Stage 16: Pinzolo – Aprica 177 kms: Clinic version

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Re: Re:

red_flanders said:
T_S_A_R said:
The stage was epic today but according to Vetooo Contador was only at 5.8W/kg up Mortirolo and at 45:16 was slower than Nibali, Scarponi and Basso in 2010 who went up in 44:39 (and had the benefit of the Liqiguas train for a while IIRC?)

Landa is much stronger than we have ever seen him but I don't think he did anything eye popping today. Compared to the previous three Tours and four Vueltas this hasn't been too alien.
Other than crush the entire field, all of whom have actually ridden this race, at the speed it's been ridden, over this pacours.

The numbers are always somewhat interesting, but one has to temper them with what you see with your eyes. His ride was enough to hammer a clearly on-form Contador.

Which is absurd.
IMO the fact that Landa can stay with Contador and even ride away (although Contador was tired, of course) is proof that Contador is not (yet) in good form. I think he is in decent shape but nothing extraordinary.

Of course Landa made a massive improvement either way, but I don't think Contador is riding at let's say Vuelta 2014 level
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Re: Re:

LaFlorecita said:
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
LaFlorecita said:
T_S_A_R said:
The stage was epic today but according to Vetooo Contador was only at 5.8W/kg up Mortirolo and at 45:16 was slower than Nibali, Scarponi and Basso in 2010 who went up in 44:39 (and had the benefit of the Liqiguas train for a while IIRC?)

Landa is much stronger than we have ever seen him but I don't think he did anything eye popping today. Compared to the previous three Tours and four Vueltas this hasn't been too alien.
Agree, we must not forget the field is very low quality. Contador is the only top GT contender in "okay" shape, and even he is looking quite mediocre.
OK, didnt know that. :rolleyes:
Sarcasm or you don't agree? Kruijswijk and Trofimov are the 3rd and 4th best climber, lol
Today Kruijswijk & Trofimov were around the best at that very Giro stage. And both did good at the TdF as well (being well inside T-20, next to guys like Ten Dam).
Who in this world came up with the idea that only the TdF fields the top climbers? It could not be further from reality. In these days, GT riders of highest quality are present in all three GTs. A fact.
 
May 31, 2011
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I disagree. I think Contador could have dropped him fairly easy if he had to. If today's effort was Contador's max level he would be as well not turning up to the Tour.

Landa has made a jump but it's a jump we have seen many times before.
 
Les wait until stages 18 and 19, when Landa will be the marked man and, hopefully, it won't be a mechanical that separates the peloton, before we judge him too harshly. Today was exceptionally, let's see if he remains that way...
 
May 31, 2011
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Re:

T_S_A_R said:
I disagree. I think Contador could have dropped him fairly easy if he had to. If today's effort was Contador's max level he would be as well not turning up to the Tour.

Landa has made a jump but it's a jump we have seen many times before.
Only one of the top 6 GC riders is at this Giro.

Without Nibali, Froome, Valverde, Purito and Quintana it is a second class field.
 
Re: Stage 16: Pinzolo – Aprica 177 kms:Where legends are mad

ChewbaccaDefense said:
we need to start mirror stage threads in The Clinic...because seriously, are you watching this sh!t? Sadly, I think we need to just move all race threads to The Clinic from now on, because not being able to talk doping on them in the Professional Road Racing section is just denial.
Just go back where you are happiest and discuss it there. Leave us in peace :)

EDIT:::: LMAO how did I end up in the clinic? Sorry, carry on.......
EDIT: Please don't use the Same thread name...that is how I ended up here :(
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Re: Re:

T_S_A_R said:
T_S_A_R said:
I disagree. I think Contador could have dropped him fairly easy if he had to. If today's effort was Contador's max level he would be as well not turning up to the Tour.

Landa has made a jump but it's a jump we have seen many times before.
Only one of the top 6 GC riders is at this Giro.

Without Nibali, Froome, Valverde, Purito and Quintana it is a second class field.
And yet this field has the No 1, 7, 8, whatever.... Wouldn´t call that "2nd class". For me that sounds world class when the best 10-something of the best in the world battle it out.
And how do you judge JRod or Valv-Piti above some of the guys taking part at this Giro? Enlighten me. We don´t know for example how Landa would go against JRod in a GT if unleashed...
So basically your "T-6" comes down to coffee cup reading...
 
Re: Re:

LaFlorecita said:
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
LaFlorecita said:
T_S_A_R said:
The stage was epic today but according to Vetooo Contador was only at 5.8W/kg up Mortirolo and at 45:16 was slower than Nibali, Scarponi and Basso in 2010 who went up in 44:39 (and had the benefit of the Liqiguas train for a while IIRC?)

Landa is much stronger than we have ever seen him but I don't think he did anything eye popping today. Compared to the previous three Tours and four Vueltas this hasn't been too alien.
Agree, we must not forget the field is very low quality. Contador is the only top GT contender in "okay" shape, and even he is looking quite mediocre.
OK, didnt know that. :rolleyes:
Sarcasm or you don't agree? Kruijswijk and Trofimov are the 3rd and 4th best climber, lol
It doesn't matter. There were still 1 1/2 competitive climbers up to now. Landa and Aru. That's enough for a race. A race on the toughest terrain, the toughest weather, the toughest streets. As long as there's a challenge, the Giro is always the hardest race. No matter if there are 5 equal riders involved or only 2 1/2!
 
Re: Re:

staubsauger said:
It doesn't matter. There were still 1 1/2 competitive climbers up to now. Landa and Aru. That's enough for a race. A race on the toughest terrain, the toughest weather, the toughest streets. As long as there's a challenge, the Giro is always the hardest race. No matter if there are 5 equal riders involved or only 2 1/2!
How is this relevant? :confused:
 
May 18, 2015
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Re:

T_S_A_R said:
The stage was epic today but according to Vetooo Contador was only at 5.8W/kg up Mortirolo and at 45:16 was slower than Nibali, Scarponi and Basso in 2010 who went up in 44:39 (and had the benefit of the Liqiguas train for a while IIRC?)

Landa is much stronger than we have ever seen him but I don't think he did anything eye popping today. Compared to the previous three Tours and four Vueltas this hasn't been too alien.
Are you sure about that? He put 40" into Contador in less than 4K of false flat. Would have been close to a minute if he was going full gas through the finish, and not celebrating. Now I don't think Landa can get 4' in the remaining stages, but I wouldn't be surprised if he finishes less than 2' in the end.
 
Re:

T_S_A_R said:
The stage was epic today but according to Vetooo Contador was only at 5.8W/kg up Mortirolo and at 45:16 was slower than Nibali, Scarponi and Basso in 2010 who went up in 44:39 (and had the benefit of the Liqiguas train for a while IIRC?)

Landa is much stronger than we have ever seen him but I don't think he did anything eye popping today. Compared to the previous three Tours and four Vueltas this hasn't been too alien.
And minutes slower than guys 15-20 years ago. Very dissapointing. Somany hints and promises were made how they are all going berserk after restday. But so slow. Poor Aru, I dont know what they are giving him in Astana, but it is not working if Indurain (who weighed half a ton) was 20 years ago 10% quicker than guys like Aru today.
 
Apr 3, 2011
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Landa finishing slowly, celebrating... now imagine if they unleashed him right from the start of Morti, he could do over 2 min in Aprica if Bertie just limited the losses and did not go full genius.
 
Re: Re:

FoxxyBrown1111 said:
T_S_A_R said:
T_S_A_R said:
I disagree. I think Contador could have dropped him fairly easy if he had to. If today's effort was Contador's max level he would be as well not turning up to the Tour.

Landa has made a jump but it's a jump we have seen many times before.
Only one of the top 6 GC riders is at this Giro.

Without Nibali, Froome, Valverde, Purito and Quintana it is a second class field.
And yet this field has the No 1, 7, 8, whatever.... Wouldn´t call that "2nd class". For me that sounds world class when the best 10-something of the best in the world battle it out.
And how do you judge JRod or Valv-Piti above some of the guys taking part at this Giro? Enlighten me. We don´t know for example how Landa would go against JRod in a GT if unleashed...
So basically your "T-6" comes down to coffee cup reading...

long meandering post....

AC had chased his butt off up a mountain by the time he got to Landa, I think AC may test himself just for the purposes of checking himself only on Saturday on a stage where it lays out a little more neatly, barring punctures, etc.

But Astana imo has gone quite a bit beyond pushing the envelope, imo. That's just to my eye. What do I know!? ESPN showed the 30 for 30 of Ben Johnson and the Seoul Olympics last night, 9.79 (Johnson's speed in 100m) and the travails of like 6 or 7 of the other sprinters in the same final who all were later busted over the years for PED related offenses, including Johnson for a 2nd time and a lifetime ban. Johnson in Seoul had basically gone full genius on ped's in the prior couple years leading up to it. Sounds like Astana to me. Can they at least look tired after racing up a mountain??? Reminds of an American I saw in a fil called Stop at Nothing where he attacked and never seemed gassed...

I am really not out to disparage cycling, I love it, but I often wonder why all race threads don't end up precisely here, in the clinic. You can't talk about Tennis without dope, Track and field, Football (any flavor), baseball, anywhere where people are getting WELL paid is rife with ped abuse. That's the world we live in, cycling somehow is the poster child which to me is hypocrisy at its finest. And truly a shame, because of its beauty. I can go on and on and on, and usually do.

But the rules are no dope talk outside of here and 'dem's da roolz'. Whatever. Their board, their rules. I just find it silly.
 
Aug 31, 2012
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Because unlike other sports, cycling involves little to no skill that doping doesn't directly improve. You dope, the other guy doesn't, you gain minutes relative to the other guy, it's as simple as that.

This leads to doping talk crowding out the other talk in in cycling in a way it doesn't for other sports. In other sports, people are either ignorant and think they're all clean or they think they all dope but it doesn't matter much because fitness isn't everything those sports are about. Either way, there's not much discussion. By contrast in cycling, almost everything that happens in a race is discussed in terms of how much riders are doping or how they are responding to dope.

I think having separate forums addresses the crowding out problem quite well
 

Irondan

Administrator
Moderator
Re:

SeriousSam said:
If Contador outclimbed Pantani, I'm going to start having doubts he's on pan y agua. But until such time, let us marvel at the credible climbing at display here.
From www.climbing-records.com
Contador, the fastest time on Mortirolo 2015

Mortirolo
2015:11,7 km km@11,1%---45:16---average speed 15.54 km/h(Alberto Contador)
2010:11,7 km km@11,1%---44:39---average speed 15.72 km/h(Basso-Nibali-Scarponi)
---45:34---average speed 15.41 km/h(Alexandre Vinokourov)
---45:58---average speed 15.27 km/h(Sastre-Gadret)
---46:21---average speed 15.15 km/h(Cadel Evans)
---46:34---average speed 15.08 km/h(David Arroyo)
2008:11,7 km km@11,1%---46:12---average speed 15.19 km/h(Sella-Ricco-Contador-Rodriguez-Pozzovivo-Menchov-Simoni)
---46:37---average speed 15.06 km/h(Bruseghin-Van Den Broeck)
---47:06---average speed 14.90 km/h(Pellizotti-Valjavec)
---47:36---average speed 14.75 km/h(Danilo Di Luca)
2006:11,7 km km@11,1%---44:32---average speed 15.76 km/h(Basso-Simoni)(source: Frederic Portoleau)
---45:40---average speed 15.37 km/h(Jose Enrique Gutierrez)
---45:42---average speed 15.36 km/h(Damiano Cunego)
---46:20---average speed 15.15 km/h(Leonardo Piepoli)
---48:14---average speed 14.55 km/h(Savoldelli-G.Caruso-Garate-Casar)
2004:11,7 km km@11,1%---47:30---average speed 14.78 km/h(Simoni-Garzelli-Valjavec) (source: Frederic Portoleau)
---48:15---average speed 14.55 km/h(Cunego-10 riders group)
1999:11,7 km km@11,1%---41:42---average speed 16.83 km/h(Gotti-Heras-Simoni)-RECORD
---43:03---average speed 16.31 km/h(Niklas Axelsson)
---43:56---average speed 15.98 km/h(Codol-De Paoli)
---43:59---average speed 15.96 km/h(Laurent Jalabert)
---44:34---average speed 15.75 km/h(Honchar-Camenzind-Mason)
---44:45---average speed 15.69 km/h(Savoldelli-Virenque)
1997:11,7 km km@11,1%---45:13---average speed 15.53 km/h(Belli-Gotti-Tonkov)
---46:19---average speed 15.16 km/h(Miceli-Noe)
1996:11,7 km km@11,1%---42:07---average speed 16.67 km/h(Gotti-Tonkov)
---42:45---average speed 16.43 km/h(Ugrumov-Zaina)
---44:29---average speed 15.78 km/h(Abraham Olano)
1994:11,7 km km@11,1%---42:40---average speed 16.45 km/h(Marco Pantani)
---43:33---average speed 16.12 km/h(Miguel Indurain)
---44:21---average speed 15.83 km/h(Evgeni Berzin)
---45:07---average speed 15.56 km/h(Nelson Rodriguez)
---45:12---average speed 15.53 km/h(Pavel Tonkov)
 
Re:

SeriousSam said:
Because unlike other sports, cycling involves little to no skill that doping doesn't directly improve. You dope, the other guy doesn't, you gain minutes relative to the other guy, it's as simple as that.

This leads to doping talk crowding out the other talk in in cycling in a way it doesn't for other sports. In other sports, people are either ignorant and think they're all clean or they think they all dope but it doesn't matter much because fitness isn't everything those sports are about. Either way, there's not much discussion. By contrast in cycling, almost everything that happens in a race is discussed in terms of how much riders are doping or how they are responding to dope.

I think having separate forums addresses the crowding out problem quite well
track and field. but I get your point we can't just be yapping about doping endlessly
 
Apr 9, 2014
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Landa on dat dere celltech.

Na serious, guy obviously has talent and raw ability but it's very very obvious he's on the gear...at least he's great to watch and his natural ability compliments whatever he's on, not like Froome
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Re: Re:

ggusta said:
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Fernandez said:
Landa... This guy was nobody a year ago. Now is the best climber in the world. ?????????????
Sure, if you started to follow cycling this year...
If you followed the stage thread you'd think some of them started to follow cycling TODAY.
No I didnt, so how about... somebody followed cycling since T O M O R R O W ? :p
 
Mar 31, 2010
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hesjedal has an incredible engine, only it'sa very slow diesel. he needs 3 weeks of very hard racing and attacking everywhere until he gets in super form compared to all other riders tiring
 
Kruijswijk said in the dutch papers today : "I'm not riding any faster than I did in the first week. The rest is just riding a whole lot slower".

Same goes for Hesjedal I think, 3rd week riders who simply recuperate better. The wattages stay the same if I look at kruijswijks strava file.
And even then, they are pretty low.
 

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