Soudal - Quick Step Thread

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

IMO what he did is not sexual assault, however I do see it as sexual harassment. Was that his intent, no, however that is what it is as his act was. I just hope this is a wake up call and that this will prevent other men (riders) from doing something stupid like this in the future.
As for whether he is a sexist pig or not, only time will tell, as I'm not aware of other issues with him. However this act was sexist. Those who aren't sexist can make mistakes or make comments or do things that are sexist. There is still a long way to go.

It's a shame that Keisse and Quickstep didn't respond by making a visit to a women support group and make a donation to the cause. That would have been a much better outcome for all parties involved.

Now there is actually a great idea.

The best part would be if they already did, but quietly, without making a big "look at how sorry we are!" show about it.
Also, Keisse not so much damaged the reputation of the race, as he damaged the reputation of Deceuninck-Quickstep...

 

[Sestriere]

They even invented a story about how their riders didn't feel good (after finishing 3rd on the stage before or taking big pulls in the last kilometer). They're surely losing a lot of credit now.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re:

Their response instead was to boycott the podium ceremony.

To me, this is a streak of one bad decission after another:

Keisse's 'joke': bad decision and poor tast (/joke)
Woman's need to run to the media: poor decision
police fining 3000 pesos: laughable decision
Quickstep not adequately reacting to the events (see my previous post): bad decision
Vuelta a San Jan kicking Keisse out for something that happened outside the race and has been closed by authorities: bad decision and bad precedent
Quickstep not showing up: another bad decision

 

[GenericBoonenFan]

Re: Re:

Their response instead was to boycott the podium ceremony.

To me, this is a streak of one bad decission after another:

Keisse's 'joke': bad decision and poor tast (/joke)
Woman's need to run to the media: poor decision
police fining 3000 pesos: laughable decision
Quickstep not adequately reacting to the events (see my previous post): bad decision
Vuelta a San Jan kicking Keisse out for something that happened outside the race and has been closed by authorities: bad decision and bad precedent
Quickstep not showing up: another bad decision

This sums it up quiet nicely. If I could give this a thumb's up, I would!

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

IMO what he did is not sexual assault, however I do see it as sexual harassment. Was that his intent, no, however that is what it is as his act was. I just hope this is a wake up call and that this will prevent other men (riders) from doing something stupid like this in the future.
As for whether he is a sexist pig or not, only time will tell, as I'm not aware of other issues with him. However this act was sexist. Those who aren't sexist can make mistakes or make comments or do things that are sexist. There is still a long way to go.

It's a shame that Keisse and Quickstep didn't respond by making a visit to a women support group and make a donation to the cause. That would have been a much better outcome for all parties involved.

Now there is actually a great idea.

The best part would be if they already did, but quietly, without making a big "look at how sorry we are!" show about it.
Also, Keisse not so much damaged the reputation of the race, as he damaged the reputation of Deceuninck-Quickstep...

True. It would be nice to find out eventually they did something that way.

True that he damaged his own and the team's reputation a lot more than race's.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

Their response instead was to boycott the podium ceremony.

To me, this is a streak of one bad decission after another:

Keisse's 'joke': bad decision and poor tast (/joke)
Woman's need to run to the media: poor decision
police fining 3000 pesos: laughable decision
Quickstep not adequately reacting to the events (see my previous post): bad decision
Vuelta a San Jan kicking Keisse out for something that happened outside the race and has been closed by authorities: bad decision and bad precedent
Quickstep not showing up: another bad decision

This sums it up quiet nicely. If I could give this a thumb's up, I would!

Agreed, great summary of bad decision after bad decision.

 

[RedheadDane]

And now it seems to have descended into a "getting the last word" battle...

 

[GenericBoonenFan]

Re:

And now it seems to have descended into a "getting the last word" battle...

I'm not letting you win

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

And now it seems to have descended into a "getting the last word" battle...

I'm not letting you win

Oh, so that's how you wanna play?






(Are we spamming?)

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Lefevere is a PR disaster. Lets his ego get in the way of an easy decision. Should have sent Keisse "home", *especially* when urged to do so, issued a short (inoffensive) media statement ...and continued the race with the rest of the team. "No comment" everything else.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Pretty sure the podium boycott was also Pat's idea... This all just seems very petty.

 

[Jagartrott]

Who the hell is PR manager for this team? Man, this is basic stuff. You cannot win this. A rider f***d up, make amends, don't try to fight such a thing, and definitely don't drag your other riders into this. Gods, this is stupid.

 

[jaylew]

Re: Re:

Their response instead was to boycott the podium ceremony.

To me, this is a streak of one bad decission after another:

Keisse's 'joke': bad decision and poor tast (/joke)
Woman's need to run to the media: poor decision
police fining 3000 pesos: laughable decision
Quickstep not adequately reacting to the events (see my previous post): bad decision
Vuelta a San Jan kicking Keisse out for something that happened outside the race and has been closed by authorities: bad decision and bad precedent
Quickstep not showing up: another bad decision

This sums it up quiet nicely. If I could give this a thumb's up, I would!

So you agree with those being bad decisions?

 

[jaylew]

Re:

Who the hell is PR manager for this team? Man, this is basic stuff. You cannot win this. A rider f***d up, make amends, don't try to fight such a thing, and definitely don't drag your other riders into this. Gods, this is stupid.

*like*

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re:

Lefevere is a PR disaster. Lets his ego get in the way of an easy decision. Should have sent Keisse "home", *especially* when urged to do so, issued a short (inoffensive) media statement ...and continued the race with the rest of the team. "No comment" everything else.

No, they should not have sent Keisse home. Why on earth should they have done that? It doesn't help anybody least of all the victim (i think she'd want something else). Either you are offended by his actions, and in that case you need a gesture or punishment that actually has any relevance, or you don't. If you want him sent home for this, which happened outside the race, then you can send any rider home, who's ever been pulled over for drunk driving, for domestic violence, a history of petty crime, for drug abuse (non clinic), for doping, for jaywalking... There should be a clear line between a race incident, and whatever goes on outside of the race. The UCI rule, i feel, is a joke. Because if an organization has to refer to those rules in order to pull a rider out, that means they really don't have any legal leg to stand on (as in this case), and it also means, the party that will suffer from a bad image first and foremost, will be the team and its sponsors. This is the equivalent of a modern day witchhunt. Either you rely on the justice system 's due process, or you are left with wonky precedents, with different types of punishments for the same crime (Sagan wasn't forced out of any race) and based on social hysteria.

No, they (QuickStep) should not have sent hime home. They should have (like i said earlier) committed to supporting the cause of gender equality, make a donation to a women's support organization, have Keisse visit a clinic with victims of sexual abuse. It would have been a much better outcome for both the rider, the sponsors, the race, and definitely, the woman/women. And every time he was picked up by the camera during the race, the commentators would refer to the incident. Now, he's gone and the case is closed. The woman got her 15 minutes of fame, and maybe the 80 bucks.

 

[sommarkatt]

Re:

A simple apology should be enough. Now he's more humiliated than that woman.

As he should. Because that's the point of a punishing someone for breaking the law.

 

[RedheadDane]

^Unless, of course, the women of said clinic would feel a bit apprehensive about being around a guy seen engaging in such behaviour...

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re:

^Unless, of course, the women of said clinic would feel a bit apprehensive about being around a guy seen engaging in such behaviour...

I'm pretty sure, women that have been actual victims of sexual assault, can make the distinction between an actual rapist and a guy that is trying to repend for making a sexist joke. But even so, there would be nothing preventing him to talk to the doctors, psychiatrists and nurses at such an institute, that could tell him what they are going through, even if the women themselves don't want to be around an offender like him.

 

[PeterB]

Re: Re:

...The woman got her 15 minutes of fame, and maybe the 80 bucks.

You sound like you think the poor waitress spoke about it for the money or to become famous. What if she did it simply because she felt it was the right thing to do?

 

[Koronin]

Re:

^Unless, of course, the women of said clinic would feel a bit apprehensive about being around a guy seen engaging in such behaviour...

Although what he did was more sexual harassment than actual assault. Unfortunately almost all women have been the victims of sexual harassment. Now granted there are degrees of sexual harassment as well and this wasn't the worst, by far. The worst are the ones intentionally doing it.

 

[jaylew]

Re: Re:

Lefevere is a PR disaster. Lets his ego get in the way of an easy decision. Should have sent Keisse "home", *especially* when urged to do so, issued a short (inoffensive) media statement ...and continued the race with the rest of the team. "No comment" everything else.

No, they should not have sent Keisse home. Why on earth should they have done that? It doesn't help anybody least of all the victim (i think she'd want something else). Either you are offended by his actions, and in that case you need a gesture or punishment that actually has any relevance, or you don't. If you want him sent home for this, which happened outside the race, then you can send any rider home, who's ever been pulled over for drunk driving, for domestic violence, a history of petty crime, for drug abuse (non clinic), for doping, for jaywalking... There should be a clear line between a race incident, and whatever goes on outside of the race. The UCI rule, i feel, is a joke. Because if an organization has to refer to those rules in order to pull a rider out, that means they really don't have any legal leg to stand on (as in this case), and it also means, the party that will suffer from a bad image first and foremost, will be the team and its sponsors. This is the equivalent of a modern day witchhunt. Either you rely on the justice system 's due process, or you are left with wonky precedents, with different types of punishments for the same crime (Sagan wasn't forced out of any race) and based on social hysteria.

No, they (QuickStep) should not have sent hime home. They should have (like i said earlier) committed to supporting the cause of gender equality, make a donation to a women's support organization, have Keisse visit a clinic with victims of sexual abuse. It would have been a much better outcome for both the rider, the sponsors, the race, and definitely, the woman/women. And every time he was picked up by the camera during the race, the commentators would refer to the incident. Now, he's gone and the case is closed. The woman got her 15 minutes of fame, and maybe the 80 bucks.

Can't speak for everywhere but this happens fairly regularly in team sports in the US. Guys are always getting suspended for conduct detrimental to the team for things they do outside of sport.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

Lefevere is a PR disaster. Lets his ego get in the way of an easy decision. Should have sent Keisse "home", *especially* when urged to do so, issued a short (inoffensive) media statement ...and continued the race with the rest of the team. "No comment" everything else.

No, they should not have sent Keisse home. Why on earth should they have done that? It doesn't help anybody least of all the victim (i think she'd want something else). Either you are offended by his actions, and in that case you need a gesture or punishment that actually has any relevance, or you don't. If you want him sent home for this, which happened outside the race, then you can send any rider home, who's ever been pulled over for drunk driving, for domestic violence, a history of petty crime, for drug abuse (non clinic), for doping, for jaywalking... There should be a clear line between a race incident, and whatever goes on outside of the race. The UCI rule, i feel, is a joke. Because if an organization has to refer to those rules in order to pull a rider out, that means they really don't have any legal leg to stand on (as in this case), and it also means, the party that will suffer from a bad image first and foremost, will be the team and its sponsors. This is the equivalent of a modern day witchhunt. Either you rely on the justice system 's due process, or you are left with wonky precedents, with different types of punishments for the same crime (Sagan wasn't forced out of any race) and based on social hysteria.

No, they (QuickStep) should not have sent hime home. They should have (like i said earlier) committed to supporting the cause of gender equality, make a donation to a women's support organization, have Keisse visit a clinic with victims of sexual abuse. It would have been a much better outcome for both the rider, the sponsors, the race, and definitely, the woman/women. And every time he was picked up by the camera during the race, the commentators would refer to the incident. Now, he's gone and the case is closed. The woman got her 15 minutes of fame, and maybe the 80 bucks.

Can't speak for everywhere but this happens fairly regularly in team sports in the US. Guys are always getting suspended for conduct detrimental to the team for things they do outside of sport.

Yep, the NFL is really good for this one. Major League Baseball can keep you out of their Hall of Fame for even more reasons. They have some sort of code of conduct to even be eligible to be on the voting list for it.

 

[lartiste]

Re:

I don't see how Keisse deserved all of this. He didn't even touch that woman, she probably saw the photo and decided it's a good way to get some money. So Keisse gets a fine, expelled from the race and a shame for life just because he made a joke by lifting one hand for a second. A simple apology should be enough. Now he's more humiliated than that woman.

I second that. Next we should ban all jokes since every joke is offensive to someone.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re: Re:

Lefevere is a PR disaster. Lets his ego get in the way of an easy decision. Should have sent Keisse "home", *especially* when urged to do so, issued a short (inoffensive) media statement ...and continued the race with the rest of the team. "No comment" everything else.

No, they should not have sent Keisse home. Why on earth should they have done that? It doesn't help anybody least of all the victim (i think she'd want something else). Either you are offended by his actions, and in that case you need a gesture or punishment that actually has any relevance, or you don't. If you want him sent home for this, which happened outside the race, then you can send any rider home, who's ever been pulled over for drunk driving, for domestic violence, a history of petty crime, for drug abuse (non clinic), for doping, for jaywalking... There should be a clear line between a race incident, and whatever goes on outside of the race. The UCI rule, i feel, is a joke. Because if an organization has to refer to those rules in order to pull a rider out, that means they really don't have any legal leg to stand on (as in this case), and it also means, the party that will suffer from a bad image first and foremost, will be the team and its sponsors. This is the equivalent of a modern day witchhunt. Either you rely on the justice system 's due process, or you are left with wonky precedents, with different types of punishments for the same crime (Sagan wasn't forced out of any race) and based on social hysteria.

No, they (QuickStep) should not have sent hime home. They should have (like i said earlier) committed to supporting the cause of gender equality, make a donation to a women's support organization, have Keisse visit a clinic with victims of sexual abuse. It would have been a much better outcome for both the rider, the sponsors, the race, and definitely, the woman/women. And every time he was picked up by the camera during the race, the commentators would refer to the incident. Now, he's gone and the case is closed. The woman got her 15 minutes of fame, and maybe the 80 bucks.

Can't speak for everywhere but this happens fairly regularly in team sports in the US. Guys are always getting suspended for conduct detrimental to the team for things they do outside of sport.

Yes, by their own team most likely. Because, like i said earlier, the first to suffer actual image damage, would be the team and the sponsors of the team. Not by the organization. If the team or the sponsors would punish him, this would be a different issue. In this case, he isn't being sanctioned by his team, but by the organizer of the event.

To me, there's a big difference. It's like, when you go to the store with your kid, and your kid steals something. Either the cops come by, or you discipline your kid yourself. That's fine. What wouldn't be fine is when the store owner smacks your kid. We can all see the difference there, i hope. And it's even worse, because to make the comparison, the kid wouldn't even have stolen from the store, but outside of the store on the street from someone else.

I just don't think a race organizer should pass judgement on issues outside of the race. That's either up to the team or the cops, or, at worst, the UCI.

 

[lartiste]

Re: Re:

^Unless, of course, the women of said clinic would feel a bit apprehensive about being around a guy seen engaging in such behaviour...

Although what he did was more sexual harassment than actual assault. Unfortunately almost all women have been the victims of sexual harassment. Now granted there are degrees of sexual harassment as well and this wasn't the worst, by far. The worst are the ones intentionally doing it.

The first problem is what actually constitute sexual harassment. In Europe the understanding would be in my experience very different than in US. But, OK, even according to wikipedia "Sexual harassment is bullying or coercion of a sexual nature".

Was it coercion? Coercion to do what? Was it bullying, bullying about which she did not know? It makes no sense, stupid joke yes, sexual harassment no. Assault, may be try to understand what constitute assault. Assault is something very different part of which is without any doubt oral or physical attack with sufficient intensity.

Second is that even the women behaved strangely she poke her but to cyclist, do not understand what she was actually doing.

Usually I am enjoying your comments but reading this discussion, it only supports european point of view on people from US - you will die out, because it will be to legally risky to make any contact with woman.