So what should Joe have done?

[Mambo95]

Quite possibly the most baseless, ignorant thing I have read on the subject to date. And that was not an easy accomplishment for you.

Why is it baseless and ignorant - you haven't put forward a counter argument. What some people need to realise is that this man is not some sort of anti-doping crusader, he was a major part of the problem.

It's the hypocracy of some on here that gets to me. Some of you point fingers at any cyclist who does well with no evidence, but when a genuinely destructive influence in the sport speaks out to try an stay of jail, they treat him as some sort of messiah.

 

[Cobber]

Why is it baseless and ignorant - you haven't put forward a counter argument. What some people need to realise is that this man is not some sort of anti-doping crusader, he was a major part of the problem.

It's the hypocracy of some on here that gets to me. Some of you point fingers at any cyclist who does well with no evidence, but when a genuinely destructive influence in the sport speaks out to try an stay of jail, they treat him as some sort of messiah.

How is it hypocritical to want all of the drug cheats out of the sport. Nobody is treating Joe Papp like a messiah - we are all just grateful that he is naming names rather than propagating the Omerta that so many others contribute to. The sport of cycling is better when dopers are exposed, and Joe is contributing to that goal in a way than not many others can!

 

[Anonymous]

Why is it baseless and ignorant - you haven't put forward a counter argument. What some people need to realise is that this man is not some sort of anti-doping crusader, he was a major part of the problem.

It's the hypocracy of some on here that gets to me. Some of you point fingers at any cyclist who does well with no evidence, but when a genuinely destructive influence in the sport speaks out to try an stay of jail, they treat him as some sort of messiah.

The fact that it is baseless and ignorant precludes providing a counter argument, because your assertion is not based on logic, it is based on emotion. There is nothing that will come between a person armed with an opinion based on ignorance and his/her opinion. Look up cognitive dissonance. People are biased to think of their opinions as correct, regardless of any evidence they are based on faulty knowledge or logic.

 

[Mambo95]

The fact that it is baseless and ignorant precludes providing a counter argument, because your assertion is not based on logic, it is based on emotion. There is nothing that will come between a person armed with an opinion based on ignorance and his/her opinion. Look up cognitive dissonance. People are biased to think of their opinions as correct, regardless of any evidence they are based on faulty knowledge or logic.

So you are incapable of providing a counter argument. My argument is that a drug dealer should behave like a drug dealer and not name names. Take the criminal life, then live it.

You and others are viewing this from the point of view of decent men, which you are. But Papp is not.

I appreciate that some US cyclists will be busted. But I object to the idea that Papp is some sort of do-gooder, hoping to clean up cycling.

To put it simply - drug dealers are criminals and they buy into a criminal ethos alien to ours. Other criminals would expect him to STFU. We're not criminals so we don't see that.

 

[Rip:30]

So you are incapable of providing a counter argument. My argument is that a drug dealer should behave like a drug dealer and not name names. Take the criminal life, then live it.

You and others are viewing this from the point of view of decent men, which you are. But Papp is not.

I appreciate that some US cyclists will be busted. But I object to the idea that Papp is some sort of do-gooder, hoping to clean up cycling.

To put it simply - drug dealers are criminals and they buy into a criminal ethos alien to ours. Other criminals would expect him to STFU. We're not criminals so we don't see that.

This gets the weakest argument of the week award. Take the criminal life, then live it? Seriously?

 

[Anonymous]

So you are incapable of providing a counter argument. My argument is that a drug dealer should behave like a drug dealer and not name names. Take the criminal life, then live it.

You and others are viewing this from the point of view of decent men, which you are. But Papp is not.

I appreciate that some US cyclists will be busted. But I object to the idea that Papp is some sort of do-gooder, hoping to clean up cycling.

To put it simply - drug dealers are criminals and they buy into a criminal ethos alien to ours. Other criminals would expect him to STFU. We're not criminals so we don't see that.

Circumstance rather than virtue generally guides the conduct of a human being. When I see a man on a cloud of virtue (even one based on Tony Soprano) telling me what I should do based on his or her version of morality, I know I am dealing with a person who needs some introspection.

 

[Mambo95]

This gets the weakest argument of the week award. Take the criminal life, then live it? Seriously?

#

Yes, seriously. Find me one proper drug dealer (heroin, coke etc), who gave the authorities their client list. Just one. That's the code of the criminal and what your hero bought in to.

You don't see Papp as a common drug dealer, but I do.

(I've repeatedly said that the consequences of Papp's actions are a good thing).

 

[cyclelicious]

Confess, take his ban, and fully cooperate by providing names and evidence. Pretty much what he has been doing. My only complaint is that he could be a bit more judicious with his public statements, tweets, posts, etc.

a 'bit' more judicious???

yep, agree for the most part
TELL ALL, but stop the public grandstanding and intense self promotion. That's what sours me on anything worthwhile he has to say publicly. Everything Jo Papp does in the media and on-line is self-serving - imo. It doesn't take much reading of his words to figure that out.

 

[Anonymous]

the results of this poll form an excellent basis for an ignore list

 

[Mambo95]

the results of this poll form an excellent basis for an ignore list

Why? What is the right answer? I said he should have kept quiet for the reasons I have stated - because I view him as a scumbag criminal.

Yet I'm a Sky fan, I defend them. I like your website. So will you put me on ignore because I don't go believe that Papp is some sort of martyr like whistleblower?

 

[alanshearer]

#

Yes, seriously. Find me one proper drug dealer (heroin, coke etc), who gave the authorities their client list. Just one. That's the code of the criminal and what your hero bought in to.

You don't see Papp as a common drug dealer, but I do.

(I've repeatedly said that the consequences of Papp's actions are a good thing).

The code of a criminal? Once a criminal, you must stick with the code? What kind of b/s is this? Even assuming such a code exists, I would think only a criminal would care that it is followed.

And while there are case of "street" drug dealers naming their clients, it's not as common, simply because there is less law enforcement interest in prosecuting those users. Users of 'street" drugs are seen to some extent as victims, and their crimes arguably victimless. That's not the case with PED users, who are using the drugs to cheat in sport. And while society sees little benefit to locking up someone who's smoking pot, there is a greater benefit to the sport to weed out and sanction the cheaters. In other words, there's much more value to knowing Papp's clients than there is to knowing who is smoking pot.

After writing this, I'm somewhat ashamed that I even seriously engaged your "argument."

 

[Anonymous]

Why? What is the right answer? I said he should have kept quiet for the reasons I have stated - because I view him as a scumbag criminal.

Yet I'm a Sky fan, I defend them. I like your website. So will you put me on ignore because I don't go believe that Papp is some sort of martyr like whistleblower?

smile indicates humour. I block people for being boring and offensive, not for having opinions

 

[Mambo95]

The code of a criminal? Once a criminal, you must stick with the code? What kind of b/s is this? Even assuming such a code exists, I would think only a criminal would care that it is followed.

And while there are case of "street" drug dealers naming their clients, it's not as common, simply because there is less law enforcement interest in prosecuting those users. Users of 'street" drugs are seen to some extent as victims, and their crimes arguably victimless. That's not the case with PED users, who are using the drugs to cheat in sport. And while society sees little benefit to locking up someone who's smoking pot, there is a greater benefit to the sport to weed out and sanction the cheaters. In other words, there's much more value to knowing Papp's clients than there is to knowing who is smoking pot.

After writing this, I'm somewhat ashamed that I even seriously engaged your "argument."

I'll admit I'm being a bit extreme in my postings. But the fact remains that he has pleaded guilty to dealing drugs. He's a drug dealer and, in my opinion, should me treated by the values of a drug dealer, not those of an honest man.

I just get frustrated by posters on here who claim to want a clean sport, yet blow smoke up Papp's bum, just because he writes what they want to hear.

 

[Cobber]

I'll admit I'm being a bit extreme in my postings. But the fact remains that he has pleaded guilty to dealing drugs. He's a drug dealer and, in my opinion, should me treated by the values of a drug dealer, not those of an honest man.

I just get frustrated by posters on here who claim to want a clean sport, yet blow smoke up Papp's bum, just because he writes what they want to hear.

I just get frustrated by posters on here who claim to want a clean sport, yet get upset at someone who is trying to clean up the sport.

 

[cathulu]

Cry me a river! What about the christian value of contrition and redemption. A drug dealer that must remain with the values of a drug dealer is just ***.

 

[Berzin]

If you go into the criminal life, you should abide by criminal values, so I said name nobody. His clients were paying for his silence, not just his drugs.

They weren't paying for his silence, they were paying for PEDs to cheat clean athletes out of victories, prestige and prize money.

Why should they be protected? They are the ones who make this whole circle-jerk go 'round.

Here's a video for you, Mambo95-Street Ethics 101...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTKGO20nxNs&feature=related

 

[Race Radio]

#

Yes, seriously. Find me one proper drug dealer (heroin, coke etc), who gave the authorities their client list. Just one. That's the code of the criminal and what your hero bought in to.

Ever seen the movie "American Gangster"? It is about Frank Lucas. Frank was the largest Heroin dealer on the east coast. When he was busted he provided evidence that led to more than 100 further drug-related convictions. Family, Friends, customers, suppliers. They left that part out of the movie.

You have been watching too many movies. Most smart crooks work out a deal as fast as they can. The slower guys end up in jail hoping they don't drop the soap.

 

[theswordsman]

Sorry if this is already being discussed, but I refuse to go into the other Joe Papp threads again. One of the riders at US Pros was on the list, and has been charged. He can still compete for now. I have no idea who it is, but do some people here really believe that this unnamed rider should have a shot at wearing a national championship jersey for the next year?Sorry if this distracts from the poll discussion.

An American rider at the U.S. professional championships in Greenville, South Carolina, this weekend has been charged with a non-analytical doping violation, VeloNews has learned.
....................................................................................
The rider is being charged with possessing doping products in 2007, sources said
.....................................................................................
The non-analytical violation stems from dealings with former rider Joe Papp, who in February pleaded guilty in a Pennsylvania federal court to conspiracy to distribute performance enhancing drugs, including human growth hormone and recombinant erythropoietin, that he had imported from the Chinese Shandong Kexing Bioproducts company.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010...ionships-charged-with-doping-violation_141266

 

[smaryka]

a 'bit' more judicious???

yep, agree for the most part
TELL ALL, but stop the public grandstanding and intense self promotion. That's what sours me on anything worthwhile he has to say publicly. Everything Jo Papp does in the media and on-line is self-serving - imo. It doesn't take much reading of his words to figure that out.

+1

There should be an option 5 in the poll:
Taken his ban, named names and STFU about it otherwise in public.

And why is the USADA allowing Papp to be their mouthpiece in announcing new doping charges and cases?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/papp-confirms-additional-doping-investigations-underway

 

[Rip:30]

#

Yes, seriously. Find me one proper drug dealer (heroin, coke etc), who gave the authorities their client list. Just one. That's the code of the criminal and what your hero bought in to.

You don't see Papp as a common drug dealer, but I do.

(I've repeatedly said that the consequences of Papp's actions are a good thing).

This isn't the movies, people don't make decisions based on some criminal code of honor that supports some secret society. Get with it man, dealers sell out all time to save their *** (law's after the dealer's dealer though, not the end user b/c there's no PE in the use of heroin or coke by most). It's the oldest law enforcement trick in the book. There's no client-dealer confidentiality laws to protect drug buyers. Don't be ridiculous.

 

[slowoldman]

So let me get this straight, there are 11 folks here that say Joe should have named either nobody involved or protected his "clients" (I actually prefer the word cheaters), yet they argue that Joe is scum or worse and should go away because he doped and sold dope to those who were actively seeking it. Somehow in their warped logic, the fellow cheaters aside from Joe (yes, I add Joe to that group) should get off scott free because it is the honorable thing to not name your "client/cheater". Someone help me because I just don't understand the logic here.

 

[cathulu]

The reason is that we see evidence of moral corruption extending all the way through society, reflected in this poll.

 

[craig1985]

I don't understand Mambo's logic, if you were in Joe's shoes and have the chance to do less time or even get a lower security prison, what would you do?

 

[Benotti69]

My logic is - if you become a criminal, then do it properly and live the criminal code. The first law of the criminal world is 'don't grass'.

Now, you and I are not criminals, so the natural thing to say is sing like a canary. But Papp hasn't taken that road.

so what you want is criminals to abide by their unwritten laws and behaviour which they don't even abide by all the time, which totally contravene decent and society's moral laws and codes.. these criminal cost the tax payer huge amounts of money in trying to apprehend and break their criminal rings, but let's not ask them to assist the police in trying to make good on some of the bad they have done?

next you'll be advocating to let pro cyclists sort it out amongst themselves, let Farrar put Cavendish into the barriers if he tests positive and if it ends his career let Renshaw dump Farrar of a decent, where and when would that stop...GET REAL!!!!

 

[Benotti69]

I don't understand Mambo's logic, if you were in Joe's shoes and have the chance to do less time or even get a lower security prison, what would you do?

try and get the USADA some good dope and Novitsky the best stuff and party