Speech by Greg Lemond

[BroDeal]

admiting he doped would be kind of stupid don't you think? what high profile rider that is never caught ever does that? they all deny, most deny even after being caught.

Bjarne Riis springs to mind as a rider who was never caught who later confessed.

Jerome Chiotti is the only real example I can think of. Riders like Riis and Zabel only confessed because they were exposed when the T-Mobile program was revealed; they were simply smart enough not to make denials that would have made them look like fools.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

even if kohl things everything he's saying is true it doesn't make it so unless he's more all seeing and all knowing than i expect he his. i'm glad he's being frank but i think he's exaggeration

So why not pressure the UCI to look into it? Why just ignore it, and pretend like it doesn't exist?

I think if you ask doping experts they'll say that designing testing programs that will withstand legal challenges is a major difficulty. i think we see that with the blood passport program now. i think they are trying to be careful that they have everything right before they come after someone. this coming monday should be interesting.

Legal challenges are not the issue. Riders sign a sporting contract. If the sporting contract is legit, then the rules are in place and must be abided by. This is not a court of law we are talking about, it's a sporting event. As stands, all the riders signed contracts agreeing that if under suspicion for doping, they can be kept form racing. The UCI however picks and chooses who they apply this to. Should this contract be void in your opinion, unless it's upheld in a court of law? And then, what laws would apply to riders saying the organizations must be forced to allow them to race in the event they own?

i think the power tap idea opens up a technical and legal can of worms.

See other thread. And we already have a can of worms.

if you are that cynical i don't even see how you can justify being a fan.

Pretending there isn't a problem isn't going to make it go away, or make the sport better.

Never said the solution with Lance is for him to admit doping. I said he upheld the omerta in every way, and showed no interest in treating doping in sport as being a serious problem. You seem to take the same angle. Same with the other Lance supporters. No matter how many scandals come out, no matter how many positive tests, you act like it's not a problem that needs to be better addressed. And that, more than anything else, baffles me.

 

[Anonymous]

So why not pressure the UCI to look into it? Why just ignore it, and pretend like it doesn't exist?

uci should look into it. absolutly.

Legal challenges are not the issue. Riders sign a sporting contract. If the sporting contract is legit, then the rules are in place and must be abided by. This is not a court of law we are talking about, it's a sporting event. As stands, all the riders signed contracts agreeing that if under suspicion for doping, they can be kept form racing. The UCI however picks and chooses who they apply this to. Should this contract be void in your opinion, unless it's upheld in a court of law? And then, what laws would apply to riders saying the organizations must be forced to allow them to race in the event they own?

seems i remember reading that now. is that just this year? has anybody been fired yet using that clause? it's a great thing!
still, the main funtion of courts is to settle contract disputes. happens all the time.

Pretending there isn't a problem isn't going to make it go away, or make the sport better.

you seem to know nothing but how to set up straw men.
you mistate my opinion. i do NOT pretend there isn't a problem. i've said it over and over and over again. if lance or anybody else is doping now i hope they get caught. i know nobody on here that doesn't hope that.

Never said the solution with Lance is for him to admit doping. I said he upheld the omerta in every way, and showed no interest in treating doping in sport as being a serious problem. You seem to take the same angle. Same with the other Lance supporters. No matter how many scandals come out, no matter how many positive tests, you act like it's not a problem that needs to be better addressed. And that, more than anything else, baffles me.

same straw man.
you are all histerical about lance fans that deny a doping problem in cycling. they only exist in your mind. i guess you need them there to argue with.

 

[Anonymous]

C'mon, jackhammer. You have Coyle's paper - no loss in body weight or lean body weight. The whole body weight/composition argument is false and you know it. In regards to his pedigree, I agree Armstrong was a very good rider pre-Cancer ... but he was a very good one-day rider, he was no GT contender and he wasn't that flash in the TT either (funnily enough considering his triathlon background).

frankly, i'm surprised to hear you use data from a study that have previously completely discredited to make an argument.

 

[elapid]

frankly, i'm surprised to hear you use data from a study that have previously completely discredited to make an argument.

To quote CSI, "The evidence doesn't lie."

Coyle lists Armstrong's lean and gross body weights. I disagree with Coyle's conclusions, but not his raw data. His raw data shows that Armstrong did not lose any body weight, in fact he put about 1kg on between preseasons 1993 and 1999.

 

[krebs303]

C'mon, jackhammer. You have Coyle's paper - no loss in body weight or lean body weight. The whole body weight/composition argument is false and you know it. In regards to his pedigree, I agree Armstrong was a very good rider pre-Cancer ... but he was a very good one-day rider, he was no GT contender and he wasn't that flash in the TT either (funnily enough considering his triathlon background).

couldn't find a podium pic from 1999. but he sure looks smaller in the face and upper body.

1993

2005

 

[Anonymous]

To quote CSI, "The evidence doesn't lie."

Coyle lists Armstrong's lean and gross body weights. I disagree with Coyle's conclusions, but not his raw data. His raw data shows that Armstrong did not lose any body weight, in fact he put about 1kg on between preseasons 1993 and 1999.

i'd feel better if you were using evidence that didn't come from a source that you, yourself had already proved was bunk.

grissom would not approve.

 

[BikeCentric]

Don't want to start a fight! that's LeMonds speciality! And it stinks, like cycling doesn't have enough problems nowadays! Expecially now with Kohl, Valverde and Colom...if the man wants to do something good for cycling he should keep his mouth shut in times like these, not further tearing the wound!

I hate to get personal, but you are a small-minded little troll Belokki. There is a known problem in cycling, that problem is doping. And you are here telling us that we, and LeMond in particular "should keep our mouths shut in times like these" as if the problem would go away on its own if ignored. That is one of the stupidest ideas I have ever heard. It's people like you that have corrupted this great sport. Go away.

 

[Anonymous]

couldn't find a podium pic from 1999. but he sure looks smaller in the face and upper body.

1993

2005

thank you.
not to mention neck.

 

[elapid]

couldn't find a podium pic from 1999. but he sure looks smaller in the face and upper body.

1993

2005

I am not questioning Coyle's raw data, just the methods he used to reach his conclusions. I think Grissom would welcome the critical thinking. I am surprised that you have written all of Coyle's work off as untrustworthy because of a couple of wonky calculations. You don't apply the same thought processes to a Mr. Armstrong.

However, I must admit to being gobsmacked with the two photos posted by krebs303. People think he is a fatty now - what till they see his 1993 photo. A pity we don't have raw data for racing weights at any stage in his career.

 

[nobody]

couldn't find a podium pic from 1999. but he sure looks smaller in the face and upper body.

1993

2005

Maybe you should compare before the start of TDF and not to the end.
Some people told me that riders were lossing weight during a GT. They are probably false but better to believe they are right.

In 1993 Armstrong was feeded by hormones as we can see on that pictures... I never showed a clean pro-rider like that... he should have gone on track!

 

[BikeCentric]

admiting he doped would be kind of stupid don't you think? what high profile rider that is never caught ever does that? they all deny, most deny even after being caught.




Bjarne Riis springs to mind as a rider who was never caught who later confessed.

Don't forget Jerome Chiotti, the World mountain bike champion who admitted after he won that he used EPO to win the Worlds, then turned in his jersey and retired. He never tested positive.

 

[BikeCentric]

Maybe you should compare before the start of TDF and not to the end.
Some people told me that riders were lossing weight during a GT. They are probably false but better to believe they are right.

In 1993 Armstrong was feeded by hormones as we can see on that pictures... I never showed a clean pro-rider like that... he should have gone on track!

You are correct about rider weight loss during a Grand Tour - the caloric requirements for such an event are difficult for a rider to keep up with.

 

[krebs303]

Maybe you should compare before the start of TDF and not to the end.
Some people told me that riders were lossing weight during a GT. They are probably false but better to believe they are right.

good point. I tried to find 2 pics about the same size and camera angle.
This from 99.

If he weighed the same as 93 at the start of the tour in 99 wouldn't that rapid of weight loss be detrimental to performance even with EPO? Or is that where testosterone and HGH come into play?

I only know how to train clean

 

[Anonymous]

You are correct about rider weight loss during a Grand Tour - the caloric requirements for such an event are difficult for a rider to keep up with.

i'm no expert but, climbers go into the tour with very little left to lose, (or is that loose?), that being the whole point of being at the peak (or is that peek?) of your training, is to be carrying as little body fat up the mountains as possible.

there is very little left they can lose and still have energy to perform. it's why they have to take the insane amount of calories they do. with such low bodyfat they will bonk when they run out of nutients in the blood, the gut is empty and they're using it faster than it can be retrieved from what little fat there is left.

when you bonk no amount of will power will keep you going. actually, pushing too hard after you've hit the wall can seriously harm or even kill you.
i don't know about in cycling but i remember people running themselves to death in marathons and ultras a long time ago.
they started weighing people in long triathlons and ultra marathons and if you lost (or is it loost?) too much weight in the run you were out.


but it's evidently all just a doping contest anyway which means any search for subtly is futile.

 

[Anonymous]

good point. I tried to find 2 pics about the same size and camera angle.

This from 99.

If he weighed the same as 93 at the start of the tour in 99 wouldn't that rapid of weight loss be detrimental to performance even with EPO? Or is that where testosterone and HGH come into play?

I only know how to train clean[/QUOTE]

the claim on the table is that he lost a bunch of weight when he was sick and didn't regain about ten pounds of it.

i don't know what "rapid" weight loss you mean.
if you are comparing the pre tour 99 pic to the post 05 pic i think the 6 year difference comes into play. i'm sure you looked different 6 years apart too.

yes, rapid weight loss is detrimental. that's why it's not done rapidly.

contador is down to the last kilo.

 

[Anonymous]

good point. I tried to find 2 pics about the same size and camera angle.
This from 99.

If he weighed the same as 93 at the start of the tour in 99 wouldn't that rapid of weight loss be detrimental to performance even with EPO? Or is that where testosterone and HGH come into play?

I only know how to train clean

the claim on the table is that he lost a bunch of weight when he was sick and didn't regain about ten pounds of it.

i don't know what "rapid" weight loss you mean.
if you are comparing the pre tour 99 pic to the post 05 pic i think the 6 year difference comes into play. i'm sure you looked different 6 years apart too.

 

[elapid]

If he weighed the same as 93 at the start of the tour in 99 wouldn't that rapid of weight loss be detrimental to performance even with EPO?

This is the table jackhammer and I have been referring to:

Horner believes his recent good form in the Giro was due to being as light as he has ever been. I am not sure how quickly he lost that weight, but I would imagine sudden weight loss would be detrimental to your performance, with or without drugs, but may still be better in the mountains than if you were heavier.

 

[krebs303]

the claim on the table is that he lost a bunch of weight when he was sick and didn't regain about ten pounds of it.

i don't know what "rapid" weight loss you mean.
if you are comparing the pre tour 99 pic to the post 05 pic i think the 6 year difference comes into play. i'm sure you looked different 6 years apart too.

I was comparing the 93 pic to the 99 pic

This is what I was refering to:
"His raw data shows that Armstrong did not lose any body weight, in fact he put about 1kg on between preseasons 1993 and 1999."

It was stated that he weighed the same at the start of the 99 tour as he did in 93. just comparing those two pics he looks much thinner in the 99 pic. which over 3 weeks seems quite a loss judging from the pics if he weighed the same in 99 as he did in 93 at the beginning of the tour. The 99 pic is from the podium in Paris at the end of the tour

anything over 2lbs. a week is usually considered rapid loss.

other than aging my pic wouldn't look too much different. However go back 12 years and I was 400lbs.( How many stone is that?) I lost 160lbs and have kept it off.

How many calories a day would a tour rider consume in a day. 8000 to 10,000?
I was taking 5000 to 6000 a day training 2 hours a day when I was doing marathons. But at my size it is easy to burn a 1000 calories an an hour even at a moderate pace.

Thanks for the input.

 

[BroDeal]

This is the table jackhammer and I have been referring to:

Horner believes his recent good form in the Giro was due to being as light as he has ever been. I am not sure how quickly he lost that weight, but I would imagine sudden weight loss would be detrimental to your performance, with or without drugs, but may still be better in the mountains than if you were heavier.

If I remember right, the 2005 pre-TdF health check had Armstrong at 75 kilograms, which is the same weight in that table as his race weight in his early twenties.

Face shots are deceiving. I know a lot of hardcore endurance athletes that have faces that look considerably thinner and more drawn than they were in their early twenties but they are still not any lighter. Look at Armstrong's photos from the Giro and you can see the facial bones under his skin, yet he is obviously heavier than he was a few years ago.

 

[krebs303]

If I remember right, the 2005 pre-TdF health check had Armstrong at 75 kilograms, which is the same weight in that table as his race weight in his early twenties.

Face shots are deceiving. I know a lot of hardcore endurance athletes that have faces that look considerably thinner and more drawn than they were in their early twenties but they are still not any lighter. Look at Armstrong's photos from the Giro and you can see the facial bones under his skin, yet he is obviously heavier than he was a few years ago.

That's why I chose the pics with about the same pose and camera angle. but your right time of day, flash or no flash, shadows, can all change the perception of the photograph.

 

[tifosa]

I have stated in this thread I think Armstrong isn't riding clean.

I have never tested positive. I am the most tested athlete in sports.

Is a straight answer so difficult?


Tough crowd. Cripes, it's like you're all under oath on this forum!

 

[krebs303]

Is a straight answer so difficult?


Tough crowd. Cripes, it's like you're all under oath on this forum!

There is no conversation without contradiction.

 

[Frigo's Briefcase]

http://www.playthegame.org/conferen...e-time-tour-de-france-winner-greg-lemond.html

Hey pickles. Imagine seeing you here.

 

[Anonymous]

Hey pickles. Imagine seeing you here.

Hey, nice picture of the GUYS who saw Liz Hatch.....WTF is up with that? Then again, it would be hard to outdo the Maxim pictures anyway. Good to see you here, it is quite a silly place, but strangely more civil than CF.