Soudal - Quick Step Thread

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re:

Bit of a weird joke if everyone isn't in on it.

Let's not start about what is the definition of a joke. A good joke can often be offensive at the same time as well. The fact that this wasn't funny, doesn't mean he didn't mean is as a joke. It would be a much better world if everytime when somebody tried to be funny, it was actually funny. The problem here isn't that it wasn't funny, but that it was disrespectful and sexist. I can only hope the intent was different than the result.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

Bit of a weird joke if everyone isn't in on it.

Let's not start about what is the definition of a joke. A good joke can often be offensive at the same time as well. The fact that this wasn't funny, doesn't mean he didn't mean is as a joke. It would be a much better world if everytime when somebody tried to be funny, it was actually funny. The problem here isn't that it wasn't funny, but that it was disrespectful and sexist. I can only hope the intent was different than the result.

I very much agree with this.

What he did was very immature. I do hope that his intent was truly a joke, however it was a very poor idea of a joke.

Getting your picture taken with someone or a group really should not be that complicated. It really is a fairly straightforward thing.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

Bit of a weird joke if everyone isn't in on it.

Let's not start about what is the definition of a joke. A good joke can often be offensive at the same time as well. The fact that this wasn't funny, doesn't mean he didn't mean is as a joke. It would be a much better world if everytime when somebody tried to be funny, it was actually funny. The problem here isn't that it wasn't funny, but that it was disrespectful and sexist. I can only hope the intent was different than the result.

Sure, he meant it as a joke. Well, if I use the age-old trick of placing a bucket of water above a door, I'd also do it* as a joke, however, if it turns out that the victim has a very important meeting coming up, and therefore no time to change, the joke falls flat.

*Well, I wouldn't, coz that trick is getting old. Just as old as, you know, what Keisse did.

BTW, let me just point out that I know he meant it as a joke. I. Don't. Care!
He's 36. He really ought to know better. And I think one of the reasons I'm so disappointed by this is because he always seemed like a respectful guy, someone who was, well, mature. If it had been a guy who perhaps already had a bit of a reputation for stuff like that, I probably wouldn't have been so angry about it.

 

[Jagartrott]

People do stupid things they regret afterwards. He was wrong, he knows it, but I don't think a poor snap decision makes him a sexist pig. Now, if you repeatedly do such things, then you probably *are* a sexist pig. The mediatisation and inflation of indignity is a bit much - I don't like it.

 

[RedheadDane]

You're absolutely right. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

I may have jumped to conclusions when I read her statement. Keisse's story also makes sense, so I have no clue as to what really went down. He could be telling the truth, in which case it's not even THAT bad. Stupid and incredibly sexist, of course, but not sexual assault. The difference between the two is huge, so I hope this gets cleared up fast, one way or the other. If he pressed up against her he's lucky that he didn't catch a beat-down.

Lefevere apparenty considers / considered (?) withdrawing the whole team from the race today:

https://www.hln.be/sport/wielrennen/patrick-lefevere-reageert-bijzonder-boos-na-uitsluiting-van-iljo-keisse-als-het-van-mij-afhangt-stapt-de-ploeg-collectief-uit-de-ronde-van-san-juan~ade23d92/?referer=https%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2Fxx85fcqWOB

 

[Valanga]

Re:

I may have jumped to conclusions when I read her statement. Keisse's story also makes sense, so I have no clue as to what really went down. He could be telling the truth, in which case it's not even THAT bad. Stupid and incredibly sexist, of course, but not sexual assault. The difference between the two is huge, so I hope this gets cleared up fast, one way or the other. If he pressed up against her he's lucky that he didn't catch a beat-down.

Lefevere apparenty considers / considered (?) withdrawing the whole team from the race today:

https://www.hln.be/sport/wielrennen/patrick-lefevere-reageert-bijzonder-boos-na-uitsluiting-van-iljo-keisse-als-het-van-mij-afhangt-stapt-de-ploeg-collectief-uit-de-ronde-van-san-juan~ade23d92/?referer=https%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2Fxx85fcqWOB

Well Lefevere has always been a bit of drama queen. Of course they will start.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Re: Re:

Well Lefevere has always been a bit of drama queen. Of course they will start.

LOL, yeah. This was probably the last time the team was invited to the race, though.

 

[Flamin]

Since it's not clear if Keisse "bumped" her or not, taking him out of the race is a bit over the top imo. He tried to show off in front of his mates and did so in the wrong way. Since he's not known at all for this kind of behaviour, I think it's fair to qualify this as a stupid and tasteless act, nothing more. The media attention and that his wife and kids will see the picture, is a big enough punishment I think.

Well Lefevere has always been a bit of drama queen. Of course they will start.

LOL, yeah. This was probably the last time the team was invited to the race, though.

Or the last time Lefevre sends a team

 

[Davesta]

Re:

Since it's not clear if Keisse "bumped" her or not, taking him out of the race is a bit over the top imo. He tried to show off in front of his mates and did so in the wrong way. Since he's not known at all for this kind of behaviour, I think it's fair to qualify this as a stupid and tasteless act, nothing more. The media attention and that his wife and kids will see the picture, is a big enough punishment I think.

Well Lefevere has always been a bit of drama queen. Of course they will start.

LOL, yeah. This was probably the last time the team was invited to the race, though.

Or the last time Lefevre sends a team

Showing off in front of your mates is great and all, but what Keisse did was at best Sexual Objectification (the act of treating a person as a mere object of sexual desire); probably closer to sexual harassment (bullying or coercion of a sexual nature); and at worst sexual assault (an act in which a person intentionally sexually touches another person without that person's consent).

It doesn't matter if Keisse meant it as a joke - the intention is completely irrelevant.
There's a victim here, as the police have agreed to, and that victim isn't Keisse.
I've got absolutely no problem with him being kicked out of the race.

 

[Flamin]

Re: Re:

Since it's not clear if Keisse "bumped" her or not, taking him out of the race is a bit over the top imo. He tried to show off in front of his mates and did so in the wrong way. Since he's not known at all for this kind of behaviour, I think it's fair to qualify this as a stupid and tasteless act, nothing more. The media attention and that his wife and kids will see the picture, is a big enough punishment I think.

Well Lefevere has always been a bit of drama queen. Of course they will start.

LOL, yeah. This was probably the last time the team was invited to the race, though.

Or the last time Lefevre sends a team

Showing off in front of your mates is great and all, but what Keisse did was at best Sexual Objectification (the act of treating a person as a mere object of sexual desire); probably closer to sexual harassment (bullying or coercion of a sexual nature); and at worst sexual assault (an act in which a person intentionally sexually touches another person without that person's consent).

It doesn't matter if Keisse meant it as a joke - the intention is completely irrelevant.
There's a victim here, as the police have agreed to, and that victim isn't Keisse.
I've got absolutely no problem with him being kicked out of the race.

Of course intention is very relevant.

 

[pastronef]

from @jukkar twitter

 

[Davesta]

Re: Re:

Since it's not clear if Keisse "bumped" her or not, taking him out of the race is a bit over the top imo. He tried to show off in front of his mates and did so in the wrong way. Since he's not known at all for this kind of behaviour, I think it's fair to qualify this as a stupid and tasteless act, nothing more. The media attention and that his wife and kids will see the picture, is a big enough punishment I think.

Well Lefevere has always been a bit of drama queen. Of course they will start.

LOL, yeah. This was probably the last time the team was invited to the race, though.

Or the last time Lefevre sends a team

Showing off in front of your mates is great and all, but what Keisse did was at best Sexual Objectification (the act of treating a person as a mere object of sexual desire); probably closer to sexual harassment (bullying or coercion of a sexual nature); and at worst sexual assault (an act in which a person intentionally sexually touches another person without that person's consent).

It doesn't matter if Keisse meant it as a joke - the intention is completely irrelevant.
There's a victim here, as the police have agreed to, and that victim isn't Keisse.
I've got absolutely no problem with him being kicked out of the race.

Of course intention is very relevant.

Not in the legal definition & applicaiton of Sexual Harassment law in the UK. And clearly the Argentinian police work along similar lines...

 

[Jagartrott]

If intent does not matter, and equates malign intent to acting dumb/stupid, than it degrades the seriousness of the former. I don't think that's very helpful.

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

I may have jumped to conclusions when I read her statement. Keisse's story also makes sense, so I have no clue as to what really went down. He could be telling the truth, in which case it's not even THAT bad. Stupid and incredibly sexist, of course, but not sexual assault. The difference between the two is huge, so I hope this gets cleared up fast, one way or the other. If he pressed up against her he's lucky that he didn't catch a beat-down.

Lefevere apparenty considers / considered (?) withdrawing the whole team from the race today:

https://www.hln.be/sport/wielrennen/patrick-lefevere-reageert-bijzonder-boos-na-uitsluiting-van-iljo-keisse-als-het-van-mij-afhangt-stapt-de-ploeg-collectief-uit-de-ronde-van-san-juan~ade23d92/?referer=https%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2Fxx85fcqWOB

Well Lefevere has always been a bit of drama queen. Of course they will start.

Lefevere is a ***, decision of expelling him from the race is 100% right! The joke was not a joke, he crossed the line, and the punishment is adequate.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re: Re:

It doesn't matter if Keisse meant it as a joke - the intention is completely irrelevant.
There's a victim here, as the police have agreed to, and that victim isn't Keisse.
I've got absolutely no problem with him being kicked out of the race.

Of course intention is very relevant.

Not in the legal definition & applicaiton of Sexual Harassment law in the UK. And clearly the Argentinian police work along similar lines...

I think you'll find intent usually makes a world of difference. Like, between murder and manslaughter. Just to give you one example.

Maybe you should go to a nightclub once in a while, trying to get to the bar, from the toilet, you'll be rubbing your junk agains a dozen people. If intent doesn't matter, i'll just open up a lawfirm and set up shop right outside my local nightclub.

 

[Davesta]

Re: Re:

It doesn't matter if Keisse meant it as a joke - the intention is completely irrelevant.
There's a victim here, as the police have agreed to, and that victim isn't Keisse.
I've got absolutely no problem with him being kicked out of the race.

Of course intention is very relevant.

Not in the legal definition & applicaiton of Sexual Harassment law in the UK. And clearly the Argentinian police work along similar lines...

I think you'll find intent usually makes a world of difference. Like, between murder and manslaughter. Just to give you one example.

Maybe you should go to a nightclub once in a while, trying to get to the bar, from the toilet, you'll be rubbing your junk agains a dozen people. If intent doesn't matter, i'll just open up a lawfirm and set up shop right outside my local nightclub.

Intent makes a difference in homicide. Not necessarily in sexual harassment law inthe UK - "A person (A) harasses another (B) if the conduct has the purpose or effect of— (i)violating B's dignity, or (ii)creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for B."
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/26

Note that it is based on the reaction and response of the victim (the "effect"), regardless of the intention of the perpetrator. If that reaction and response is considered 'reasonable' - that is, where an independent party would think that the victim's response is the same as any other 'ordinary person's' - the act is considered harassment.

So in Keisse's case, if the waitress felt that Keisse's act violated her dignity or created a humiliating or offensive environment, then an act of harassment has taken place, regardless of his intention, and it is very likely that her response would be considered 'reasonable', especially given the clear photographic evidence or witness report.

In your nightclub example, a response of accusing sexual harassment wouldn't likely be considered reasonable simply due to there being many people crowded into a small space (of course there may be actions that somebody could take within that small, crowded space that would indeed constitute harassment).

 

[Vroome.exe]

I don't see how Keisse deserved all of this. He didn't even touch that woman, she probably saw the photo and decided it's a good way to get some money. So Keisse gets a fine, expelled from the race and a shame for life just because he made a joke by lifting one hand for a second. A simple apology should be enough. Now he's more humiliated than that woman.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

I don't see how Keisse deserved all of this. He didn't even touch that woman, she probably saw the photo and decided it's a good way to get some money. So Keisse gets a fine, expelled from the race and a shame for life just because he made a joke by lifting one hand for a second. A simple apology should be enough. Now he's more humiliated than that woman.

Good, that's the least he deserves.

 

[Bye Bye Bicycle]

By the way this is not the first incident involving this team: https://www.velonews.com/2016/02/news/qatar-organizers_394824

And yes, there is exactly one rider from the current San Juan squad that also took part in the 2015 Tour of Qatar...

 

[Koronin]

IMO what he did is not sexual assault, however I do see it as sexual harassment. Was that his intent, no, however that is what it is as his act was. I just hope this is a wake up call and that this will prevent other men (riders) from doing something stupid like this in the future.
As for whether he is a sexist pig or not, only time will tell, as I'm not aware of other issues with him. However this act was sexist. Those who aren't sexist can make mistakes or make comments or do things that are sexist. There is still a long way to go.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re:

IMO what he did is not sexual assault, however I do see it as sexual harassment. Was that his intent, no, however that is what it is as his act was. I just hope this is a wake up call and that this will prevent other men (riders) from doing something stupid like this in the future.
As for whether he is a sexist pig or not, only time will tell, as I'm not aware of other issues with him. However this act was sexist. Those who aren't sexist can make mistakes or make comments or do things that are sexist. There is still a long way to go.

It's a shame that Keisse and Quickstep didn't respond by making a visit to a women support group and make a donation to the cause. That would have been a much better outcome for all parties involved.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

IMO what he did is not sexual assault, however I do see it as sexual harassment. Was that his intent, no, however that is what it is as his act was. I just hope this is a wake up call and that this will prevent other men (riders) from doing something stupid like this in the future.
As for whether he is a sexist pig or not, only time will tell, as I'm not aware of other issues with him. However this act was sexist. Those who aren't sexist can make mistakes or make comments or do things that are sexist. There is still a long way to go.

It's a shame that Keisse and Quickstep didn't respond by making a visit to a women support group and make a donation to the cause. That would have been a much better outcome for all parties involved.

Now there is actually a great idea.

 

[jaylew]

Their response instead was to boycott the podium ceremony.

 

[GenericBoonenFan]

Re:

Their response instead was to boycott the podium ceremony.

Rightly so.