So Suddenly the Tour is clean. Where did this idea come from

[Libertine Seguros]

Interesting to hear that the Tour is clean now.

# of riders testing positive in the 2009 Tour: 0 (before you chide me, Astarloza tested positive in an OOC before the Spanish nationals)
# of riders testing positive in the 2011 Tour: 1 (Kolobnev).

 

[unsheath]

I don't agree that that Cadel is the first clean rider to win the TDF. Lets do the numbers
1/ Cadel in the past years has cracked on tough mountains. he has not held it with the pure climbers
2/ Cadel has not lasted more than 2 weeks on other TDF or Giro. His last week has seen an exhausted athlete.
3/ Cadel was right in front in the first week competing with the sprinters and in the last week hanging with the climbers including attacking and leading the chase.
4/ At 34 Cadel is able to recover in the way he couldn't in his 20's??

Everything points to juice. At 34, just say whatever and go for it, if they catch me I don't care, I won the tour and I can retire at 34.

I will overlook this one, better him than AS in yellow...but don't be back at 35...don't push it.

You've inadvertently proved the opposite point. Cadel previously couldnt hang with the pure climbers as they were consistently riding 2 mins faster on each ascent. Take the his Plateau la Beille ride in 2007 for example when he was tag teamed by Rasmussen and Contador. His level would have been very similar to this year. We just didnt have the ET performances this time round.

 

[ggusta]

Big Sporting events will always feature doped athletes......Its the world we live in.

There are far bigger moral problems out there than doping> The workers from Asia that built my bike were only paid 20 cents an hour! How is that fair? Is it fair that some smart kid is raised in a poor single parent family, heck no! Life isnt a box of chocolates, wake up and smell the coffee, have some!

Absolutely.
See: Fairy, Tooth
Any Major Contender or jersey points contender is on something as far as I am concerned.

The world cup soccer players are all doped, how come none of the football fans care about doping? Reason: Anti doping police would all be destroyed by the sheer amount of money involved in football.

Cycling is the poster sport for dirty sports. It's THE issue for cycling to deal with. Life ain't fair. The other sports are taken seriously despite their dirtiness, some of which are dirtier than cycling and cycling is NOT taken seriously like other sports, by and large. If cycling wants to be taken more seriously, it begins with the perceptions of those who think cycling is a joke.

Cycling does not have that..... Cycling cannon throw WADA chiefs into the sea with anchors tied around the ankles......

As long as the benefits outweigh the consequences.....What consequence is their to a little 400cc refill of your own blood? Right now none.....testosterone none.....ACTH hormone.......insulin......I'll be damned if anybody who's "a big deal" tests positive for those.

This is the issue that sends me over the edge, screaming, and running for the vapors. Guys with talents that could be the equal or even superior to Contador are told as juniors that if they want to move up, if they want the best coaches, the most attention, here's the way 'the game' is played, and as inconceivable as this may seem, some of them have morals, scruples, integrity, a soul, whatever and lo and behold, they say no and it more or less ends there for them. We're never going to see them in a GT or at the highest levels of racing. We are the ones who lose.
And everyone seems to be OK with that. It's just a cost of doing business. There are great athletes that just bypass cycling because of its lousy reputation. We lose. We are losing the perception battle.

 

[Mambo95]

If cycling hasn't been cleaning up as some as you suggest, then you'll have to admit that Armstrong must have been an awesome talent to be able to do L'Alpe d'Huez four minutes quicker than anyone this year (and after a longer stage too)

 

[BullsFan22]

If cycling hasn't been cleaning up as some as you suggest, then you'll have to admit that Armstrong must have been an awesome talent to be able to do L'Alpe d'Huez four minutes quicker than anyone this year (and after a longer stage too)[/QUOTEO

One could argue that both Armstrong and Ullrich are more talented than the top two guys in this tour, probably more than Contador even. Having said that, Armstrong and Ullrich were doping and they were on two teams that had the most money, sponsorship and organized doping schemes. Or, I could be completely and utterly wrong. Cadel, back when he raced both Ullrich, Armstrong and guys like Basso and Landis, had a hard time keeping up with them on the climbs because either a.) he was doping less than they were but was equally or more stronger/talented b.) he wasn't doping at all, so he was absolutely the most talented/strongest/honest racer and probably c.) they were all doping and doing it their way, just that Cadel, as he does now, didn't have a very good team, didn't have the tour experience, and/or wasn't as strong/talented.

Hope that made sense, if not...sorry! Personally, I believe the guys are riding more cleanly, and I sure love the kind of racing that we had this year than exactly ten years ago on Alpe D'Huez. I mean, 2011 was pretty similar to 2003, and even though though that tour had arguably the most dirty names in terms of doping ever assembled: Armstrong, Ullrich, Vino, Zubeldia, Mayo, Hamilton, Beloki, Basso, Mancebo, Laiseka, Sastre...I felt that 2003 it was fairly open, as Armstrong had issues, and the tour winner wasn't known until the end of the ITT (like this year).

Let's just hope that the riders were more clean, but let's not hope for miracles. It's probably a few years too early, but more likely, it might never happen. We'll see. Some of you mention the Schlecks. I am not too familiar with their training and their 'doctors' and 'helpers,' so I am not gonna comment too much on that. I will say that I like this sort of podium a lot. New faces, honest riding, hard work and guts (for the most part). I am glad the Gunderson era is well behind us now, and hopefully he gets what's coming to him, but that's another topic...

 

[BYOP88]

Interesting to hear that the Tour is clean now.

# of riders testing positive in the 2009 Tour: 0 (before you chide me, Astarloza tested positive in an OOC before the Spanish nationals)
# of riders testing positive in the 2011 Tour: 1 (Kolobnev).

Because Kolobnev didn't/wasn't going to finish in the top 10, therefore him failing a test doesn't count as a doping offence, therefore all of cycling is now clean, due to no one that matters failing a test. Mods you may wanna close the clinic.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

One could argue that both Armstrong and Ullrich are more talented than the top two guys in this tour, probably more than Contador even.

ROTFL. In a clean race environment Armstrong would never have placed in the TdF's top ten. Contador could still probably win it.

Every couple of years the powers that be insist on telling us that cycling has cleaned up. The current champions are exposed as dopers. There is a lull in the positive rate, and the cycle begins again.

 

[Basecase]

I think the fact that SRAM have become involved wit the sport has helped clean things up

with shimano and campag alot of old routine became the normal

this is different

 

[Mr. O'Clock]

I think the fact that SRAM have become involved wit the sport has helped clean things up

with shimano and campag alot of old routine became the normal

this is different

Since you brought this bit of trivia up, can you do a percentile comparison of convicted dopers with bicycle frames and components?

 

[function]

Pretty much have to say that voeckler, as in his dying throws punched out some major ugly strong Peddaling styles, reminiscent of roids testosterone?

Wow that's a new one!

 

[function]

The one doping feature of this Tour is how desperate some Clinic posters are to see signs of doping (Blackcat's Eugenics approach for example).

The most rabid posters here don't want a cleaner sport, that is there worst nightmare. They're only interested in maintaining their self-satisfied superior 'we don't believe in miracles' approach, even when those miracles are the same one's that were happening in the 80s.

Indeed, I think they're mostly interested in the gossip, kind of like tabloid rags.

 

[nesocip]

Cycling (or any other endurance sport) will never be totally clean. Never ever. Pharmaceutical industry is just too progressive for that, and there will always be new products used in the peloton 4-5-6 years before there are reliable testing methods for those products.

I think power data shows that it is much much cleaner then Armstrong days, and call me naive but i think Europcar's (and im not a fanboy, not even a fan) fantastic results this year are also a very good indicator.

However there are worrying indicators as well.

I am very suspect of OPL's (during the whole season not just the Tour) and BMC's performance as a whole. People strongly connected to those 2 teams got busted before the Tour, and their performance (especially OPL's) is way way beyond of what they should be capable of. I mean Jelle Vanendert, seriously? Unnamed veterinary products on Vansevenant? Things in life are usually much much more simple then some people see, or want to see them.

2 teams overperforming, same 2 teams involved in doping related police busts before the tour. 2+2=5. Nah, its 4 and always will be 4.

To put it like this, i think they had the "unfairest" advantage of all unfair advantages.

 

[SirLes]

I think there is some evidence that the tour is cleaner. By which I mean the effect of any doping is far less.

(not sure how one defines cleaner. Is is the number of riders taking illegal substances or the amount or frequency of illegal substances riders are taking or the effects of those illegal substances.I am going with the latter)

For doping to become clean or almost entirely clean there are two situations that need to occur. Both of which take time. Firstly the biological passport/ drugs testing methods need to be effective enough so that to beat them requires an enormous amount of money and organisation for little performance gain. Coupled with the risks of detection through other means- police investigations etc, the risks and costs outweigh the gains.

The second is harder and that is breaking the culture that doping is part and parcel of the job. This has been with the sport since it's inception and this will take longer.

I suspect that the top level may well be cleaner than lower down. What controls exist on those trying to make it to the top? They have most to gain, least to lose and, as far as I am aware, the least scrutiny.

 

[nighttrain]

The intensity of doping is likely less but still prevalent without doubt. Voekler thru the Pyrennes....yea, right. Evans never having a weak moment? Hushovd winning hilly stages as an animator? Sorry to be the cynic but I dove into cycling in 1992 and have never been surprised by moments of irrefutable clean racing. Like American NFL football, everyone knows the combatants are chemically altered but it's accepted as it adds to the spectacle. Allez, Cadel. Well done mate.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

This tour all of the GC contenders could be seen on screen with human levels of fatigue:

Contador could not dance away from the field as per usual.
Evans got dropped several times (nothing unusual) but fought back intelligently.
Andy failed big in the ITT probably due to mountain fatigue.

Even Tommy V. finally had a bad day.

No mountain team train had much influence.

This is very different from the insurance policy kind of racing for the days of the 7 times winner.

Feels clean or cleaner - a breath of fresh air at least.

 

[Dallas_]

plausible

I think this Tour was cleaner overall. However I'm not sure about cycling in general. Earlier in the season we had disturbing climbs to Huy, Arrate, Kapelmuur and Sierra Road. The Tour, however, has the means to fight against doping more efficiently, and the AFLD was involved. Could it be that dopers have to be more careful during the Tour, ironically making it one of the cleanest big races? That's a possibility.

So, to summarize, I think this Tour got clean enough that a very talented clean rider could compete, but there's still dark shadows overhead.

Not saying you are spot on the money, ... but to me, your post contains the most plausible logic.
.

 

[Franklin]

- so it resembled races in the 80's.
.

You have been reading my mind... I have to be careful not to be ecstatic, but it certainly looked like the eighties again: Isolated contenders, long attacks, spectacular boinks.

Heck, Evans really did a Hinault here: Win time in the mountains on almost everyone and kill the one-two exceptions in the TT.

I love it.

Let's hope it wasn't a fluke.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

Heck, Evans really did a Hinault here: Win time in the mountains on almost everyone and kill the one-two exceptions in the TT.

Evans is no Hinault. That is laughable. He is not even an Indurain.

 

[Roninho]

Ok, if the tour is indeed clean as some are suggesting then i'm wondering: why? Why is the tour clean? History has shown us that if cyclist can get an unfair advantage they will get it, so if the tour is clean they somehow cannot get away with dope anymore. What would be the reason for all dopers stopping with doping?

Yes the bio-passport kind of does the same thing as the 50% rule: it makes it impossible to get above certain levels, limiting dope-use (edit: dope-overabuse). But as far as i know it doesn't detect micro-dosing, undetectable dope use like hgh, etc. etc.

So when there still is room to dope, what has made all these cyclist stop doping? Except for Kolobnev off course.

 

[Franklin]

Evans is no Hinault. That is laughable. He is not even an Indurain.

Of course he isn't remotely close to Hinault

But the tactics were the same as the one used by Hinault in 81-82

 

[Frosty]

I think this Tour was cleaner overall. However I'm not sure about cycling in general. Earlier in the season we had disturbing climbs to Huy, Arrate, Kapelmuur and Sierra Road. The Tour, however, has the means to fight against doping more efficiently, and the AFLD was involved. Could it be that dopers have to be more careful during the Tour, ironically making it one of the cleanest big races? That's a possibility.

Yes, when Kohl talked about doping he suggested that you had to be careful at the tour as there were too many surprise controls.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kohl-tells-all-about-doping-1

Quite interesting reading that back - he talks about how he could beat the bio-passport yet Garmin seemed interested until the time they saw his bio-passport. Could be a coincidence, be interesting to know what his suspicion level was.

 

[Mister Crud]

Pretty much have to say that voeckler, as in his dying throws punched out some major ugly strong Peddaling styles, reminiscent of roids testosterone?

Hang on a minute...I ride like that when I go into the red. That's no proof of drug use!

 

[LukeSchmid]

Patrick Jonker in a radio interview today declared that it was IMPOSSIBLE to dope in the Tour and has been for 3-4 years, because the testing was too high tech to allow anyone to get away with it. He said that there is still an idiot or two that tried but they always get caught.
So according to Jonker we have absolutely nothing to worry about, Kolobnev gets the idiot of the year award, and everyone else is completely clean

Or perhaps Jonker is talking absolute ................

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

The media and Harmon always declare 'the tour now clean' it is something they have to repeat along with things like the fact that Wiggins is in with a real chance and Frodo is the greatest sprinter of all time.

Arguments for a cleaner tour:

Voeckler in Yellow finishing top 4
Cunego in top 10
Danielson top 10.
Poor performance from Petacchi in the sprints. ie he is riding like someone who is almost 40 should ride.
Frodo's hormones seem to be down a little bit.
Climbing/power numbers
No mountain trains.

Caveats

No Radioshack or Astana riders - rumours of Hog being scared and RS producing a performance akin to Disco 2006.

Astana getting blown out with loss of Vino, while RK knackered from Giro. Likewise, Sky lost Wiggins early on. JVDB crashing. A lot of major dopers crashing meant they weren't in the top 10

Key riders missing:

JVDB
Kloeden
Horner
Vino
RK
Menchov
Sastre
Nibs
Wacky
Wiggums
Ricco

In a normal tour we would expect most of those riders plus the riders currently involved to be prominent and to fill a top 10-15.

The point would be that a lot of the 'dirty' riders have for various reasons gone missing.

The Tour is as dirty as ever

HCT's performance
Gilbert/Vanendert performances
Evans - 195 doses of EPO hmmm - his performance contrasted with the DL.
Dertie - while everyone else who rode the Giro ie RK is an hour+ or so back Dertie is less than 4 minutes down despite crashing, getting caught in a crash and a poorish Suxo TTT. Basically, Galibier was the only day when he lost a large amount of time and even then it was only with 1.5km to go, not at the foot of the climb. Contrast to the likes of Basso etc who went out early on.
Schlecks performance.
Hoogerland
Hushovd in the mountains.

 

[mickkk]

They can only test for known substances and known blockers. You cant test for the unknown, the stuff being cooked up in labs in Spain and Israel and the The Netherlands to name a few.

The only thing that has changed is the attitude of the cyclists. The money involved now, just being a good rider on a team, its not worth the risk. Plus its no longer cool, a different generation of riders is at hand.

I am sure the deaths, busts and shame has also made a few think twice.

Now if you were to talk about club level, theres more EPO, Speed, Testosterone and HGH than you can poke a spoke at.

Remember the entire team that had to retire because they were crook, said to be the result of everyone getting a bad IV transfusion (when such things were legal), how times have changed.