greg is always the yard stick. Alberto did actually worse as Fignon... how can that be proof of doping?