Speech by Greg Lemond

[Frigo's Briefcase]

You mean I should get out of the Vadar mode and stop asking people who the Hog is?

 

[Anonymous]

You mean I should get out of the Vadar mode and stop asking people who the Hog is?

Well, only Jeff is Jeff, and I just don't think you can method act the thing unless you are fully in character. Gotta have the avatar too. Otherwise the effect is really diminished.

The discourse is actually pretty good. Most of them hate me, but then again, my sweet disposition rubs a lot of people the wrong way. I mean, you have the two sided thing, but even most of the people in the Lance camp think he doped....except for Belokki, but hey, you can't expect miracles. Most of the negative feedback involves b!tching about Lance coming up in every thread.

Should be a fun month and a half coming up, stick around and stir the pot.

I sure would like to see JV though, that guy is freaking funny.

 

[BigBoat]

Facial appearance, and cameras make you look different from shot to shot. (usually much bigger than you are in person)

Lance lost about 10-12 pounds and this would have given him at most 8% higher FTP per kilo. He needed atleast a 15% boost to go from 35th at best to 1st by 5 minutes.

Lances post Ferrari V02 max was much higher than pre Ferrari and this was in part due to weight loss but also due to far superior scientific drug therapy as Ferrari is known for. Lance has had many secrets that nobody but him and Ferrari now know except he maybe made the idiotic mistake of telling Contador what he did before retiring for the first time. Stupid!

Lance is very indecisive actually and he semi-retired after his cancer too.

 

[BigBoat]

If I remember right, the 2005 pre-TdF health check had Armstrong at 75 kilograms,QUOTE]

Well in the morning when he has not eaten and after he has pi$$ed he will weigh less. You weigh yourself in the morning so that you can see variations in body fat loss, muscle loss, etc.

Lance probably weighed 72 kg or so 2 weeks into the Tour, maybe less. If he could hold 475 watts for an hour nonstop, fully doped thats about 6.6 maybe 6.7 watts per kilo. Nobody's gonna beat that without a motor on their bike and some gasoline. LOL

 

[krebs303]

Nobody's gonna beat that without a motor on their bike and some gasoline. LOL

Zoooom. might as well be jet powered. Is EPO combustible?

 

[BroDeal]

Lance lost about 10-12 pounds...

Maybe you should have testified for Armstrong at the SCA arbitration since Armstrong's side was not able to show any significant weight loss. Maybe you should have informed Coyle that his data was wrong. Or maybe you could post a source for the crap you spew with such certainty.

 

[stephens]

Judging weight from pictures is very hard. But fwiw, i saw Lance in person at TOC and even in February he didn't look heavy to me. From upper body I'd guess he'd be close to my own weight of 68kg, but then when I remember his legs are much more muscular than mine, and so even though he's 4cm shorter, I can see him weighing maybe 160 (73kg). But he certainly doesn't look "huge".

 

[Captain Kirk]

The fact is most of us started out as Lance supporters but through his behaviour, actions and failure to accept the slightest bit of criticism or natural analysis, he turned many people including LeMond into enemies.

Got to be THE quote of the thread, if not THE fact that can be proven.

On the 7th day (read Victory) the Human Logo said,

"believe the dream"

....the trick was...we believed the dream, it was our dream to be a Tour rider - the Human Logo had skillfully merged his fable into our own dreams.

Now the dream becomes a dusty myth and King (Logo) is upset, why don't the people believe any more?

This is treason, send in the Kings men....control the media and hang the dissenters...

Is this why we hate the comeback? The discredited Dictator is attempting to be reinstalled into power?

 

[krebs303]

I was looking at the title of this thread. How long has it been since someone mentioned Greg LeMond in this thread. Mea culpa. Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa.

 

[Anonymous]

I am not questioning Coyle's raw data, just the methods he used to reach his conclusions. I think Grissom would welcome the critical thinking. I am surprised that you have written all of Coyle's work off as untrustworthy because of a couple of wonky calculations. You don't apply the same thought processes to a Mr. Armstrong.

Gris would tell you that you'd get eaten alive on the witness stand trying to use data from a study you had so discredited and you'd have no credibility with the jury.

He'd simply send you out to get the data from a better source.

You're saying his conclusions are wrong, using his data, but you conclusions are correct using the same data.

For the sake of what were talking about there's problems with time of year and training stage. Not to mention the questionable relevance of any figures from August 1997 which would have been only 10 months out from is diagnosis of cancer and who knows how many months out from chemo. not many I'd guess.

Somehow i don't think you'd dare prepare a paper proposing lance did not weigh less as a racer than before his cancer using this study for data.
Given what you've told me of your credentials I think your peers would be less than thrilled.

btw I'm still wading my way through the criticisms of Coyle and his rebuttle to them.
Care to help me? In private messages maybe?.

 

[Not Riding Enough]

I was looking at the title of this thread. How long has it been since someone mentioned Greg LeMond in this thread. Mea culpa. Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa.

I liked his first yellow jersey story. To match the colour of his first bike and he apparently knew nothing of the TDF.

It doesn't all need to be about doping but obviously that his the focus of the talk. Good on him for standing up for what he believes in and offering some solutions rather than just being negative. At least he is not walking away from it, ignoring it or just saying it is all too hard to fix.

 

[BigBoat]

Maybe you should have testified for Armstrong at the SCA arbitration since Armstrong's side was not able to show any significant weight loss. Maybe you should have informed Coyle that his data was wrong. Or maybe you could post a source for the crap you spew with such certainty.

Oh sorry bro... Woke up on the wrong side of the bed? LOL

 

[elapid]

Judging weight from pictures is very hard. But fwiw, i saw Lance in person at TOC and even in February he didn't look heavy to me. From upper body I'd guess he'd be close to my own weight of 68kg, but then when I remember his legs are much more muscular than mine, and so even though he's 4cm shorter, I can see him weighing maybe 160 (73kg). But he certainly doesn't look "huge".

I read somewhere that Lance testified at the SCA trial that he never weighed 72 kg, even at his lightest during the TdF, despite what he stated in his book. He probably raced somewhere around 74-75 kg.

 

[TRDean]

What the heck...

I just go a nice private message from a mister jackhammer111...what a joke. Sends me a private message to tell me what a sorry person I am for calling him out regarding using a personal tragedy to help make his argument. All I have to say is that if you can't criticize on the open forum I have no time for you. Nothing ****es me off more than internet toughs!! Loosers all of them. If you want to discuss the merits of an argument do it on the open forum...not in my personal box!!!!!

This forum is degrading into a freakin joke.

 

[whiteboytrash]

This forum is degrading into a freakin joke.

Most here would take that as a compliment.

 

[Not Riding Enough]

I read somewhere that Lance testified at the SCA trial that he never weighed 72 kg, even at his lightest during the TdF, despite what he stated in his book. He probably raced somewhere around 74-75 kg.

In the Dr. Michael Ashenden interview that was posted on another thread:

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

 

[Anonymous]

I just go a nice private message from a mister jackhammer111...what a joke. Sends me a private message to tell me what a sorry person I am for calling him out regarding using a personal tragedy to help make his argument. All I have to say is that if you can't criticize on the open forum I have no time for you. Nothing ****es me off more than internet toughs!! Loosers all of them. If you want to discuss the merits of an argument do it on the open forum...not in my personal box!!!!!

This forum is degrading into a freakin joke.

i just didn't think the readers would be interested in my response to your cruelty.
it had nothing to do with the merits of an argument. simply a response to your personal hurtfulness and inexcusable insensitvity. i don't know you from adam and have no idea why feel the need for such meaness.
but since you insist here's what i wrote.

====
you heartless *******.
"i'm sorry for your loss but here.. let me twist the knife for you."
i take it that your response to a tragedy is to sleep like a baby.
right now i'm very very glad not to be you.
====

that's all of what triggered another round of hurt from you.

then you go on to ask where in ohio i live, and that you have reletives in columbus and that maybe we should meet.

you're calling me out? over what? the heartless ******* comment? that's one i'd have no trouble making to your face.
yes, i live in westerville, right close to columbus.
but i'd think twice about making your origional comments to my face.

to the rest of you. i swear, i did not in any way threaten this person. i have to idea what he wants to settle with me in person.

i'm personally embarrassed in bringing this public.
i don't think it was right for him to pass judgement on me for being online after midnight the day after a tragedy. i tried to tell him so in private.
thanks to those that messaged me support and those that cut me some slack when i overreacted to a post that cut too close to home the other night.

 

[TRDean]

Hammer...I in no way insulted you or added to your hurt. Get over it. I also was not the only one to make note of your argumentive tactics. Just like now, coming on here and acting all "hurt". I have taken more **** on this board today to fill a transfer truck. I like your selective posting on here too...you didn't post my comments to you that I was and am sorry for your loss. Why not? Really dude, my comments were not that bad. Anyone who comes on these boards and flaunts or talks about a personal tragedy to help strengthen their argument should expect some comments back. One thing I have learned on these boards is that you can't express your opinion and expect people to argue constructively without attacking.

Let me say this...I am sorry for your loss...however, I am not going to let you make me out as some cruel heartless ***!! I believe I have told you that 3 times now...enough? And yes I did call you out...no doubt...probably not the best thing as you are obviously much tougher than I.

Let me ask you this...did you come to this forum for sympathy? You noted that many people contacted you with their well wishes...just curious why the loss of your friend became public on this forum in the first place.

 

[SpeedWay]

I just go a nice private message from a mister jackhammer111...what a joke. Sends me a private message to tell me what a sorry person I am for calling him out regarding using a personal tragedy to help make his argument. All I have to say is that if you can't criticize on the open forum I have no time for you. Nothing ****es me off more than internet toughs!! Loosers all of them. If you want to discuss the merits of an argument do it on the open forum...not in my personal box!!!!!

This forum is degrading into a freakin joke.

What's the joke? That you thought there was really something as a PRIVATE message? Jokes on and by you. At least you get the "degrading" part.

 

[BroDeal]

Oh sorry bro... Woke up on the wrong side of the bed? LOL

What I am referring to is your continual statement of "facts" that have no source, and the statements are made with a forceful assertion as though they are absolutely true. We have been arguing over Armstrong's weight using the Coyle paper and referring to the SCA arbitration as data. You come in, like you yourself weighed Armstrong, and forcefully claim that Armstrong lost 10 - 12 pounds. Where is your source? You do this continually with claims abou what drugs specific riders are using, what power they are outputting, etc. It looks to me that you just make this sh!t up and expect everyone to believe it because you state it as though it were a known fact.

Here is what Ashenden said about Armstrong's weight, "Now, interestingly enough, during the proceedings, not just the allegation of misconduct but in the arbitration hearing itself, when people are sworn under oath, even Lance Armstrong himself acknowledged that his body weight had never dropped to 72 kg."

Now what data are you using to contradict Armstrong's own admissions about his weight?

 

[schadenfreude]

This forum is a freakin joke.

corrected.

 

[BroDeal]

I just go a nice private message from a mister jackhammer111...what a joke. Sends me a private message to tell me what a sorry person I am for calling him out regarding using a personal tragedy to help make his argument. All I have to say is that if you can't criticize on the open forum I have no time for you. Nothing ****es me off more than internet toughs!! Loosers all of them. If you want to discuss the merits of an argument do it on the open forum...not in my personal box!!!!!

Bro, this guy PMed me offering to fight me if I would come to Ohio. He is a nutter.

A couple days ago he tried the same sad tactic of using his girlfriend's sister's cousin's barber's nephew's cancer to construct a strawman unrelated to what we were discussing; and then when he was called on it, he goes postal saying I am a heartless SOB for seeing through his pathetic attempt to divert the issue.

 

[Anonymous]

Hammer...I in no way insulted you or added to your hurt. Get over it. I also was not the only one to make note of your argumentive tactics. Just like now, coming on here and acting all "hurt". I have taken more **** on this board today to fill a transfer truck. I like your selective posting on here too...you didn't post my comments to you that I was and am sorry for your loss. Why not? Really dude, my comments were not that bad. Anyone who comes on these boards and flaunts or talks about a personal tragedy to help strengthen their argument should expect some comments back. One thing I have learned on these boards is that you can't express your opinion and expect people to argue constructively without attacking.

Let me say this...I am sorry for your loss...however, I am not going to let you make me out as some cruel heartless ***!! I believe I have told you that 3 times now...enough? And yes I did call you out...no doubt...probably not the best thing as you are obviously much tougher than I.

Let me ask you this...did you come to this forum for sympathy? You noted that many people contacted you with their well wishes...just curious why the loss of your friend became public on this forum in the first place.

Again, i don't think we should be boring the public with this.
But since you insist, i will answer your question.

I mentioned something in a post among other things, about believing lance is sincere in his cancer cause, and added a ps that asked people to please restrain just this one time from bashing lance concerning his cause as I’d just had a loss.

I reacted badly the next night when someone wrote something about thinking lances weight loss due to cancer was a "myth". It hit too close to home. I was trembling and crying as I wrote, as I am now, remembering what I’ve recently seen. It was wrong, I shouldn't have.

Then came you with "but you can't be too upset as it looks like you have been on the board all night!!”.

And now you say you in no way insulted me or added to my hurt.

You did both.

 

[TRDean]

Well then I guess I did...suck it up nutjob.

 

[Anonymous]

Bro, this guy PMed me offering to fight me if I would come to Ohio. He is a nutter.

A couple days ago he tried the same sad tactic of using his girlfriend's sister's cousin's barber's nephew's cancer to construct a strawman unrelated to what we were discussing; and then when he was called on it, he goes postal saying I am a heartless SOB for seeing through his pathetic attempt to divert the issue.

you never miss a chance to pile on do you.

but i have told you before that any attack from you will never ever go unanswered.

i just admitted that i was wrong in reacting the way i did to your post about the myth of lances weight loss due to cancer. but given my state of mind and my very real hatred of you, it seemed reasonable at the time.

my offer to you stands, more than ever.

and i know i'm not the only one who has called you out so don't you don't get to portray me as some lone nutjob that unfairly has it in for you.