Soudal - Quick Step Thread

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

^Unless, of course, the women of said clinic would feel a bit apprehensive about being around a guy seen engaging in such behaviour...

Although what he did was more sexual harassment than actual assault. Unfortunately almost all women have been the victims of sexual harassment. Now granted there are degrees of sexual harassment as well and this wasn't the worst, by far. The worst are the ones intentionally doing it.

The first problem is what actually constitute sexual harassment. In Europe the understanding would be in my experience very different than in US. But, OK, even according to wikipedia "Sexual harassment is bullying or coercion of a sexual nature".

Was it coercion? Coercion to do what? Was it bullying, bullying about which she did not know? It makes no sense, stupid joke yes, sexual harassment no. Assault, may be try to understand what constitute assault. Assault is something very different part of which is without any doubt oral or physical attack with sufficient intensity.

Second is that even the women behaved strangely she poke her but to cyclist, do not understand what she was actually doing.

Usually I am enjoying your comments but reading this discussion, it only supports european point of view on people from US - you will die out, because it will be to legally risky to make any contact with woman.

Anyone who thinks that should probably just keep away from women for good to be honest.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

^Unless, of course, the women of said clinic would feel a bit apprehensive about being around a guy seen engaging in such behaviour...

Although what he did was more sexual harassment than actual assault. Unfortunately almost all women have been the victims of sexual harassment. Now granted there are degrees of sexual harassment as well and this wasn't the worst, by far. The worst are the ones intentionally doing it.

The first problem is what actually constitute sexual harassment. In Europe the understanding would be in my experience very different than in US. But, OK, even according to wikipedia "Sexual harassment is bullying or coercion of a sexual nature".

Was it coercion? Coercion to do what? Was it bullying, bullying about which she did not know? It makes no sense, stupid joke yes, sexual harassment no. Assault, may be try to understand what constitute assault. Assault is something very different part of which is without any doubt oral or physical attack with sufficient intensity.

Second is that even the women behaved strangely she poke her but to cyclist, do not understand what she was actually doing.

Usually I am enjoying your comments but reading this discussion, it only supports european point of view on people from US - you will die out, because it will be to legally risky to make any contact with woman.

This very well may be a cultural difference. There are plenty of ways to interact with members of the opposite sex without having any issues at all. What he was doing was not one of those. The biggest reason sexual harassment is because he's objectifying her by his actions even if that was not his intent.

 

[Flamin]

https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20190131_04141529

Lefevre says the team looked into it to quit the race altogether. It could have cost them between 100.000 and 150.000 euros according to UCI rules, hence doing so was off the table.

He also says what Keisse did was very stupid, but doesn't agree with expelling him.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re:

https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20190131_04141529

Lefevre says the team looked into it to quit the race altogether. It could have cost them between 100.000 and 150.000 euros according to UCI rules, hence doing so was off the table.

He also says what Keisse did was very stupid, but doesn't agree with expelling him.

Trying to be funny in such a manner, was stupid. Véry stupid. I'm not trivializing it either. I told Iljo that he's a huge idiot. But taking him out of the race, eventhough the police had closed the case, is out of proportion.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

^Unless, of course, the women of said clinic would feel a bit apprehensive about being around a guy seen engaging in such behaviour...

Although what he did was more sexual harassment than actual assault. Unfortunately almost all women have been the victims of sexual harassment. Now granted there are degrees of sexual harassment as well and this wasn't the worst, by far. The worst are the ones intentionally doing it.

The first problem is what actually constitute sexual harassment. In Europe the understanding would be in my experience very different than in US. But, OK, even according to wikipedia "Sexual harassment is bullying or coercion of a sexual nature".

Was it coercion? Coercion to do what? Was it bullying, bullying about which she did not know? It makes no sense, stupid joke yes, sexual harassment no. Assault, may be try to understand what constitute assault. Assault is something very different part of which is without any doubt oral or physical attack with sufficient intensity.

Second is that even the women behaved strangely she poke her but to cyclist, do not understand what she was actually doing.

Usually I am enjoying your comments but reading this discussion, it only supports european point of view on people from US - you will die out, because it will be to legally risky to make any contact with woman.

Just ask. That's not illegal.
Btw, was that comment aimed at me, or Koronin? Coz we're on different sides of the pond, and judging by her(?) reply further down it looks like we agree.

 

[glassmoon]

Re: Re:

^Unless, of course, the women of said clinic would feel a bit apprehensive about being around a guy seen engaging in such behaviour...

Although what he did was more sexual harassment than actual assault. Unfortunately almost all women have been the victims of sexual harassment. Now granted there are degrees of sexual harassment as well and this wasn't the worst, by far. The worst are the ones intentionally doing it.

The first problem is what actually constitute sexual harassment. In Europe the understanding would be in my experience very different than in US. But, OK, even according to wikipedia "Sexual harassment is bullying or coercion of a sexual nature".

Was it coercion? Coercion to do what? Was it bullying, bullying about which she did not know? It makes no sense, stupid joke yes, sexual harassment no. Assault, may be try to understand what constitute assault. Assault is something very different part of which is without any doubt oral or physical attack with sufficient intensity.

Second is that even the women behaved strangely she poke her but to cyclist, do not understand what she was actually doing.

Usually I am enjoying your comments but reading this discussion, it only supports european point of view on people from US - you will die out, because it will be to legally risky to make any contact with woman.

Just ask. That's not illegal.
Btw, was that comment aimed at me, or Koronin? Coz we're on different sides of the pond, and judging by her(?) reply further down it looks like we agree.

girls taking a photo - gravity intensifies suddenly

 

[myrideissteelerthanyours]

She was obviously a big fan and they treated her badly that's sad.

 

[jmdirt]

Sorry to jump in without reading the thread (time limit), but Pati had trouble pulling money together to keep his team rolling for 2019 and this type of response will make it more difficult next time. Can you image if the title sponsor and Specialized both move on? Who is going to want to take their place (that also has the required $$).

 

[Vroome.exe]

Re:

She was obviously a big fan and they treated her badly that's sad.

She didn't even know who they are.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re:

Sorry to jump in without reading the thread (time limit), but Pati had trouble pulling money together to keep his team rolling for 2019 and this type of response will make it more difficult next time. Can you image if the title sponsor and Specialized both move on? Who is going to want to take their place (that also has the required $$).

He had trouble finding a big sponsor, because he wanted a Belgian sponsor and Belgium is a small country. And i doubt a sponsor will move on because a rider, who is likely to quit in one or two years, made a stupid mistake / sexist joke. I can't remember which team Sagan was riding for when he grabbed that girls ass, but i can't remember the sponsor quitting because of that. Can't remember him getting suspended by his team either. But hey, double standards for the win!

She was obviously a big fan and they treated her badly that's sad.

She was such a big fan, she didn't know who they were, she didn't even know what the Vuelta a San Juan was.
Huge fan. Huge.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

Their response instead was to boycott the podium ceremony.

Rightly so.

If they really wanted to take a stand they would've pulled out of the race completely. Just a bunch of hot air being spouted with no intent to back up the threat. Now that their sponsors have stated their displeasure with the bad publicity in their name, the team management have painted themselves into a corner.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

^Unless, of course, the women of said clinic would feel a bit apprehensive about being around a guy seen engaging in such behaviour...

Although what he did was more sexual harassment than actual assault. Unfortunately almost all women have been the victims of sexual harassment. Now granted there are degrees of sexual harassment as well and this wasn't the worst, by far. The worst are the ones intentionally doing it.

The first problem is what actually constitute sexual harassment. In Europe the understanding would be in my experience very different than in US. But, OK, even according to wikipedia "Sexual harassment is bullying or coercion of a sexual nature".

Was it coercion? Coercion to do what? Was it bullying, bullying about which she did not know? It makes no sense, stupid joke yes, sexual harassment no. Assault, may be try to understand what constitute assault. Assault is something very different part of which is without any doubt oral or physical attack with sufficient intensity.

Second is that even the women behaved strangely she poke her but to cyclist, do not understand what she was actually doing.

Usually I am enjoying your comments but reading this discussion, it only supports european point of view on people from US - you will die out, because it will be to legally risky to make any contact with woman.

Just ask. That's not illegal.
Btw, was that comment aimed at me, or Koronin? Coz we're on different sides of the pond, and judging by her(?) reply further down it looks like we agree.

Yes I'm a she. I'd would say we agree.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

I don't see how Keisse deserved all of this. He didn't even touch that woman, she probably saw the photo and decided it's a good way to get some money. So Keisse gets a fine, expelled from the race and a shame for life just because he made a joke by lifting one hand for a second. A simple apology should be enough. Now he's more humiliated than that woman.

I second that. Next we should ban all jokes since every joke is offensive to someone.

The two of you are in a time warp. A woman asks the team to take a picture with her and in the process has to put up with one: having one of them "allegedly" touching her in an improper way AND two: strikes a pose that is plain to anyone that sees it as him pretending to have sex with her. This is not what this woman should expect to be the result of innocently posing for a picture . The race organizers are within their rights to want this rider removed from their event as this incident has left a scar on their relationship with the surrounding community. Why would they want this rider to continue riding their event while this woman has to put up with the humiliation of being reminded of this encounter? Also she stated that initially she thought the contact was accidental until she saw the photo and realized that it was intentional.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

^Unless, of course, the women of said clinic would feel a bit apprehensive about being around a guy seen engaging in such behaviour...

Although what he did was more sexual harassment than actual assault. Unfortunately almost all women have been the victims of sexual harassment. Now granted there are degrees of sexual harassment as well and this wasn't the worst, by far. The worst are the ones intentionally doing it.

The first problem is what actually constitute sexual harassment. In Europe the understanding would be in my experience very different than in US. But, OK, even according to wikipedia "Sexual harassment is bullying or coercion of a sexual nature".

Was it coercion? Coercion to do what? Was it bullying, bullying about which she did not know? It makes no sense, stupid joke yes, sexual harassment no. Assault, may be try to understand what constitute assault. Assault is something very different part of which is without any doubt oral or physical attack with sufficient intensity.

Second is that even the women behaved strangely she poke her but to cyclist, do not understand what she was actually doing.

Usually I am enjoying your comments but reading this discussion, it only supports european point of view on people from US - you will die out, because it will be to legally risky to make any contact with woman.

Keisse is quoted in one of the many cn report/articles on this, as saying that she was ducking down to fit into the photo. She wasn't "poking her butt" offering it for any wanting to take it. Keisse obviously saw this as an opportunity, one that he will regret for a little while.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

Lefevere is a PR disaster. Lets his ego get in the way of an easy decision. Should have sent Keisse "home", *especially* when urged to do so, issued a short (inoffensive) media statement ...and continued the race with the rest of the team. "No comment" everything else.

No, they should not have sent Keisse home. Why on earth should they have done that? It doesn't help anybody least of all the victim (i think she'd want something else). Either you are offended by his actions, and in that case you need a gesture or punishment that actually has any relevance, or you don't. If you want him sent home for this, which happened outside the race, then you can send any rider home, who's ever been pulled over for drunk driving, for domestic violence, a history of petty crime, for drug abuse (non clinic), for doping, for jaywalking... There should be a clear line between a race incident, and whatever goes on outside of the race. The UCI rule, i feel, is a joke. Because if an organization has to refer to those rules in order to pull a rider out, that means they really don't have any legal leg to stand on (as in this case), and it also means, the party that will suffer from a bad image first and foremost, will be the team and its sponsors. This is the equivalent of a modern day witchhunt. Either you rely on the justice system 's due process, or you are left with wonky precedents, with different types of punishments for the same crime (Sagan wasn't forced out of any race) and based on social hysteria.

No, they (QuickStep) should not have sent hime home. They should have (like i said earlier) committed to supporting the cause of gender equality, make a donation to a women's support organization, have Keisse visit a clinic with victims of sexual abuse. It would have been a much better outcome for both the rider, the sponsors, the race, and definitely, the woman/women. And every time he was picked up by the camera during the race, the commentators would refer to the incident. Now, he's gone and the case is closed. The woman got her 15 minutes of fame, and maybe the 80 bucks.

Can't speak for everywhere but this happens fairly regularly in team sports in the US. Guys are always getting suspended for conduct detrimental to the team for things they do outside of sport.

Yes, by their own team most likely. Because, like i said earlier, the first to suffer actual image damage, would be the team and the sponsors of the team. Not by the organization. If the team or the sponsors would punish him, this would be a different issue. In this case, he isn't being sanctioned by his team, but by the organizer of the event.

To me, there's a big difference. It's like, when you go to the store with your kid, and your kid steals something. Either the cops come by, or you discipline your kid yourself. That's fine. What wouldn't be fine is when the store owner smacks your kid. We can all see the difference there, i hope. And it's even worse, because to make the comparison, the kid wouldn't even have stolen from the store, but outside of the store on the street from someone else.

I just don't think a race organizer should pass judgement on issues outside of the race. That's either up to the team or the cops, or, at worst, the UCI.

It's their race. They can choose who can and cannot participate. They can toss someone from the event if that someone has done something to negatively effect their event be it during the actual racing or outside of it, especially if it occurs within the communities that they are running their through.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

Sorry to jump in without reading the thread (time limit), but Pati had trouble pulling money together to keep his team rolling for 2019 and this type of response will make it more difficult next time. Can you image if the title sponsor and Specialized both move on? Who is going to want to take their place (that also has the required $$).

He had trouble finding a big sponsor, because he wanted a Belgian sponsor and Belgium is a small country. And i doubt a sponsor will move on because a rider, who is likely to quit in one or two years, made a stupid mistake / sexist joke. I can't remember which team Sagan was riding for when he grabbed that girls ***, but i can't remember the sponsor quitting because of that. Can't remember him getting suspended by his team either. But hey, double standards for the win!

She was obviously a big fan and they treated her badly that's sad.

She was such a big fan, she didn't know who they were, she didn't even know what the Vuelta a San Juan was.
Huge fan. Huge.

I clearly typed that Pati's response might chase sponsors away. PS's boss had a more appropriate response so that's not a good argument. But hey, comprehension much?

So since she wasn't a fan its OK to treat her that way?!

FYI: his team was Cannondale, and that was six years ago (not that it was ever OK, but its more frowned upon today than then).

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re: Re:

It's their race. They can choose who can and cannot participate. They can toss someone from the event if that someone has done something to negatively effect their event be it during the actual racing or outside of it, especially if it occurs within the communities that they are running their through.

I'm don't know all the rules, but clearly it's not as straight forward. As i recall the TDF tried to keep Froome out, tried to keep Boonen out... It is also not what i was saying. I said i do not like it (and should not be possible imo), not that it is the case. It leads to random decisions, one organizer will not take action against Sagan for groping a girl, another one will kick Keisse out for a sexist picture pose. What will the next organizer deem offensive? It's random and trivial since there are no clear regulations. "When the organizer feels the image of the race is damaged"... this is open to so much interpretation, it's ***. In this case, the police was handling the situation, but the woman went to the media, and social media got involved and pressured the organization to take action, for something that happened outside the race, was not even within the period the race was being held. This is a form of justice i can not agree with. It's as simple as that.

So since she wasn't a fan its OK to treat her that way?!

Like you said, you didn't read the thread and just jumped in. Maybe you should do that first. I can't remember saying that made it ok to treat her like that. I simply stated that she wasn't a fan, unlike he said.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

It's their race. They can choose who can and cannot participate. They can toss someone from the event if that someone has done something to negatively effect their event be it during the actual racing or outside of it, especially if it occurs within the communities that they are running their through.

I'm don't know all the rules, but clearly it's not as straight forward. As i recall the TDF tried to keep Froome out, tried to keep Boonen out... It is also not what i was saying. I said i do not like it (and should not be possible imo), not that it is the case. It leads to random decisions, one organizer will not take action against Sagan for groping a girl, another one will kick Keisse out for a sexist picture pose. What will the next organizer deem offensive? It's random and trivial since there are no clear regulations. "When the organizer feels the image of the race is damaged"... this is open to so much interpretation, it's ***. In this case, the police was handling the situation, but the woman went to the media, and social media got involved and pressured the organization to take action, for something that happened outside the race, was not even within the period the race was being held. This is a form of justice i can not agree with. It's as simple as that.

It was a bit hard to kick him out of a race that had already finished.
Besides, as has been mentioned multiple times; the mentality towards these things have changed in the intervening six years - and rightfully so. If it had happened today it's entirely possible that the organiser (Flanders Classic, right?) would have told him that "You know what? We don't want to see you at any of our races!"

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re: Re:

It was a bit hard to kick him out of a race that had already finished.
Besides, as has been mentioned multiple times; the mentality towards these things have changed in the intervening six years - and rightfully so. If it had happened today it's entirely possible that the organiser (Flanders Classic, right?) would have told him that "You know what? We don't want to see you at any of our races!"

Was it the last race of his life? I don't think so. Sagan did it after one race was over, and before another race would start. So he could have been denied the next race. Keisse 's mistake was also after one race, and before another. Not during the race. And i'm long past debating whether or not sexual /gender humiliation/offense by Keisse is worse or not than that of Sagan, or that he deserves a punishment or not. My issue is that a race organizer should not be able to deny riders based on such random and vague terms "when the image is at stake". This can be interpreted in a 100 different ways by a 100 different people. And it opens the door for social pressure groups to influence the proceedings, which is a far cry from "justice", regardless of police investigations and judicial due process.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

It was a bit hard to kick him out of a race that had already finished.
Besides, as has been mentioned multiple times; the mentality towards these things have changed in the intervening six years - and rightfully so. If it had happened today it's entirely possible that the organiser (Flanders Classic, right?) would have told him that "You know what? We don't want to see you at any of our races!"

Was it the last race of his life? I don't think so. Sagan did it after one race was over, and before another race would start. So he could have been denied the next race. Keisse 's mistake was also after one race, and before another. Not during the race. And i'm long past debating whether or not sexual /gender humiliation/offense by Keisse is worse or not than that of Sagan, or that he deserves a punishment or not. My issue is that a race organizer should not be able to deny riders based on such random and vague terms "when the image is at stake". This can be interpreted in a 100 different ways by a 100 different people. And it opens the door for social pressure groups to influence the proceedings, which is a far cry from "justice", regardless of police investigations and judicial due process.

Like I said; the organisers could have kicked Sagan (or any other rider) out of all their races if it had happened today.
And you just said it yourself:
Sagan made his mistake after one race was over and the next started, so he could have been denied start in the next race (or next race by that organiser).
Keisse made his mistake after one race was over (in this case said race being the Tour of Turkey…) and the next started, that race being, you know, the Vuelta a San Juan, which he - once the incident saw the light of day - was denied start in.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

It's their race. They can choose who can and cannot participate. They can toss someone from the event if that someone has done something to negatively effect their event be it during the actual racing or outside of it, especially if it occurs within the communities that they are running their through.

I'm don't know all the rules, but clearly it's not as straight forward. As i recall the TDF tried to keep Froome out, tried to keep Boonen out... It is also not what i was saying. I said i do not like it (and should not be possible imo), not that it is the case. It leads to random decisions, one organizer will not take action against Sagan for groping a girl, another one will kick Keisse out for a sexist picture pose. What will the next organizer deem offensive? It's random and trivial since there are no clear regulations. "When the organizer feels the image of the race is damaged"... this is open to so much interpretation, it's ***. In this case, the police was handling the situation, but the woman went to the media, and social media got involved and pressured the organization to take action, for something that happened outside the race, was not even within the period the race was being held. This is a form of justice i can not agree with. It's as simple as that.

So since she wasn't a fan its OK to treat her that way?!

Like you said, you didn't read the thread and just jumped in. Maybe you should do that first. I can't remember saying that made it ok to treat her like that. I simply stated that she wasn't a fan, unlike he said.

"She was such a big fan, she didn't know who they were, she didn't even know what the Vuelta a San Juan was.
Huge fan. Huge."

You typed that once I joined the thread so no back-read needed. What are you trying to imply with that if not what I interpreted?

 

[CTQ]

statement from the team: https://twitter.com/deceuninck_qst/status/1091123076455165952

 

[Koronin]

Re:

statement from the team: https://twitter.com/deceuninck_qst/status/1091123076455165952

That should have been done before, although it at least looks good. I'm also going to go with that came from DQS's PR Dept.

 

[CTQ]

Re: Re:

statement from the team: https://twitter.com/deceuninck_qst/status/1091123076455165952

That should have been done before, although it at least looks good. I'm also going to go with that came from DQS's PR Dept.

exactly, i would have like to read something from Lefevere starting with ''I''am sorry ......

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re: Re:

Like I said; the organisers could have kicked Sagan (or any other rider) out of all their races if it had happened today.
And you just said it yourself:
Sagan made his mistake after one race was over and the next started, so he could have been denied start in the next race (or next race by that organiser).
Keisse made his mistake after one race was over (in this case said race being the Tour of Turkey…) and the next started, that race being, you know, the Vuelta a San Juan, which he - once the incident saw the light of day - was denied start in.

Yes... and the point was, that they didn't boot Sagan. That for a similar offense, one rider is being punished, the other one is not. And you can say, that the world has changed, sure, but it was 6 years ago, not 60. I'm pretty sure it was not ok to grab a girls ass on live tv in much more of a "me-too" setting even 6 years ago. Sagan's action even took place during a race event (podium ceremony) unlike Keisse's. So what was the difference? The outcry on social media. This is simply put, not a correct way to pass judgement over what a rider does outside of a race. And again, this has nothing to do with my opinion on what he actually did. I oppose the vagueness of the rule, the randomness of who can invoke it, why and when, pass judgement and set the sentence, based on what an angry mob thinks should happen. Based on what one source claims (him rubbing his junk against her behind) while not waiting for proof and hearing out the other source (no contact). At that point, it didn't even matter anymore. Honestly i'm baffled how anyone can defend this type of "Pollice verso" judgement from ancient Rome. Because by default, if the angry internet mob is big enough, then the organizer has the allibi of invoking the rule based on image damage. One can even wonder, what exactly is needed for such a rule to be used. How much outcry is exactly needed? Which offense warrants the use of it? What if it became known, that a rider votes for a racist political party? Is it enough? By law, he is allowed to do that, but for me personally, it would be a bigger offense than the ill-conceived act of Keisse, which was a spur of the moment, lapse of judgement. While voting for a racist political party, has nothing to do with "spur of the moment", but is a well thought out decision. There are dozens of examples to be given (domestic violence, drunk driving, substance abuse...) and these race organizers, they simply lack the knowledge to interpret such offenses, they aren't judges, so they go by how much of a social outcry there is. Without the need to know the facts, without the need of the actual law, judgement can be passed. Yes, i can not agree with such "rules". And frankly, i 'm having a hard time understanding how anyone can. It has little to do with justice, it is all about PR. We have entered an age, where a known doping offender, who actively damages the image of the entire sport, can still enter races, but a rider who does something stupid outside of the race, can not.

This doesn't mean i think that Keisse should get away with what he did. But we have laws, police and a court for him to get his punnishment. It doesn't mean i think QuickStep did a commendable job handling the situation. They didn't and handled it poorly. I already gave my view on what they should have done (and could have done). And i'd be cool if UCI or some other independent organization gathered an ethics committee, a board of the same people fleshed out this vague and random rule, and sanctioned riders, based on facts, not on social outcry.