Stage 16: Pinzolo – Aprica 177 kms: Clinic version

[Ryo Hazuki]

Re: Re:

the A-team is the group of climbers that destroyed the peloton on friggin' cobblestones last year

So the A-Team consists of 2 riders

boom, fuglsang, westra and nibali are 2 riders?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Re:

Astana didn't go berserk? Which race are you watching???

learn to f'n read. AFTER the restday

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Re:

No one's saying this Giro is especially hard on paper (for historical Giro standards). People are saying it's being raced particularly hard.

the averages in this giro aren't fast at all.

 

[Miburo]

Re: Re:

No one's saying this Giro is especially hard on paper (for historical Giro standards). People are saying it's being raced particularly hard.

the averages in this giro aren't fast at all.

Contador said today giro 2011 was still harder than this one.

 

[Von Mises]

Re: Re:

But how do they know that it is raced particularly hard? What is hard?

We know from watching the race, the speed and crashes, the number of attacks, and from what the riders are saying which verifies all the above.

"Watching the race" belongs to same category as "watching the jawline to detect doping" or "watching the earth to detect that earth is flat."

Btw, I am not actually saying that this race has been easy. I am just trying to say that we do not have verifiable and comparable data to say that this race has been harder or easier than some other editions.

Easy or hard is not my point. I am asking why did people discover hardness of the race after Mortirolo numbers came in? Some (not you ) said in this forum even during Mortirolo that Contador is breaking records - didnt they know that race has been particularly hard, didnt they watch the race? Sorry, but in this context all this talk about hardness sounds like excuse...

 

[Eagle]

Re: Re:

the A-team is the group of climbers that destroyed the peloton on friggin' cobblestones last year

So the A-Team consists of 2 riders

boom, fuglsang, westra and nibali are 2 riders?

Boom and Westra are climbers?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Re: Re:

Astana didn't go berserk? Which race are you watching???

They lead peloton about 7 kms, but when Mortirolo started all their domestiques dropped like stones. Indeed, its is totally unbelievable. Total berserk.

Because they went berserk on the flat!!

for 7 km?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Re: Re:

the A-team is the group of climbers that destroyed the peloton on friggin' cobblestones last year

So the A-Team consists of 2 riders

boom, fuglsang, westra and nibali are 2 riders?

Boom and Westra are climbers?

who said anything about climbers?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Re: Re:

No one's saying this Giro is especially hard on paper (for historical Giro standards). People are saying it's being raced particularly hard.

the averages in this giro aren't fast at all.

Contador said today giro 2011 was still harder than this one.

because contadors level is far lower than in 2011

 

[Eagle]

Re: Re:

the A-team is the group of climbers that destroyed the peloton on friggin' cobblestones last year

So the A-Team consists of 2 riders

boom, fuglsang, westra and nibali are 2 riders?

Boom and Westra are climbers?

who said anything about climbers?

zlev11

 

[Tonton]

Stage 16 Clinic version:
Act I: The day started well for Tinkov-Saxo: Oleg bought LRP's RV for dirt cheap, including the fridge and a set of marginal gains wheels left on the side of the bed. The RV was sent to Ferrara for "repairs" and the wheels were put on Bertie's bike.
Act II: Coup de theatre! Just like poor LRP a few days earlier, Bertie punctures. Basso gives him a wheel and a nude picture of his sister.
Act III: Bertie is struggling: after 10 miles of mad pursuit, he can't reduce the 50 second deficit. Oleg understands that his motivational skills are needed to help Bertie catch Aru. He gives a few phone calls on a secure line.
Act IV: In his earpiece, Bertie hears Oleg's voice: "Bertie, your Mama is on the phone". That is when Bertie listens to his kidnapped mother being threatened by some Russian thugs. Oleg interrupts the call and tells Bertie that he has 10 minutes to catch the Astana boys before Mrs. Contador gets julienned.
Act V: That's when Bertie decided to take a sip of the right drink (Acqua Pantani) at the right time and turns mutant.
That's the REAL story of stage 16 .

 

[Happy dude]

Re: Re:

No one's saying this Giro is especially hard on paper (for historical Giro standards). People are saying it's being raced particularly hard.

the averages in this giro aren't fast at all.

Contador said today giro 2011 was still harder than this one.

because contadors level is far lower than in 2011

Does that suggest he's not doping as much?

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

No one's saying this Giro is especially hard on paper (for historical Giro standards). People are saying it's being raced particularly hard.

the averages in this giro aren't fast at all.

https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/603668341572694017

 

[BigMac]

Re: Re:

Astana didn't go berserk? Which race are you watching???

learn to f'n read. AFTER the restday

the A-team is the group of climbers that destroyed the peloton on friggin' cobblestones last year

So the A-Team consists of 2 riders

boom, fuglsang, westra and nibali are 2 riders?

Boom and Westra are climbers?

who said anything about climbers?

Oh, the irony. It's just too much.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Well done hrotha and BigMac! Haven't seen someone dispatched that ruthlessly since The Mountain took out The Viper in Season 4, Episode 8!

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

"Watching the race" belongs to same category as "watching the jawline to detect doping" or "watching the earth to detect that earth is flat."

No, watching the race you can see rider fatigue in body language, results, # of crashes, etc. It is nothing like the absurdity of the jawline doping nonsense. I guess having been a bike racer for some years it's fairly obvious to me when people are tired or more tired than usual. The riders can read the race, and to a great extent viewers can see things in HD which are fairly apparent.

Btw, I am not actually saying that this race has been easy. I am just trying to say that we do not have verifiable and comparable data to say that this race has been harder or easier than some other editions.

No, we don't. That doesn't mean that it isn't visibly harder. And that riders and DS's have confirmed this has been a hard edition many, many times.

EDIT: Whoops. We do. Thanks Hrotha.

https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/603668341572694017

Not that average speeds tell anywhere near the whole story. There is of course terrain, weather, tactics, and so on. But looks like one metric points to it being pretty hard.

Easy or hard is not my point. I am asking why did people discover hardness of the race after Mortirolo numbers came in? Some (not you ) said in this forum even during Mortirolo that Contador is breaking records - didnt they know that race has been particularly hard, didnt they watch the race? Sorry, but in this context all this talk about hardness sounds like excuse...

Can't speak to any of that. Excuse for what? I guess I'm losing the thread here.

 

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

I've seen a lot of unbelievable cr*p in the last few years. Stage 16 was not in that category. It was actually perfectly believable (now be clear, it doesn't follow that I'm asserting that everyone is clean). I was expecting Aru to unleash the post-rest day music from an Astana dominated select group doing crazy things up a crazy climb. What we got was a general hammering - riders all over the shop, with vampire eyes and empty legs. Quite human. And it is hardly unusual in the history of the sport to have a relatively unknown, but clearly talented Basque climber take the spoils on those epic days. If he was wearing the orange of Euskaltel no one would raise an eyebrow. Add in the watt numbers and times.....conclusion: it don't look alien. It surely is, but it don't look it.

My commentary was based on having watched most of the 16 stages, and seeing riding that doesn't look in the least bit clean.

Sure - I have no issues with that. The thread is specifically about stage 16 though.

Though on reflection, some of the early stuff does seem more plausible now - Tinkoff looked pretty dodgy riding that hard in the first week. But look at them now: they're all (bar one) absolutely cooked. Kreuzigar as last teammate standing was done before they even got to the climb.

 

[The Hegelian]

Counter intuitively, I reckon the most suss thing on that stage was Aru's performance. He said himself that he could have lost 20 mins - he really did crack with a lot of tough riding left. Lost his form pretty early on the climb, well before AC got to him.

It was a very gutsy ride to keep grinding it out and limiting the damage to only two and half minutes. But not very **believable**.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

No one's saying this Giro is especially hard on paper (for historical Giro standards). People are saying it's being raced particularly hard.

the averages in this giro aren't fast at all.

https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/603668341572694017

SMH. Fancy being told to learn to read by someone who can't do numbers yet. Laughable.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Re: Re:

I've seen a lot of unbelievable cr*p in the last few years. Stage 16 was not in that category. It was actually perfectly believable (now be clear, it doesn't follow that I'm asserting that everyone is clean). I was expecting Aru to unleash the post-rest day music from an Astana dominated select group doing crazy things up a crazy climb. What we got was a general hammering - riders all over the shop, with vampire eyes and empty legs. Quite human. And it is hardly unusual in the history of the sport to have a relatively unknown, but clearly talented Basque climber take the spoils on those epic days. If he was wearing the orange of Euskaltel no one would raise an eyebrow. Add in the watt numbers and times.....conclusion: it don't look alien. It surely is, but it don't look it.

My commentary was based on having watched most of the 16 stages, and seeing riding that doesn't look in the least bit clean.

Sure - I have no issues with that. The thread is specifically about stage 16 though.

Though on reflection, some of the early stuff does seem more plausible now - Tinkoff looked pretty dodgy riding that hard in the first week. But look at them now: they're all (bar one) absolutely cooked. Kreuzigar as last teammate standing was done before they even got to the climb.

The thread is about creating stage threads in The Clinic, because the obviousness of the doping that is happening warrants such things. Stage 16 was just the first time I decided to be snarky about it.

But looking at Astana in particular, one can only be morosely bemused at the impotence of the new and improved UCI.

There's clean, and there's "cleans," and a world of difference between the two.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Re: Re:

No one's saying this Giro is especially hard on paper (for historical Giro standards). People are saying it's being raced particularly hard.

the averages in this giro aren't fast at all.

This is just a really stupid post when you read what the actual guys riding the race are saying:

"Even Tom Boonen, who's definitely been around a bit, remarked that the speed of this Giro was beyond anything he had witnessed.

'It's been very difficult," Boonen said in Het Laatste Nieuws. "We really do need rest, because this is the most extreme thing I've experienced in a Grand Tour.'"

http://www.crankpunk.com/blogs/crankpunk/item/862-giant-alpecin-s-head-coach-kenma-says-astana-power-is-evidence-of-a-peloton-a-deux-vitesses.html

 

[Jagartrott]

"There is a split in the peloton" said Kemna. "In addition... holes [are] provided for those who seek to slip through the mesh of the net. I can not prove it, but that is the feeling that comes over me."

--> Holes are provided - by whom?