Stage 16: Pinzolo – Aprica 177 kms: Clinic version

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Re: Re:

ggusta said:
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
T_S_A_R said:
T_S_A_R said:
I disagree. I think Contador could have dropped him fairly easy if he had to. If today's effort was Contador's max level he would be as well not turning up to the Tour.

Landa has made a jump but it's a jump we have seen many times before.
Only one of the top 6 GC riders is at this Giro.

Without Nibali, Froome, Valverde, Purito and Quintana it is a second class field.
And yet this field has the No 1, 7, 8, whatever.... Wouldn´t call that "2nd class". For me that sounds world class when the best 10-something of the best in the world battle it out.
And how do you judge JRod or Valv-Piti above some of the guys taking part at this Giro? Enlighten me. We don´t know for example how Landa would go against JRod in a GT if unleashed...
So basically your "T-6" comes down to coffee cup reading...

long meandering post....

AC had chased his butt off up a mountain by the time he got to Landa, I think AC may test himself just for the purposes of checking himself only on Saturday on a stage where it lays out a little more neatly, barring punctures, etc.

But Astana imo has gone quite a bit beyond pushing the envelope, imo. That's just to my eye. What do I know!? ESPN showed the 30 for 30 of Ben Johnson and the Seoul Olympics last night, 9.79 (Johnson's speed in 100m) and the travails of like 6 or 7 of the other sprinters in the same final who all were later busted over the years for PED related offenses, including Johnson for a 2nd time and a lifetime ban. Johnson in Seoul had basically gone full genius on ped's in the prior couple years leading up to it. Sounds like Astana to me. Can they at least look tired after racing up a mountain??? Reminds of an American I saw in a fil called Stop at Nothing where he attacked and never seemed gassed...

I am really not out to disparage cycling, I love it, but I often wonder why all race threads don't end up precisely here, in the clinic. You can't talk about Tennis without dope, Track and field, Football (any flavor), baseball, anywhere where people are getting WELL paid is rife with ped abuse. That's the world we live in, cycling somehow is the poster child which to me is hypocrisy at its finest. And truly a shame, because of its beauty. I can go on and on and on, and usually do.

But the rules are no dope talk outside of here and 'dem's da roolz'. Whatever. Their board, their rules. I just find it silly.
Great post!!
 
Re:

Dekker_Tifosi said:
Kruijswijk said in the dutch papers today : "I'm not riding any faster than I did in the first week. The rest is just riding a whole lot slower".

Same goes for Hesjedal I think, 3rd week riders who simply recuperate better. The wattages stay the same if I look at kruijswijks strava file.
And even then, they are pretty low.
This just confirms that Landa is not quite the new Contador and Contador himself is not yet in mutant mode though it was pretty impressive how he motored past the whole field on Mortirolo after TTing on the flat.
 
Re:

Dekker_Tifosi said:
Kruijswijk said in the dutch papers today : "I'm not riding any faster than I did in the first week. The rest is just riding a whole lot slower".

Same goes for Hesjedal I think, 3rd week riders who simply recuperate better. The wattages stay the same if I look at kruijswijks strava file.
And even then, they are pretty low.
This is why people quoting power numbers without any analysis is dumb. Riders get tired. At the end of a 3 week stage race, 6 watts per kilo is a very different story than it is in week 1. For example.

This has been, by all accounts, a Giro which has been ridden incredibly hard. Putting out a ride like Landa did today is beyond suspicious, despite any numbers.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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the question with Astana is: if five positives among teammates last year doesn't scare them off, what does?
other question is: what or who is giving Landa that edge?
is he a loner?
Ferrari?
 
Landa is in a way comparable to Froome 2011, of course keeping the proportions since this guy could climb and his TT is still crap. But in both cases the magic happens before contract expires and they both put their leaders to shame. There
are a few more fun stages to come. Froome never got caught, I don't see a reason why Landa might get caught.
 
It's true that the field is not particularly strong, and it's true that the watt figures aren't necessarily that impressive. However, let's not forget what Dekker_Tifosi hinted at and what red flanders said: that the pace in this race has been absolutely murderous from the very beginning. It's been a ridiculously hard GT so far, and that naturally should have an impact both on the W/kg figures but also on the kind of rider who can end up near the front. Maybe those names aren't necessarily the kind we'd expect to be fighting for the podium, the top 5 or whatever, but that doesn't necessarily mean much in terms of how easy it is to beat them (meaning that arguments like "Landa isn't that impressive because he only beat so and so by this much", or even "Contador isn't that great here because look at the riders he isn't dropping" might well be flawed).

The pace thing is not magic, though. The outliers are still too out there to be plausible (so no "Landa's performance is logical, he's just a true endurance GT kind of rider" arguments despite what I said above. And yes, this means it's very subjective. It can't be any other way).
 
Re:

Rollthedice said:
Landa is in a way comparable to Froome 2011, of course keeping the proportions since this guy could climb and his TT is still crap. But in both cases the magic happens before contract expires and they both put their leaders to shame. There
are a few more fun stages to come. Froome never got caught, I don't see a reason why Landa might get caught.
He strikes me as more of a Kohl, a bit player who finally decided to go big.

Only time will tell if he is as clever/crazy as the Froome-dawg.
 
the thing that's most striking about Landa is that he was the very rider dishing out the murderous pace in the opening week. he was on the front for awhile on stage 4 and was the only guy who could stay with Porte/Contador/Aru on the three stages where they broke free, pacing them on the front for two of those stages and breaking away from them on the other. if you take out the time trial he's easily been the strongest rider in the race.
 
Re: Re:

LaFlorecita said:
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
LaFlorecita said:
T_S_A_R said:
The stage was epic today but according to Vetooo Contador was only at 5.8W/kg up Mortirolo and at 45:16 was slower than Nibali, Scarponi and Basso in 2010 who went up in 44:39 (and had the benefit of the Liqiguas train for a while IIRC?)

Landa is much stronger than we have ever seen him but I don't think he did anything eye popping today. Compared to the previous three Tours and four Vueltas this hasn't been too alien.
Agree, we must not forget the field is very low quality. Contador is the only top GT contender in "okay" shape, and even he is looking quite mediocre.
OK, didnt know that. :rolleyes:
Sarcasm or you don't agree? Kruijswijk and Trofimov are the 3rd and 4th best climber, lol
That doesn't mean that much. Riders can improve, others can lose their ability.

If for instance I told you that Chris Horner was the best climber in the 2013 Vuelta, that itself would suggest it was a very weak field. In reality it was a very fast gt in which they broke a few ascent records.
 
May 26, 2009
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Today was a great show. I'm just glad that Vaughters got everyone to stop doping in 2006 otherwise today would have been ridiculous.
 
Mar 12, 2009
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Re:

BYOP88 said:
Today was a great show. I'm just glad that Vaughters got everyone to stop doping in 2006 otherwise today would have been ridiculous.
So funny :D

Last time Giro mountain stages were won back to back, was by....

SELLA! :eek:
 
Oct 6, 2009
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Re:

Moose McKnuckles said:
Astana may be drinking at the last chance saloon, but they're not shy about racking up a huge tab.
Particularly when you consider that this is the B team, softening up Berto in preparation for Nibali taking on AC, Quintana, Froome in July.

On a side note, the Russian Leipheimer is getting on my nerves.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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If that´s the "B-Team", what is the A-Team then?... and please don´t come up with Mr-T. He has so much up and downs, a rollercoaster is nothing in comparison.

In reality, AST has as an "A-Team" at start as an "A-Team" can be. With no less than 6 more likely 7 riders being capable of doing or already had high T-20 placings in a GT before this Giro.
 
Re:

FoxxyBrown1111 said:
If that´s the "B-Team", what is the A-Team then?... and please don´t come up with Mr-T. He has so much up and downs, a rollercoaster is nothing in comparison.

In reality, AST has as an "A-Team" at start as an "A-Team" can be. With no less than 6 more likely 7 riders being capable of doing or already had high T-20 placings in a GT before this Giro.
I agree. Many have said that this is their B-team, but I think in fact that it is better than their Tour team. At least in terms of climbing abilities.
 
Re: Re:

irondan said:
SeriousSam said:
If Contador outclimbed Pantani, I'm going to start having doubts he's on pan y agua. But until such time, let us marvel at the credible climbing at display here.
From http://www.climbing-records.com
Contador, the fastest time on Mortirolo 2015

Mortirolo
2015:11,7 km km@11,1%---45:16---average speed 15.54 km/h(Alberto Contador)
2010:11,7 km km@11,1%---44:39---average speed 15.72 km/h(Basso-Nibali-Scarponi)
---45:34---average speed 15.41 km/h(Alexandre Vinokourov)
---45:58---average speed 15.27 km/h(Sastre-Gadret)
---46:21---average speed 15.15 km/h(Cadel Evans)
---46:34---average speed 15.08 km/h(David Arroyo)
2008:11,7 km km@11,1%---46:12---average speed 15.19 km/h(Sella-Ricco-Contador-Rodriguez-Pozzovivo-Menchov-Simoni)
---46:37---average speed 15.06 km/h(Bruseghin-Van Den Broeck)
---47:06---average speed 14.90 km/h(Pellizotti-Valjavec)
---47:36---average speed 14.75 km/h(Danilo Di Luca)
2006:11,7 km km@11,1%---44:32---average speed 15.76 km/h(Basso-Simoni)(source: Frederic Portoleau)
---45:40---average speed 15.37 km/h(Jose Enrique Gutierrez)
---45:42---average speed 15.36 km/h(Damiano Cunego)
---46:20---average speed 15.15 km/h(Leonardo Piepoli)
---48:14---average speed 14.55 km/h(Savoldelli-G.Caruso-Garate-Casar)
2004:11,7 km km@11,1%---47:30---average speed 14.78 km/h(Simoni-Garzelli-Valjavec) (source: Frederic Portoleau)
---48:15---average speed 14.55 km/h(Cunego-10 riders group)
1999:11,7 km km@11,1%---41:42---average speed 16.83 km/h(Gotti-Heras-Simoni)-RECORD
---43:03---average speed 16.31 km/h(Niklas Axelsson)
---43:56---average speed 15.98 km/h(Codol-De Paoli)
---43:59---average speed 15.96 km/h(Laurent Jalabert)
---44:34---average speed 15.75 km/h(Honchar-Camenzind-Mason)
---44:45---average speed 15.69 km/h(Savoldelli-Virenque)
1997:11,7 km km@11,1%---45:13---average speed 15.53 km/h(Belli-Gotti-Tonkov)
---46:19---average speed 15.16 km/h(Miceli-Noe)
1996:11,7 km km@11,1%---42:07---average speed 16.67 km/h(Gotti-Tonkov)
---42:45---average speed 16.43 km/h(Ugrumov-Zaina)
---44:29---average speed 15.78 km/h(Abraham Olano)
1994:11,7 km km@11,1%---42:40---average speed 16.45 km/h(Marco Pantani)
---43:33---average speed 16.12 km/h(Miguel Indurain)
---44:21---average speed 15.83 km/h(Evgeni Berzin)
---45:07---average speed 15.56 km/h(Nelson Rodriguez)
---45:12---average speed 15.53 km/h(Pavel Tonkov)
Thanks.

I couldn't help it but to laugh at the 1996, 1994 times. 3 minutes faster???? How is that even possible?
 
Re:

sniper said:
the question with Astana is: if five positives among teammates last year doesn't scare them off, what does?
other question is: what or who is giving Landa that edge?
is he a loner?
Ferrari?
Vino got the 'white bags' mixed up - been giving Aru's to Landa
 
Re: Re:

Escarabajo said:
irondan said:
SeriousSam said:
If Contador outclimbed Pantani, I'm going to start having doubts he's on pan y agua. But until such time, let us marvel at the credible climbing at display here.
From http://www.climbing-records.com
Contador, the fastest time on Mortirolo 2015

Mortirolo
2015:11,7 km km@11,1%---45:16---average speed 15.54 km/h(Alberto Contador)
2010:11,7 km km@11,1%---44:39---average speed 15.72 km/h(Basso-Nibali-Scarponi)
---45:34---average speed 15.41 km/h(Alexandre Vinokourov)
---45:58---average speed 15.27 km/h(Sastre-Gadret)
---46:21---average speed 15.15 km/h(Cadel Evans)
---46:34---average speed 15.08 km/h(David Arroyo)
2008:11,7 km km@11,1%---46:12---average speed 15.19 km/h(Sella-Ricco-Contador-Rodriguez-Pozzovivo-Menchov-Simoni)
---46:37---average speed 15.06 km/h(Bruseghin-Van Den Broeck)
---47:06---average speed 14.90 km/h(Pellizotti-Valjavec)
---47:36---average speed 14.75 km/h(Danilo Di Luca)
2006:11,7 km km@11,1%---44:32---average speed 15.76 km/h(Basso-Simoni)(source: Frederic Portoleau)
---45:40---average speed 15.37 km/h(Jose Enrique Gutierrez)
---45:42---average speed 15.36 km/h(Damiano Cunego)
---46:20---average speed 15.15 km/h(Leonardo Piepoli)
---48:14---average speed 14.55 km/h(Savoldelli-G.Caruso-Garate-Casar)
2004:11,7 km km@11,1%---47:30---average speed 14.78 km/h(Simoni-Garzelli-Valjavec) (source: Frederic Portoleau)
---48:15---average speed 14.55 km/h(Cunego-10 riders group)
1999:11,7 km km@11,1%---41:42---average speed 16.83 km/h(Gotti-Heras-Simoni)-RECORD
---43:03---average speed 16.31 km/h(Niklas Axelsson)
---43:56---average speed 15.98 km/h(Codol-De Paoli)
---43:59---average speed 15.96 km/h(Laurent Jalabert)
---44:34---average speed 15.75 km/h(Honchar-Camenzind-Mason)
---44:45---average speed 15.69 km/h(Savoldelli-Virenque)
1997:11,7 km km@11,1%---45:13---average speed 15.53 km/h(Belli-Gotti-Tonkov)
---46:19---average speed 15.16 km/h(Miceli-Noe)
1996:11,7 km km@11,1%---42:07---average speed 16.67 km/h(Gotti-Tonkov)
---42:45---average speed 16.43 km/h(Ugrumov-Zaina)
---44:29---average speed 15.78 km/h(Abraham Olano)
1994:11,7 km km@11,1%---42:40---average speed 16.45 km/h(Marco Pantani)
---43:33---average speed 16.12 km/h(Miguel Indurain)
---44:21---average speed 15.83 km/h(Evgeni Berzin)
---45:07---average speed 15.56 km/h(Nelson Rodriguez)
---45:12---average speed 15.53 km/h(Pavel Tonkov)
Thanks.

I couldn't help it but to laugh at the 1996, 1994 times. 3 minutes faster???? How is that even possible?
Indurain's is particularly fantastic. Less than a minute back of Pantani, and the guy is 175 pounds. Great stuff.
 

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