Sour grapes from Vaughters?

[BroDeal]

But that's just my opinion. If Garmin's contract jurisdiction is anything similar to Australian contract law, i think Vaughters might have some problems if either Lowe or White take it up.

Yeah, I can see Lowe going into an American court and telling the jury, "I breached my contract and Slipsteam would not pay me for December, so I tried to blackmail them for 500K. They still would not pay me. So I ask you, the jury, to show me da money."

Lowe was not fired by the team. His contract ended in 2010 and was not renewed.

White may not even have a contract. He could be a regular employee, and in America regular employees barely have more rights than an inmate at Gauntanamo.

 

[ingsve]

That section of today's Garmin press release is relevant.

I should probably say the following is MY OWN OPINION. I have no idea if it also represents Canadian contract law or whatever jurisdiction under which the Garmin business operates.

Lowe notifying Vaughters or Vaughters' staff in June 2009, via an email-attached pdf, with his reference to the del Moral visit in that pdf's LETTERHEAD no less, is enough to put Vaughters ON CONSTRUCTIVE NOTICE AT THAT TIME of Lowe's de Moral visit.

Vaughters and Garmin were on notice as of the moment that email attachment hit Vaughter's inbox. At law, this concept is referred to as being placed under "constructive knowledge". That means whether you know it or not, you should know it and other people can rely on the assumption that you know it.

Constructive knowledge has the effect that Vaughters knew of the del Moral visit and that fact can be relied upon by Lowe. And obviously, by extension, White. Both can assume they've done nothing their bosses don't sanction and endorse.

If Vaughters or Vaughters' staff didn't read his emails, well that wasn't Lowe's problem. Nor was it White's problem. Effective notice had been made at that time.

By virtue of the fact that Vaughters retained both Lowe and White from that moment on, and allowed both employees to represent him in ongoing business, Vaughters conduct is such that he accepts the situation and gave it the OK. Both Lowe and White have a legal right to expect they have done nothing that Vaughters disagrees with.

As for any suggestion Lowe and his counsel demanded money to stay quiet about it, well i can only speak for myself and say that **** just ain't on and i don't blame Vaughters & Co for feeling quite miffed by that. Poor form on Lowe's part (or his advisor). Naive and stupid.

But that's just my opinion. If Garmin's contract jurisdiction is anything similar to Australian contract law, i think Vaughters might have some problems if either Lowe or White take it up.

Either way, saying "I don't read my emails and i don't take my riders' correspondence to me seriously" is no defence to the charge that you knew about something that was in those emails at the time they are sent.

Well, I don't think this would have an impact on either case. For Trent Lowe the visit to del Moral is not part of the current dispute. Trent was simply out of contract and other than that their whole dispute is about his december salary which is held back because of actions taken by Lowe with regard to Pegasus and not something that relates to del Moral.

As for White the attached PDF only mentions del Moral but nothing about the visit being referred by White which is the only offence that is of value to Slipstream in Whites case. One could argue that had someone reacted in 2009 and investigated the situation they might have found out about the referral but that is merely speculation and not a fact that is evident by the PDF itself and can't be said to be constructive knowledge. In other words the visit is constructive knowledge but the referral isn't.

 

[valentius borealis]

It could very well be a scummy tactic taken from the Bruyneel-Armstrong playbook, which screwed many a rider who was leaving the team out of his split of the team's prize money.

On the other hand, during the off season riders are not racing. The only duty that a rider has to the team is to train in his team kit on the team bike. If Lowe was training on another bike in another kit then he is not doing his job, so why should the team pay him?

It is interesting that when Lowe did not get paid, the way he told Slipstream to F off was to reveal info that caused the removal of White, someone who would not have had anything to do with the decision to not pay Lowe. Lowe decided to cause Garmin embarassment by stabbing his bro in the back. That's just cold.

There are a few more question which could be asked about Lowe's role in this.

Was he already in talks with Pegasus at the time of the dispute?
Had he already decided that he was on his way out (or about to be pushed)?
Could the decision to disclose his visit to Dr Garcia del Moral (and Matt White's referral) have been prompted or influenced in any way by Chris White?

 

[Bailey]

Yeah, I can see Lowe going into an American court and telling the jury, "I breached my contract and Slipsteam would not pay me for December, so I tried to blackmail them for 500K. They still would not pay me. So I ask you, the jury, to show me da money."

Lowe was not fired by the team. His contract ended in 2010 and was not renewed.

White may not even have a contract. He could be a regular employee, and in America regular employees barely have more rights than an inmate at Gauntanamo.

EDIT: i should've also just added that i agree with your point that Lowe's contract is not relevant. But White has a strong right to assume some contract under equitable principles, whether it is formal or otherwise.

Well USA is not Canada, even though you are quite right that they are both located on the continent of (North) America.

Is Garmin a Canadian or USA registered team? I don't know.

Does Garmin employ its riders under Canadian contract law? I don't know. That IS highly relevant.

If my memory serves me correctly, Canada operates under different laws to the USA, derived from British common law. As does Australia. Both Australia and Canada are part of the Commonwealth. Both Canada and Australia might be similar jurisdictions in this regard.

Either way, Lowe's 'contractual negotiation prowess' might not have been fairly described in the Garmin press release (who are we to say?). There are two sides to every story, and we might be relying too much on how Garmin's press release has described it.

Either way, that is a separate issue from the Vaughters sacking of White and the facts surrounding that decision. Vaughters and Garmin won't be able to use Trent Lowe's naivety to get out of any applicable legal obligations to White.

 

[Bailey]

In other words the visit is constructive knowledge but the referral isn't.

Quite true.

 

[BroDeal]

Well USA is not Canada, even though you are quite right that they are both located on the continent of (North) America.

Is Garmin a Canadian or USA registered team? I don't know.

Does Garmin employ its riders under Canadian contract law? I don't know. That IS highly relevant.

If my memory serves me correctly, Canada operates under different laws to the USA, derived from British common law. As does Australia. Both Australia and Canada are part of the Commonwealth. Both Canada and Australia might be similar jurisdictions in this regard.

Either way, Lowe's 'contractual negotiation prowess' might not have been fairly described in the Garmin press release (who are we to say?). There are two sides to every story, and we might be relying too much on how Garmin's press release has described it.

Either way, that is a separate issue from the Vaughters sacking of White and the facts surrounding that decision. Vaughters and Garmin won't be able to use Trent Lowe's naivety to get out of any applicable legal obligations to White.

Why the heck would you assume that Slipsteam Sports is a Canadian company? It has been American (as in "America, F*** Yeah") since its inception.

If White was a regular "at will" employee then Slipsteam does not have much obligation to White other than to say, "It's been real. Your services are no longer required. We'll mail the balance of the current pay period to you. C'ya, dude."

 

[Bailey]

Why the heck would you assume that Slipsteam Sports is a Canadian company? It has been American (as in "America, F*** Yeah") since its inception.

If White was a regular "at will" employee then Slipsteam does not have much obligation to White other than to say, "It's been real. Your services are no longer required. We'll mail the balance of the current pay period to you. C'ya, dude."

Ok. Yeah no idea why i assumed it was Canadian. Is Vaughters canadian? why have i channelled canada into any of this?

Can we just blame Canada?

I would apologise for any misunderstanding, but i think i may need to make that my permanent 'sig' for this forum soon!

As i said, i'm not full bottle on which jurisdiction any of these contracts were made under. Also, we seem to be relying on too many "if" assumptions to have much of a substantive brawl over this stuff.

PS - "America" is not only the World Police. Other countries besides the World Police exist in "America", too.

 

[BroDeal]

Ok. Yeah no idea why i assumed it was Canadian. Is Vaughters canadian? why have i channelled canada into any of this?

Vaughters only looks Canadian. We'd give him a few tattoos and a backwards baseball cap, but those would clash with tweed.

Can we just blame Canada?

Blaming Canada, just like Samuel Adams, is always a good choice.

 

[ElChingon]

How long till a DS states he has Alzheimer's and forgot Dr. Fuentes is a banned doctor and hired him to help all his riders out during one of his bad spells with Alzheimer's? They can't banned them for that, right?

Basically, how the whole Garmin story reads to me, as long as they say they didn't know, its all okie dokie!

See no Evil, hear no Evil, so no Evil was done.

Now back to your regularly planned doping.

 

[Bailey]

vaughters only looks canadian. We'd give him a few tattoos and a backwards baseball cap, but those would clash with tweed.

Gold!

blaming canada, just like samuel adams, is always a good choice.

Hahaha!

 

[Bailey]

How long till a DS states he has Alzheimer's and forgot Dr. Fuentes is a banned doctor and hired him to help all his riders out during one of his bad spells with Alzheimer's? They can't banned them for that, right?

Basically, how the whole Garmin story reads to me, as long as they say they didn't know, its all okie dokie!

See no Evil, hear no Evil, so no Evil was done.

Now back to your regularly planned doping.

Well it's funny you should say that.

With the exception of any confessions as to Alzheimers, a certain FBI investigation related to doping has already been receiving, en masse, that very type of standard response to any of its questions!

EDIT:

The point you've raised is a good one. What's good for the goose is good for the gander:

If Vaughters is to be praised (by cyclingnews included) for maintaining such a strict "pedantic" standards in this sport, and for sacking his staff on such highly technical bases, then perhaps he should also consider maintaining his own high, pedantic standards when it comes to reading his own emails when he receives them? Or just when keeping tabs on his rider's records and correspondence to him?

Does he hold himself up to his own standards? It might help his cause; especially if he's later going to rely on those standards - and CITE them - to sack his employees. Clearly he's not so strict at reading his own important correspondence or rider's records. Nor assessing all the implications therein. If he's such a righteous stickler to protocol, why did it fall to Lowe to tell him about stuff he could've (should've) known over a season ago?

Lastly, what other emails has Vaughters and his staff overlooked over the past several years? Lance's former bosses and team mates apparently overlooked or forgot a whole bunch of stuff, too.

Like i said, rushed, emotion-based business decisions are rarely prudent.

 

[Scansorial]

The whole "we didn't look at the letterhead" thing seems more than a little fishy to me. Would Vaughters have looked the other way if White & Lowe were being good little employees?

 

[WinterRider]

Is Garmin a Canadian or USA registered team? I don't know.

This explains a lot of your posts in this thread. I've been interested in the discussion going on but almost all of your posts have been red herrings and a waste of time to read.

Your comments are appearing increasingly trollish, but now you have outed yourself as just woefully uninformed.

I certainly aplaud your interest, but perhaps you could tone it down a bit until you learn a bit more about the world of professional cycling. You are distracting from an otherwise interesting discussion.

 

[Bailey]

This explains a lot of your posts in this thread. I've been interested in the discussion going on but almost all of your posts have been red herrings and a waste of time to read.

Please feel free to skip over any of my posts. I certainly hope no one on your end is forcing you to read them.

In the meantime, since you and I both paid the exact same amount of money to register on this forum and post however the hell we see fit (in accordance with the rules) I guess we both ought to mind our own business when it comes to how and what each other posts?

Judging from the PMs I've received from other members, and the fact that the site's Editor-in-Chief just posted immediately before you in order to agree with one of my posts, I suggest it's you who is out of line.

Your comments are appearing increasingly trollish, but now you have outed yourself as just woefully uninformed.

Could you point to an example that demonstrates my "increasingly" trollish conduct?

On certain points, I'm uninformed (as i've clearly stated). Most of us are, especially while the Vaughters press releases are being trickled out, bit by bit.

I certainly aplaud your interest, but perhaps you could tone it down a bit until you learn a bit more about the world of professional cycling.

Your applause is not something i'm concerned about. My tone is a matter for myself and the site's admins. Who on earth are you to tell me how to post? Again, mind your own business.

I think you'll find one of the biggest problems is that "the world of professional cycling" actually needs to "tone itself down until it learns a bit more about the world of" legal principle and the administration of rules. Just ask Lance. Or Alberto.

You are distracting from an otherwise interesting discussion.

Certain folks in "the world of professional cycling" are finding that legal principle is distracting from its otherwise profitable conduct, too.

That said, please feel free to skip over my posts as necessary.

 

[Hoop Dogg]

IIRC, Lowe was photographed at the Pegasus training camp in noosa back in December 2010. Him and tuft were both in their garmin kits. No problem there. Mcewen was in his katusha kit and other riders were in their respective kits belonging to the squads they were, at the time, contracted to. HOWEVER, there were a number of photos of Scott bikes, riders with the bikes, and riders riding the bikes. If still contracted to garmin, would it not be a breach of contract for Lowe to be photographed riding anything other than a felt machine before january 1st 2011?