Soudal - Quick Step Thread

[Samamba]

It is not, but the regression in what used to be their core business as a cycling team is impressive nonetheless.

This was always going to happen when you focus on a GT team and some sprinters and you don't have the budget to do everything.

They should do better but expectations are just too high. I still think Asgreen will have some decent races, but he seems to be one of those guys that keeps getting sick when in top form since covid happened.

 

[theyoungest]

This was always going to happen when you focus on a GT team and some sprinters and you don't have the budget to do everything.

They should do better but expectations are just too high. I still think Asgreen will have some decent races, but he seems to be one of those guys that keeps getting sick when in top form since covid happened.

Do you have any idea of their budget vs. other teams? Lefevere likes to complain, but that doesn't tell us anything.

 

[BR2]

Do you have any idea of their budget vs. other teams? Lefevere likes to complain, but that doesn't tell us anything.

From everything I know they are a mid-budget team, literally pretty much close to the average budget. The complaints are silly on several levels, just as those from Movistar. I can understand an annoyance about teams like UAE which have a huge budget because they are used for whitewashing, but if Jumbo is able to attract big sponsors and PL is not, then he should really ask himself why that is so, instead of hitting at his riders how bad they are and that they asked for the money that apparently is their market worth.
It's not like teams are randomly given a budget at the beginning of the year and then they have to deal with that. They are allowed to actively work to attract sponsors.

 

[Netserk]

From everything I know they are a mid-budget team, literally pretty much close to the average budget.

They have been a top-5 budget team over the past decade.

 

[Anderis]

They have been a top-5 budget team over the past decade.

Yeah, pretty much every budget comparison of WT teams I've seen over the years put them no lower than 5th/6th place.

 

[Netserk]

If I had to guess, I'd think it's the team with the 2nd most money over the past decade (as an aggregate of the 10 most recent budgets). Maybe UAE or Jumbo have overtaken them (and if not they will soon). Astana could also be ahead, but I doubt it.

As of this year, I'd guess Ineos, Jumbo, UAE & Bora are ahead of them. Maybe Israel or Bahrain as well.

 

[Samamba]

From everything I know they are a mid-budget team, literally pretty much close to the average budget. The complaints are silly on several levels, just as those from Movistar. I can understand an annoyance about teams like UAE which have a huge budget because they are used for whitewashing, but if Jumbo is able to attract big sponsors and PL is not, then he should really ask himself why that is so, instead of hitting at his riders how bad they are and that they asked for the money that apparently is their market worth.
It's not like teams are randomly given a budget at the beginning of the year and then they have to deal with that. They are allowed to actively work to attract sponsors.

They definitely do not have just a mid budget team, that's just what PL wants people to think so he can use it as an excuse. But they also don't come close to what UAE, Jumbo, Bahrain, Ineos or even Bora have.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

They definitely do not have just a mid budget team, that's just what PL wants people to think so he can use it as an excuse. But they also don't come close to what UAE, Jumbo, Bahrain, Ineos or even Bora have.

Doesn't that put them far closer to mid-budget by WT standards than to the richest teams?

Having said that, with Evenepoel on a long-term contract you really should be able to bring in significantly more sponsorship money than you did a few years ago. Maybe Lefevere's long history of problematic comments has finally caught up with him, in that regard.

 

[Netserk]

They definitely do not have just a mid budget team, that's just what PL wants people to think so he can use it as an excuse. But they also don't come close to what UAE, Jumbo, Bahrain, Ineos or even Bora have.

I really doubt Bahrain have a far bigger budget. Sure, the backers have deep pockets, but just how much is actually spent?

 

[BR2]

Well, it depends on how you define "mid-budget team", mean value or median. I meant the first one.

 

[theyoungest]

They definitely do not have just a mid budget team, that's just what PL wants people to think so he can use it as an excuse. But they also don't come close to what UAE, Jumbo, Bahrain, Ineos or even Bora have.

This list compiled by L'Equipe puts Quickstep on par with Bora and Bahrain:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1584803332048441344

Ineos are always way ahead in lists like this... so far ahead in fact that the number 3 Jumbo has about half their budget. Which seems quite bizarre, what on earth do Ineos spend all that money on? Their team bus?

 

[Samu Cuenca]

This list compiled by L'Equipe puts Quickstep on par with Bora and Bahrain:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1584803332048441344

Ineos are always way ahead in lists like this... so far ahead in fact that the number 3 Jumbo has about half their budget. Which seems quite bizarre, what on earth do Ineos spend all that money on? Their team bus?

Cigarettes, whiskey and wild, wild women or rather Eurosport commentators, Teide trips and Dave Brailsford's haircuts. Marginal gains cost maximum money!

But INEOS have also been quite good at signing people who were in high demand ot at least in a position where they could demand a high salary. In some cases they've probably also offered them way too much (Diego Rosa comes to mind), because riders and agents knew they were loaded. They haven't exactly tried to downplay their budget, unlike QS and JV, at least not for the vast majority of their existence.

 

[wansteadimp]

This list compiled by L'Equipe puts Quickstep on par with Bora and Bahrain:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1584803332048441344

Ineos are always way ahead in lists like this... so far ahead in fact that the number 3 Jumbo has about half their budget. Which seems quite bizarre, what on earth do Ineos spend all that money on? Their team bus?

Well all the Eurosport commentary team appear to be on the payroll.

 

[Carrick-On-Seine]

Well all the Eurosport commentary team appear to be on the payroll.

Hatch and Blythe yeah but I don't think you can put that one on Sean Kelly or even the Aussie-obsessed Kirby.

 

[Anderis]

This list compiled by L'Equipe puts Quickstep on par with Bora and Bahrain:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1584803332048441344

Ineos are always way ahead in lists like this... so far ahead in fact that the number 3 Jumbo has about half their budget. Which seems quite bizarre, what on earth do Ineos spend all that money on? Their team bus?

Quickstep lower than I would have thought. That indeed deserves to be called a mid budget team.

AG2R on 4th place and DSM on 7th place are shocking. I would've thought they're both some 10 places lower than that. Movistar is weirdly high too, they've lost so much roster quality over the years that I thought it's because they're on lower budget now but apparently not.

If those numbers are true, it's shocking how some teams spend their money so much better than others.

 

[Volderke]

I can understand an annoyance about teams like UAE which have a huge budget because they are used for whitewashing, but if Jumbo is able to attract big sponsors and PL is not, then he should really ask himself why that is so, instead of hitting at his riders how bad they are and that they asked for the money that apparently is their market worth.
It's not like teams are randomly given a budget at the beginning of the year and then they have to deal with that. They are allowed to actively work to attract sponsors.

It's not that simple. You search for a title sponsor. That is the one that defines the overall budget. Jumbo is a very good one, but how many like Jumbo do you have, in Europe? Not that much. PL has to do with the highest bidding title sponsor. He can't just add more title sponsors (or the very definition of title sponsor is compromised, and that only works if all of your sponsors are OK with that, but then you end up like Giocattoli-Androni), so he needs:

1. a title sponsor
2. a second sponsor

additional sponsors for everything else.

If you can't get a title sponsor (in PL's case: in Belgium) that isn't willing to pay 5 million more per year and thus a second sponsor that is willing to pay 2 million more (the difference between QS and Jumbo is 7 million), you simply start the season with 7 million less than a team like Jumbo (not even talking about UAE and Ineos).

And while QS has an average budget, you need a top 5 budget to pay top 5 stars. If you have 7 million more to play with, you can overbid QS for any top 5 salary rider with (easily) a million. In a market where top riders get paid around 3-5 million, that extra million is all it takes to loose out on that 1-5 crucial transfers you need. And if you're Ineos, you can simply pick away ANY rider, and even buy a rider still on a contract by paying the fine.

The only reason QS (and other average budget teams) are still having a roster with talented riders, is the fact that even top teams have limited spaces in their roster, and some riders are rather willing to ride their own program / be a protected rider, for less money, than just cash in at Ineos.

 

[theyoungest]

It's not that simple. You search for a title sponsor. That is the one that defines the overall budget. Jumbo is a very good one, but how many like Jumbo do you have, in Europe? Not that much. PL has to do with the highest bidding title sponsor. He can't just add more title sponsors (or the very definition of title sponsor is compromised, and that only works if all of your sponsors are OK with that, but then you end up like Giocattoli-Androni), so he needs:

1. a title sponsor
2. a second sponsor

additional sponsors for everything else.

If you can't get a title sponsor (in PL's case: in Belgium) that isn't willing to pay 5 million more per year and thus a second sponsor that is willing to pay 2 million more (the difference between QS and Jumbo is 7 million), you simply start the season with 7 million less than a team like Jumbo (not even talking about UAE and Ineos).

And while QS has an average budget, you need a top 5 budget to pay top 5 stars. If you have 7 million more to play with, you can overbid QS for any top 5 salary rider with (easily) a million. In a market where top riders get paid around 3-5 million, that extra million is all it takes to loose out on that 1-5 crucial transfers you need. And if you're Ineos, you can simply pick away ANY rider, and even buy a rider still on a contract by paying the fine.

The only reason QS (and other average budget teams) are still having a roster with talented riders, is the fact that even top teams have limited spaces in their roster, and some riders are rather willing to ride their own program / be a protected rider, for less money, than just cash in at Ineos.

Jumbo is a good sponsor, sure, but in a cycling crazy country like Belgium it should be possible to find an equivalent. Sometimes I wonder why Jumbo would even want to pay all this money because the coverage in their home market actually isn't that huge, and I don't think they sell more soup cans or toilet paper from sponsoring cycling. I think they get more return on investment from the speedskating team. You don't have that problem in Belgium.

 

[Carrick-On-Seine]

Jumbo is a good sponsor, sure, but in a cycling crazy country like Belgium it should be possible to find an equivalent. Sometimes I wonder why Jumbo would even want to pay all this money because the coverage in their home market actually isn't that huge, and I don't think they sell more soup cans or toilet paper from sponsoring cycling. I think they get more return on investment from the speedskating team. You don't have that problem in Belgium.

But Belgium is pretty small and has four major teams competing for money plus some Pro and Conti teams and basically all of cyclocross.

 

[Red Rick]

It's not that simple. You search for a title sponsor. That is the one that defines the overall budget. Jumbo is a very good one, but how many like Jumbo do you have, in Europe? Not that much. PL has to do with the highest bidding title sponsor. He can't just add more title sponsors (or the very definition of title sponsor is compromised, and that only works if all of your sponsors are OK with that, but then you end up like Giocattoli-Androni), so he needs:

1. a title sponsor
2. a second sponsor

additional sponsors for everything else.

If you can't get a title sponsor (in PL's case: in Belgium) that isn't willing to pay 5 million more per year and thus a second sponsor that is willing to pay 2 million more (the difference between QS and Jumbo is 7 million), you simply start the season with 7 million less than a team like Jumbo (not even talking about UAE and Ineos).

And while QS has an average budget, you need a top 5 budget to pay top 5 stars. If you have 7 million more to play with, you can overbid QS for any top 5 salary rider with (easily) a million. In a market where top riders get paid around 3-5 million, that extra million is all it takes to loose out on that 1-5 crucial transfers you need. And if you're Ineos, you can simply pick away ANY rider, and even buy a rider still on a contract by paying the fine.

The only reason QS (and other average budget teams) are still having a roster with talented riders, is the fact that even top teams have limited spaces in their roster, and some riders are rather willing to ride their own program / be a protected rider, for less money, than just cash in at Ineos.

This explains why they can't by 5 top stars, it doesn't explain why they're getting smashed to bits in the cobbled classics.

 

[Volderke]

Jumbo is a good sponsor, sure, but in a cycling crazy country like Belgium it should be possible to find an equivalent. Sometimes I wonder why Jumbo would even want to pay all this money because the coverage in their home market actually isn't that huge, and I don't think they sell more soup cans or toilet paper from sponsoring cycling. I think they get more return on investment from the speedskating team. You don't have that problem in Belgium.

It should indeed be possible to find an equivalent, but there are always (stupid? smart?) reasons why it doesn't happen. You kind of need a Belgian company that has plenty of money and the ambition to expand in W-Europe, or (and that happens the most) you have a company that has plenty of money (but not plenty like Ineos) in which the CEO is cycling-minded. Traditionally, most sponsor money is going to soccer, even though I feel the sponsors in that sport aren't as big as they used to be (e.g. big banks were sponsoring soccer 10-20 years ago, and now it's betting companies, but betting sponsors will be forbidden in some years).

In the particular case of Jumbo: they are expanding into Flanders, so sponsoring cycling, with WvA, is a perfect way of introducing their supermarket brand. Without Jumbo, what other Dutch company would step in and sponsor as much...? I fail to see which one.

 

[Volderke]

This explains why they can't by 5 top stars, it doesn't explain why they're getting smashed to bits in the cobbled classics.

I think a guy like Asgreen, in good fitness, can still win the Tour of Flanders. As much as I believe WvA can win this...

 

[Ricco']

For a team who can't outbid top-5 stars, right now they have at least 2 in their roster.

Last year, QS started the season with 6 of the top-50 riders of 2021 in CQRanking (Alaphilippe, Asgreen, Cavendish, Evenepoel, Honoré and Senechal) and had another 4 who were on places 51 to 100.

In the end of the season they only had two finishing in the top-50 (Evenepoel and Jakobsen) and another 3 on places 51 to 100 (Cavendish, Schmid and Vansevenant).

So, of the 10 QS riders who were on the world top-100 in 2021, only 3 managed to stay there in the end of the season. It's not a problem of failing to attract the biggest talent, something has changed, specifically last year, that made most of the team underperform.

For comparison, here is the number or QS riders in the top100 of CQ Ranking since the introduction of the ProTour/WorldTour:

2005 - 5
2006 - 5
2007 - 6
2008 - 6
2009 - 4
2010 - 3
2011 - 2
2012 - 6
2013 - 7
2014 - 8
2015 - 10
2016 - 12
2017 - 9
2018 - 11
2019 - 10
2020 - 10
2021 - 12
2022 - 5

 

[Volderke]

They always punched (a bit, sometimes a lot) above their weight (money vs. talent).
They have 2 top 5 riders because they got them the moment they weren't top 5, and were able to hold them (thanks to PL hypnothising powers )
But they are not able to buy 3-4 superdoms for Evenepoel like Ineos does / did.

I think the classics team is underperforming last year / this year simply because the classics' stars are transfered / retired after Boonen, and no money is invested in trying to keep the classics nucleus as good as it once was. So once you have less talented wolves and no alpha male wolf for the classics (or that alpha wolf is crashing (Alaphilippe) / ill (Asgreen), your wolfpack won't catch anything, anymore...

 

[Red Rick]

It should indeed be possible to find an equivalent, but there are always (stupid? smart?) reasons why it doesn't happen. You kind of need a Belgian company that has plenty of money and the ambition to expand in W-Europe, or (and that happens the most) you have a company that has plenty of money (but not plenty like Ineos) in which the CEO is cycling-minded. Traditionally, most sponsor money is going to soccer, even though I feel the sponsors in that sport aren't as big as they used to be (e.g. big banks were sponsoring soccer 10-20 years ago, and now it's betting companies, but betting sponsors will be forbidden in some years).

In the particular case of Jumbo: they are expanding into Flanders, so sponsoring cycling, with WvA, is a perfect way of introducing their supermarket brand. Without Jumbo, what other Dutch company would step in and sponsor as much...? I fail to see which one.

Wasn't there some study that basically calculated the ROI on cycling sponsorship is huge compared to many other things just because the Tour de France exposure is so huge?

As for the money SQS has, I wonder how much Evenepoel, Alaphilippe, and maybe to a slightly lesser degree Jakobsen, Merlier and Asgreen are on. My impression at the least is that Alaphilippes value has completely tanked, Asgreen is only top tier in a very narrow niche of races, and sprinters are always gonna be volatile assets in the first place.

Also not all superstars are created equal. From what I understand Pogacar is a lot more expensive than Van Aert or Roglic, and he might be on as much as the 2 combined. MvdP I'm also unsure if he's on a top 5 road contract. I think it's reasonable that Evenepoel is like the 2nd most valuable rider in the world behind Pogacar, but does SQS pay him like that? IIRC Evenepoel has always been fairly vocal about refusing higher contracts in favor of DQS at the time.

I think Quick Step used to dominate on a mid budget specifically because they didn't invest in GC riders and completely cornered the sprinting and cobbled disciplins. However now the landscape for sprinting and cobbles has changed a lot IMO. They're no longer super far ahead of the pack in leadout quality, and they're no longer the only one with a strong, focused team on the cobbles. So part of their decreased results is simply increased competition.

Now finally I think part of their appeal might always have been that they overperform, so riders might have been inclined to sigh for slightly hoping they would win more. That appeal is gonna go down the drain very quick if they continue this way.

 

[Anderis]

The only reason QS (and other average budget teams) are still having a roster with talented riders, is the fact that even top teams have limited spaces in their roster, and some riders are rather willing to ride their own program / be a protected rider, for less money, than just cash in at Ineos.

No, that's not the only reason.

Ineos' budget is big but not unlimited and average budget teams' budgets are lower, but they're not 0. Ineos can't outbid other teams on every rider even if they would hypothetically have unlimited leadership opportunities.

Let's say Ineos have €20m for rider salaries and QS have €8m. Ineos take one big star for €5m, another for €4m and another for €3m. So for their remainding 27 riders they have €8m to spend and QS also have €8m to spend. It means for QS would be able to match or even outbid Ineos for say 1 out of 4 big name riders. Those numbers are made up but you get what's the logic here. After a big budget team commits some of their budget to some of the riders they don't have enough left to outbid other teams on every other rider.