Speech by Greg Lemond

[BigBoat]

While I'll admit not having the mods step in and censor the forum is great... Its divulged into some pointless references that keeps people (like me) away from wanting to attempt real discussions.

I like Lemond and I think he was clean. In the 1980s as Donotti (Sandro did I spell donatti right anyone??) pointed out epo at the top level had not really got going. It was indeed still possible to beat doped riders because all dopers really had then was corticoids, HGH and stimulants which didnt directly increase power.

Lemond is trying here to point out (along with Donatti and some others) that drugs are far bigger than governing bodies whether sporting bodies or UN sponsored anti- drug organizations claim. Its a really sad battle that they cannot possibly win. All the legal lawsuits are far more difficult to overcome than it would be to just accept the fact that all the top riders are jacked through the roof and all you can do is laugh at them for being lab rats and move on. Some of the stats they have (like on the coke trade) is incredibly insightful though, and its amazing that their are actually people keeping track of just how much cocaine we have in the world.

I honestly wish all riders were on SRM equiped bikes controlled by the bodies like ASO, and performance values could be compared from week to week to truly see the power of the riders and see the difference blood "refills" make and then try to pinpoint exactly when people start doping or have to stop doping. This wont happen though and I think it has not only to do with corruption but lack of insight and intelligence amongst the majority of fans and the media. The average "Livestrong" supporter just isnt very bright. LOL

Oh yeah, and that guy David Walsh being labeled as a "troll" and tabloid journalist.... With that going on do anti dopers actually think they can win? LOL not gonna happen...

 

[SpeedWay]

Actually, dude, I have been on the net a long time, before the WWW even existed and people used Usenet for discussion.

If only it could've been ARAPANET, we would have all been impressed.
but they would never have played any reindeer games with you like the one hit wonders do here

 

[Anonymous]

Maybe what cycling needs right now is some purist anti-doping cycling fan that also happens to be a gazzionare to hire a bunch of private investigators to find out what's going on. Watch some of these guys every single move for weeks or months on end.

Or investigative writers in the mainstream press to do there thing.

I'm thinking of the guys that wrote the Balco stuff for the San Fransisco Chronicle on Barry Bonds. That kind of thing.

And I'm not talking about digging into the distant past but right now.

And what about police or other authorities? Giving someone a blood transfusion in a hotel room can't be legal can it? Practicing medicine without a license?

Someone of means should travel Europe, stay in the same hotels, wander the halls and lobbies, bribe the staff, take pictues, follow people, go all James Bond on them. And you'd get to see the great races. I don't think the riders can expect much privacy during races can they? I even read about a guy getting fired for having sex between stages of a race. It was in his contract. No sex during races. well, not actually during...

 

[ElChingon]

If only it could've been ARAPANET, we would have all been impressed.
but they would never have played any reindeer games with you like the one hit wonders do here

Before that people would gather and talk face to face about these things

 

[BigBoat]

Maybe what cycling needs right now is some purist anti-doping cycling fan that also happens to be a gazzionare to hire a bunch of private investigators to find out what's going on. Watch some of these guys every single move for weeks or months on end.

Or investigative writers in the mainstream press to do there thing.

I'm thinking of the guys that wrote the Balco stuff for the San Fransisco Chronicle on Barry Bonds. That kind of thing.

And I'm not talking about digging into the distant past but right now.

And what about police or other authorities? Giving someone a blood transfusion in a hotel room can't be legal can it? Practicing medicine without a license?

Someone of means should travel Europe, stay in the same hotels, wander the halls and lobbies, bribe the staff, take pictues, follow people, go all James Bond on them. And you'd get to see the great races. I don't think the riders can expect much privacy during races can they? I even read about a guy getting fired for having sex between stages of a race. It was in his contract. No sex during races. well, not actually during...

Manzano was fired for "that," having sex during the race... But it wasnt because of that. It was bogus excuse because he was angry at the team or something.

Each rider could have two 24 hour gendarmes with a camera to them during the Tour. 400 cops. But even then you'd have to track power files week to week as well. It would be very tough. This is such an extreme that it would never happen and doping will just continue forever. I honestly believe they will not stop it, especially with gene doping now too.

 

[Anonymous]

Manzano was fired for "that," having sex during the race... But it wasnt because of that. It was bogus excuse because he was angry at the team or something.

Each rider could have two 24 hour gendarmes with a camera to them during the Tour. 400 cops. But even then you'd have to track power files week to week as well. It would be very tough. This is such an extreme that it would never happen and doping will just continue forever. I honestly believe they will not stop it, especially with gene doping now too.

But it's true, it's in their contracts?

About power files... i just posted a bunch of questions about that over on the "Using Power to detect doping" thread.

Do you think that is less complicated than I do?

Has anyone been caught "gene doping" or is it just your opinion that its' going on.

Given what you believe. You will still watch?

 

[BigBoat]

But it's true, it's in their contracts?

About power files... i just posted a bunch of questions about that over on the "Using Power to detect doping" thread.

Do you think that is less complicated than I do?

Has anyone been caught "gene doping" or is it just your opinion that its' going on.

Given what you believe. You will still watch?

I like to follow whats going on. Its interesting. Gene doping must be going on, Ferrari sure the hell is interested in it. Why wouldnt he be?

 

[ElChingon]

I like to follow whats going on. Its interesting. Gene doping must be going on, Ferrari sure the hell is interested in it. Why wouldnt he be?

Yes, I know of some who are working on some of this, and they have stated they will introduce markers but as we know with enough "funding" an alternative without the marker can be accessed or produced.

Hold on let me find it.

 

[ElChingon]

Here it is, they have doping concerns with it as well:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25949447/

But I think its a weak concern if there is enough alternative funding to not have the markers.

Here's another more official announcement of it:

http://www.hhmi.org/research/investigators/evans.html

I've seen these two guys

Famous last words:

Evans noted the drugs might prove irresistible for professional athletes who seek an illegal edge. He said his team has developed detection tests for use by the World Anti-Doping Agency. Evans said he has no financial interest in either drug or the test.

 

[Anonymous]

Here it is, they have doping concerns with it as well:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25949447/

But I think its a weak concern if there is enough alternative funding to not have the markers.

Here's another more official announcement of it:

http://www.hhmi.org/research/investigators/evans.html

This is a drug, they've already devised the test for it. I don't see anything about gene therapy.

 

[davidg]

I've seen these two guys

Isn't this LA in 1993 and 1999?

 

[krebs303]

Isn't this LA in 1993 and 1999?

If it looks like a rat and pedals like a rat it must be a rat. lol

 

[hulkgogan]

If it looks like a rat and pedals like a rat it must be a rat. lol

Don't forget squeaks like a rat.

 

[BigBoat]

I just think the doping their doing at the very top is not known to exist and is very foreign even to their competitors. Lance had a good advantage in his day over more talented riders than he.

 

[Anonymous]

I just think the doping their doing at the very top is not known to exist and is very foreign even to their competitors. Lance had a good advantage in his day over more talented riders than he.

Sometimes I think you are like the worst cycling fan EVER!

 

[tifosa]

No worse a fan than I - he just has a lot more posts an a way higher word count.

 

[BigBoat]

Sometimes I think you are like the worst cycling fan EVER!

I (along with Lemond and Hinault) believe the Tour is DEAD and we are giving mouth to mouth to a dead body. LOL

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I'm not going to post the links for the umpeenth time, but German coach Thomas Springsteen is known to have very likely purchased and used Repoxygen on his athletes, and that Repoxygen was used by XC skiers in the Torino Olympics. Stem-cell gene doping was offered for sale at the Beijing Olympics. I've posted other links in the past as well.

I see no reason to believe that Repoxygen, and stem-cell gene doping hasn't been attempted to be used in athletics. Not just cycling, athletics. All logic indicates, just like all other performance enhancing drugs in the past, it will be coveted, and used.

I also have little faith that any gene doping products of today that leak out of trials and into athletics are drugs made with detectable markers.

Actually, I think BigBoat is about as true of fan of the sport as there is, he's just connected enough, and knowledgeable enough, that he can't look at it with blinders on and pretend there isn't a problem, when he knows there is.

Yes, pretty much agree with Hinault, etc. There's a huge problem with the sport when we wait until the doping controls are passed before accepting the winners. And the wide perception is even those that win and get past that are assumed by many to likely be getting away with doping.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not going to post the links for the umpeenth time, but German coach Thomas Springsteen is known to have very likely purchased and used Repoxygen on his athletes, and that Repoxygen was used by XC skiers in the Torino Olympics. Stem-cell gene doping was offered for sale at the Beijing Olympics. I've posted other links in the past as well.

I see no reason to believe that Repoxygen, and stem-cell gene doping hasn't been attempted to be used in athletics. Not just cycling, athletics. All logic indicates, just like all other performance enhancing drugs in the past, it will be coveted, and used.

I also have little faith that any gene doping products of today that leak out of trials and into athletics are drugs made with detectable markers.

Actually, I think BigBoat is about as true of fan of the sport as there is, he's just connected enough, and knowledgeable enough, that he can't look at it with blinders on and pretend there isn't a problem, when he knows there is.

Yes, pretty much agree with Hinault, etc. There's a huge problem with the sport when we wait until the doping controls are passed before accepting the winners. And the wide perception is even those that win and get past that are assumed by many to likely be getting away with doping.

ok.. point taken it has happened. No indication that it's widespread or common in any sport though is there?

I don't imagine this stuff would be as easy to come by as epo or cera that was available in about every pharmacy in the world.
It's a dark and cynical view some of you have and it seems to discount the possibility people just as smart or smarter than you can do anything to clean up the sport.

Still, for all the talk lemond does, his solution seem to be unworkable and gets no real traction. it appears that even here most people have quit defending it in any real way.

 

[rhubroma]

I'm not going to post the links for the umpeenth time, but German coach Thomas Springsteen is known to have very likely purchased and used Repoxygen on his athletes, and that Repoxygen was used by XC skiers in the Torino Olympics. Stem-cell gene doping was offered for sale at the Beijing Olympics. I've posted other links in the past as well.

I see no reason to believe that Repoxygen, and stem-cell gene doping hasn't been attempted to be used in athletics. Not just cycling, athletics. All logic indicates, just like all other performance enhancing drugs in the past, it will be coveted, and used.

I also have little faith that any gene doping products of today that leak out of trials and into athletics are drugs made with detectable markers.

Actually, I think BigBoat is about as true of fan of the sport as there is, he's just connected enough, and knowledgeable enough, that he can't look at it with blinders on and pretend there isn't a problem, when he knows there is.

Yes, pretty much agree with Hinault, etc. There's a huge problem with the sport when we wait until the doping controls are passed before accepting the winners. And the wide perception is even those that win and get past that are assumed by many to likely be getting away with doping.

Agreed 100%. Unfortunately the quest to get an edge, by any licet or ilicet means, is part of the human condition. I have written before on this forum about so called doping culture and how the perfecton scientifically of athletic preparation (training, materials and doping) have taken all the romance out of sport, for example with respect to how sport (and not just cycling) was in the 80's. And I really believe that it is this perfection, which has ruined sport, so that we don't get real athletes anymore, but scientifically enigineered automatons.

And I don't mean of course that sport was any cleaner then, in the sense that doping was rampent, but that it was not the super advanced stuff which began to change the face of sport when taking hold of it in the 90's. In other words, the doping pre 90's did not change who the champions were, cause it was not the scientifically advanced stuff out on the markets today which has. And that's another thing. The market, which along with science, is killing sport. Athletes are paid far too much money then their real contribution to society warrents. In fact, I would say that athletes because of doping and the market, represent how afflicted our society is with greed and a quest for success and thus are an image of every sign of ethical decay, which, along with Wall Street, has brought us down to the lowly cultural level we exist at today as is plain to see for anyone with a critical set of eyes.

Hinault is right: the Tour is dead, and it is this perfection and the market which has killed it. And we are therefore left to watch a grotesque spectacle put on by inhuman automatons, who are no longer athletes, but products of the corporate market and cheered on by tifosi that have consumed a product, not an event, but a market product which is no more real these days than the virtual Holywood special effects ones sees at the cinema.

 

[krebs303]

And we are therefore left to watch a grotesque spectacle put on by inhuman automatons, who are no longer athletes, but products of the corporate market and cheered on by tifosi that have consumed a product, not an event, but a market product which is no more real these days About a market product which is no more real these days than the virtual Hollywood special effects ones sees at the cinema.

Made me think of "Rollerball"

 

[Escarabajo]

Athletes are paid far too much money then their real contribution to society warrents. In fact, I would say that athletes because of doping and the market, represent how afflicted our society is with greed and a quest for success and thus are an image of every sign of ethical decay, which, along with Wall Street, has brought us down to the lowly cultural level we exist at today as is plain to see for anyone with a critical set of eyes.

Agreed.

I have said this before. These athletes seems to be the product of our actual society needs.

 

[Eva Maria]

Still, for all the talk lemond does, his solution seem to be unworkable and gets no real traction. it appears that even here most people have quit defending it in any real way.

Which solution, using power as a measurement for doping?

Columbia has been using it as part of their internal program for almost 3 years and Garmin for the last 18 months.

 

[Anonymous]

Which solution, using power as a measurement for doping?

Columbia has been using it as part of their internal program for almost 3 years and Garmin for the last 18 months.

sounds cool. great idea. if the team wants to do that more power to them. if it helps them keep cheaters off of their teams great. i'm sure the conditions of their employment are spelled out in their contract.

to have the governing body do that to the entire sport is an entirely different matter.

i'm trying keep a discussion about lemond's idea in the "Using Power to detect doping" thread. i've asked a lot of questions about the practical aspects of it with only modest response.

 

[Anonymous]

Agreed 100%. Unfortunately the quest to get an edge, by any licet or ilicet means, is part of the human condition. I have written before on this forum about so called doping culture and how the perfecton scientifically of athletic preparation (training, materials and doping) have taken all the romance out of sport, for example with respect to how sport (and not just cycling) was in the 80's. And I really believe that it is this perfection, which has ruined sport, so that we don't get real athletes anymore, but scientifically enigineered automatons.

And I don't mean of course that sport was any cleaner then, in the sense that doping was rampent, but that it was not the super advanced stuff which began to change the face of sport when taking hold of it in the 90's. In other words, the doping pre 90's did not change who the champions were, cause it was not the scientifically advanced stuff out on the markets today which has. And that's another thing. The market, which along with science, is killing sport. Athletes are paid far too much money then their real contribution to society warrents. In fact, I would say that athletes because of doping and the market, represent how afflicted our society is with greed and a quest for success and thus are an image of every sign of ethical decay, which, along with Wall Street, has brought us down to the lowly cultural level we exist at today as is plain to see for anyone with a critical set of eyes.

Hinault is right: the Tour is dead, and it is this perfection and the market which has killed it. And we are therefore left to watch a grotesque spectacle put on by inhuman automatons, who are no longer athletes, but products of the corporate market and cheered on by tifosi that have consumed a product, not an event, but a market product which is no more real these days than the virtual Holywood special effects ones sees at the cinema.

"represent how afflicted our society is with greed and a quest for success and thus are an image of every sign of ethical decay," blah blah blah...

the world isn't just going to hell in a hand basket, it's always been going to hell in a hand basket.

You can't find me an era since the invention of language that people didn't say that about their own time. it's usless tripe and serves no fucntion other than the self aggrandizement of the writer. tisk tisk tisk, isn't it a shame, nothing can be done really, not like back in my day.. what utter bunk.

I'm going to assume that there's plenty of people out there that are just as smart if not smarter than you are, and no less moral, and they want the sport they are passionate about to be clean. and they are doing more than just sitting around wagging their finger.

i've heard the money arguments in american sports too.
my opinion? if the money is there, the performers should get as much of it as they can. it's strictly a management/labor issue. when team owners start driving beat up cars and shopping at walmart,wake me up.

Hinault is the same way. all condemnation and no answers.

there's been a lot done in the last couple of years. i think this next week will be interesting to say the least.