So who will sing?

[MacRoadie]

How much communication do feel is being staged among the past USPS riders at this time. Would phone taps or body mic's be too over the top on something like this??

Keep in mind, IM's, SMS text messages, and emails are resident on service provider servers and can be subpoenaed.

 

[Barrus]

it goes beyond just talking by a collaborator or a witness.

there could be an electronic record from the past or a current tape from a legitimate substantive source not excluding a federally authorized one.

if these fellas decide to lie they better not listen to scribe.

And thus making the prisones dillema an even harder dillema for some. Making the option of speaking out ever more likely

 

[MacRoadie]

assuming the bus-transfusion event occured, it isn't out of the realm of possibility for someone like hincapie to say that he has done over 15 tours, comprising of over 300 race schedule days. And that not only doesn't he recall that happening, but that he has never doped, and has been tested multiple times without a positive as proof.

"Well Mr. Hincapie, 300 days on the bus certainly is a lot, and I can appreciate the routine of one day running into another.

Would you not agree, however, taken in conjunction with your strong anti-doping stance, that it seems odd that something as profoundly against your character as a number of your team mates all receiving concurrent illegal transfusions on that same bus does not stand out in your memory?

Or is it that these episodes of mass-transfusions were, in fact, so routine, that they tended not to register as significant events in you recollection?"

 

[scribe]

"Well Mr. Hincapie, 300 days on the bus certainly is a lot, and I can appreciate the routine of one day running into another.

Would you not agree, however, taken in conjunction with your strong anti-doping stance, that it seems odd that something as profoundly against your character as a number of your team mates all receiving concurrent illegal transfusions on that same bus does not stand out in your memory?

Or is it that these episodes of mass-transfusions were, in fact, so routine, that they tended not to register as significant events in you recollection?"

"Well, there were instances that we might not have all traveled on the same bus. So I cannot be certain as to what the other guys might be referring to. Sorry, I do not recall witnessing anyone else using prohibited materials, and I did not use any myself"

 

[scribe]

yeah but if people know others are lier's who can they trust to keep the lie going and are the 'team' all gonna sing from the same hymn sheet?

Most will be going in not knowing what was allegedly said by the others, so big risk to take to tell lies to a grand jury and have that on your CV for the rest of your life. Is it worth the risk, when the rider's can plead that is all they were, rider's following orders...

It's a lose-lose(maybe) for some guys, not so much for others.

The Zabriskie's can actually make gains by speaking truthfully. I think JV has set the stage for clean whistling riders to have work in cycling past their competitive years.

A Hincapie has everything to lose. Because this will blow him down a notch of respectability. He tells the truth, his product line is toast and his future in cycling management is toast. He lies, he potentially goes to jail, and all that stuff is toast anyhow. Unless he can get away with the denials that have gotten thru to date.

 

[Benotti69]

"Well, there were instances that we might not have all traveled on the same bus. So I cannot be certain as to what the other guys might be referring to. Sorry, I do not recall witnessing anyone else using prohibited materials, and I did not use any myself"

Scribe can you get yourself over to GHs and give him a hand he might need it and as you seem to be have all his bases covered, he sure would appreciate it

 

[scribe]

Scribe can you get yourself over to GHs and give him a hand he might need it and as you seem to be have all his bases covered, he sure would appreciate it

All I am saying is that it is one thing to lie, and another thing to get convicted of perjury. It is interesting in that there are varying degrees of problems to each of these guys testifying. Hincapie is probably one of the more compelling situations.

 

[MacRoadie]

All I am saying is that it is one thing to lie, and another thing to get convicted of perjury. It is interesting in that there are varying degrees of problems to each of these guys testifying. Hincapie is probably one of the more compelling situations.

And all I'm saying is that it's very difficult to lie effectively. Maybe about a singular event, but when you attempt to create a "web" of lies to cover a series of events or pattern of behavior it gets very difficult to create the backup, the "lies behind the lies" if you will.

Using your last example, a good examiner might latch on to the suggestion that they "might not have all traveled on the same bus". That begs the questions:

How long have you been a pro?
How long have you been at the top, or ProTour level?
In all those years, how often were you on teams that utilized more than one bus at a race?
Did USPS ever have more than one bus at a race?
How often did you ride on a separate bus from the rest of your team mates?

It's the little things that get you. Reality has minutiae and nuances and texture and details. For a lie to be successful, it has to have all those lements too, just like reality. You make one little mistake, or go off on a tangent (or are deliberately led down one) that you hadn't previously contemplated, and you're screwed.

 

[scribe]

And all I'm saying is that it's very difficult to lie effectively. Maybe about a singular event, but when you attempt to create a "web" of lies to cover a series of events or pattern of behavior it gets very difficult to create the backup, the "lies behind the lies" if you will.

Using your last example, a good examiner might latch on to the suggestion that they "might not have all traveled on the same bus". That begs the questions:

How long have you been a pro?
How long have you been at the top, or ProTour level?
In all those years, how often were you on teams that utilized more than one bus at a race?
Did USPS ever have more than one bus at a race?
How often did you ride on a separate bus from the rest of your team mates?

It's the little things that get you. Reality has minutiae and nuances and texture and details. For a lie to be successful, it has to have all those lements too, just like reality. You make one little mistake, or go off on a tangent (or are deliberately led down one) that you hadn't previously contemplated, and you're screwed.

All these guys are gonna make mistakes. Try to remember what you were doing any one of the past 10 to 20 years. You forget things, get turned around and twisted on the facts and details. It can get frightening even if you are the one who is singing. This is gonna be very interesting to say the least, and should go a long way to clean up cycling; at least in the US.

 

[NashbarShorts]

Hincapie has everything to lose. He tells the truth, his product line is toast and his future in cycling management is toast.

Riiight, 'cause no one who confesses doping ever works on the management side again. That's why guys like:

Riis
Aldag
Zabel
Vaughters

are all out of the sport. ?

He tells the truth, bike shop owners aren't going to care. They'll leave his stuff on the racks and see if it sells. It's pretty nice stuff from what I've seen, so it will sell. Joe Weekend Warrior isn't going to care. Only reason Hincapie would lie would be a) payoff from Lance, or b) wants to keep the legend of his Tour mountain stage win alive

 

[Boeing]

Nice summary!

Popo
Livingston
Heras
Beltran
Ekimov
Basso
Cruz
Azevedo
Berry
Danielson
Andreu
Savoldelli
Boonen
Burrow
Dean
Clinger
Hesjedal
ROulsetn
McCarty
White

 

[oldschoolnik]

It's a lose-lose(maybe) for some guys, not so much for others. He tells the truth, his product line is toast and his future in cycling management is toast. .

I disagree and as one of the decision makers for an annual purchase of Hincapie team kits of anywhere from $8,000-12,000 for the last 5 years I can tell you Hincapie admitting doping or testifying would not even be on our radar - Hincapie supplies many teams in the NYC area and all of the managers have suspected/ known for years about Lance, postal etc... What I don't know is what percentage of Hincapie's revenues come from custom team kits but I know they have massive market share in the East.

That said, it may not be in his personality to "name names" and I do think his case is the most interesting since on the surface he has managed to leave Lance's team and keep good relations with him...

In my opinion it will come down to his lawyers advice on the risk of saying he "doesn't remember" or "didn't see anything" vs. any wrath or guilt he will feel...

 

[NashbarShorts]

Popo
Livingston
Heras
Beltran
Ekimov
Basso
Cruz
Azevedo
Berry
Danielson
Andreu
Savoldelli
Boonen
Burrow
Dean
Clinger
Hesjedal
ROulsetn
McCarty
White

Is this a list of LA's former teammates who've been caught or admitted? If so, when did Danielson/Hesjedal/Livingstone ever confess?

Also, shouldn't Benoit Joachim be on the list? Belgian roleur/dopeur

 

[Boeing]

Is this a list of LA's former teammates who've been caught or admitted? If so, when did Danielson/Hesjedal/Livingstone ever confess?

Also, shouldn't Benoit Joachim be on the list? Belgian roleur/dopeur

just a list of former teammates à proximité de l'autobus Postal/Discovery, occasionnellement


sans doute:Joachim, Paulinho. Lowe


à tout moment

 

[FrankDrack]

It's a lose-lose(maybe) for some guys, not so much for others.

The Zabriskie's can actually make gains by speaking truthfully. I think JV has set the stage for clean whistling riders to have work in cycling past their competitive years.

A Hincapie has everything to lose. Because this will blow him down a notch of respectability. He tells the truth, his product line is toast and his future in cycling management is toast. He lies, he potentially goes to jail, and all that stuff is toast anyhow. Unless he can get away with the denials that have gotten thru to date.

I agree that someone like GH has a lot to lose, and FL has already lost it all.

I believe that TD is extremely interesting. He never met expectations, seems to still have some goodwill in the cycling community, and seems to have less than fond memories of his time at Postal.

If he knows something how does he play his card?

 

[Race Radio]

I don't think GH is gonna talk. He might go down with the ship

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Don't forget about Pla d'Adet, the cycling community training resort he was attempting to get large amounts of seed capital for in South Carolina. That project is on hold because of the real estate collapse, but it's still a very sound concept.

I still say if he mostly cooperates now, he'd potentially dodge a bullet. The comparison I see is Andy Pettit. He confessed to steroids and HGH, people frowned, but he seemed sincere, people forgave him, and he was back playing baseball.

But there's also indication that he's George is loyal to Lance, or thinks this won't affect him, and will try to play as Scribe says about "I don't remember", "I didn't see that". "That's not how I remember it". This would be a tricky line to walk, and if he's caught in contraction or ends up perjuring himself, he could come out looking like a liar or fool, have a lot of baggage to carry around, and it could take him years to recover from it.

I know what path I'd take, but I'm not exactly sure what path George will choose.

 

[tubularglue]

There are those that look good in orange